Always a body catcher

[dogunwo]

Yah you're right, Fuzzy knows more about being a receiver then Michael Irvin. Gotcha!

I referenced his post because he already answered your question on why it matters. Coaches from Pop-Warner level up teach you to catch with your hands, not your body. You don't have to have played in the NFL to know this. You are confusing the issue anyway, no one said he can't catch, you have just been given reasons on why he could be so much better.

 

[Gameover]

Williams often gets out muscled when trying to jump for the ball. He's a low percentage threat when in traffic. He's at his best when wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiddddddddddddddeeeeeeeeeee open.

He actually does some things better than Bryant. More crafty, better at getting open.

 

[PhillyCowboysFan]

Listen, let me prefaces this post by stating that we do need a better WR2.

I referenced his post because he already answered your question on why it matters.

Because Fuzzy says so is why it matters? what this quote.....

The problem is that because he doesn't stretch out for passes he doesn't high point balls which is a huge need for outside receivers. It severely limit his catch radius.

I don't think that there is any receiver that has caught more balls with there body then Michael Irvin and Randy Moss. Again I am not comparing Terrance with these guys. They bring so much more to the table.

or this quote....

Neither of those are him high pointing the ball. Neither was even over his head. He jumps to catch the ball the only problem is he is breaking stride to body catch it. Anyway this is high pointing the ball..

Then Fuzzy shows two vids of Dez and Emmanuel high pointing the ball. The problem is that in both vids the receivers breaks off his stride. Completely against what Fuzzy is advocating. Two very bad examples to show. Dez is in the back of the endzone so there is no stride and Emmanuel totally breaks of his stride to high catch the ball which resulted in no YAC after because he had to high catch the ball. Really, LOL!

I am simply stating that its not because of Terrance Williams preference of body catching as per Michael Irvin, but to what else could be wrong with him. Is it the QB's accuracy? Is it his jumping ability? Is it lack of physical skills? Is it his speed? Is it his route running? Is it his lack of chemistry with the QB? Is it the system? Is it his confidence? Is it the QB's confidence? Is it all of the above? I don't know but in my opinion body catching is at the bottom of the list.

The Cowboys drafted him knowing that he was a body catcher. That means he had played all through Pop Warner, Middle School, High School and college catching that way. I don't believe that they thought they were going to change that. And why should they when all through college he had gotten more productive every year leading up to his senior year of 97 catches, 1800 yards and 12 TD. That's very impressive on any level against any competition.

So no "dogunwa" I'm not confusing the issue as you and Fuzzy's issue with Terrance is at the bottom of my list and it seems that it might be at the bottom of you know, that NFL Hall of Fame Wide Receiver Michael Irvin's list also. So far Terrance Williams leaves a lot to be desired in a NFL WR and it will not matter after this season as he will must likely be gone.

 

[dogunwo]

Listen, let me prefaces this post by stating that we do need a better WR2.



Because Fuzzy says so is why it matters? what this quote.....



I don't think that there is any receiver that has caught more balls with there body then Michael Irvin and Randy Moss. Again I am not comparing Terrance with these guys. They bring so much more to the table.

or this quote....



Then Fuzzy shows two vids of Dez and Emmanuel high pointing the ball. The problem is that in both vids the receivers breaks off his stride. Completely against what Fuzzy is advocating. Two very bad examples to show. Dez is in the back of the endzone so there is no stride and Emmanuel totally breaks of his stride to high catch the ball which resulted in no YAC after because he had to high catch the ball. Really, LOL!

I am simply stating that its not because of Terrance Williams preference of body catching as per Michael Irvin, but to what else could be wrong with him. Is it the QB's accuracy? Is it his jumping ability? Is it lack of physical skills? Is it his speed? Is it his route running? Is it his lack of chemistry with the QB? Is it the system? Is it his confidence? Is it the QB's confidence? Is it all of the above? I don't know but in my opinion body catching is at the bottom of the list.

The Cowboys drafted him knowing that he was a body catcher. That means he had played all through Pop Warner, Middle School, High School and college catching that way. I don't believe that they thought they were going to change that. And why should they when all through college he had gotten more productive every year leading up to his senior year of 97 catches, 1800 yards and 12 TD. That's very impressive on any level against any competition.

So no "dogunwa" I'm not confusing the issue as you and Fuzzy's issue with Terrance is at the bottom of my list and it seems that it might be at the bottom of you know, that NFL Hall of Fame Wide Receiver Michael Irvin's list also. So far Terrance Williams leaves a lot to be desired in a NFL WR and it will not matter after this season as he will must likely be gone.

I truly understand your point. Really, I do. Fuzzy is right in the sense that it isn't just his opinion. That's common football knowledge on why it is better to catch with your hands and not your body. The average football fan knows this, this is why he is always criticized for it. Can he still be a good receiver? Sure. But my point is he could be better if he uses basic WR fundamentals.
The WRs you named are all pro level talent. Terrance is not. So he is less likely to be as successful not following proper technique. Of course Michael Irvin would not have a problem with it, he was elite. That would be like Brett Farve teaching his style of play at a QB camp because it worked for him, not having great fundamentals.

 

[PhillyCowboysFan]

I truly understand your point. Really, I do. Fuzzy is right in the sense that it isn't just his opinion. That's common football knowledge on why it is better to catch with your hands and not your body. The average football fan knows this, this is why he is always criticized for it. Can he still be a good receiver? Sure. But my point is he could be better if he uses basic WR fundamentals.
The WRs you named are all pro level talent. Terrance is not. So he is less likely to be as successful not following proper technique. Of course Michael Irvin would not have a problem with it, he was elite. That would be like Brett Farve teaching his style of play at a QB camp because it worked for him, not having great fundamentals.

Yes, yes and yes. I totally agree with everything you just stated, he would be a better receiver if he caught with his hands. But in my opinion there is a lot more missing. I'm not sure what, but I know it's something. It's my opinion for this to be a complaint or focus of a debate, is selling short other issues or limitations he or our offensive system has. Again the way he catches the ball is so far down my list I don't even think it matters.

Let's look at it this way, in hypotheticals. Let's just say he catches the ball in the so called "right way". Do you or anyone else on this forum really believes that he would be that much better, if better at all? My opinion is nope! Wouldn't make a difference. We would still be here at this same place talking about an upgrade at his position.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There are body catchers and there are body catcher critics and there are body catcher whiners. However, I'll take the big plays he has shown he can make.
He and Butler will compete for who they will keep, as both will be FA's, if they keep either.
Then the critics can move on to their next victim or still whine about the same.

Those 3 TD are the 'big plays he has shown he can make.' He had more opportunity last year than he has ever had in his career.

Characterizing as whining is a favorite deflection and trying to claim the complaint is only about his poor catch radius is gratuitous but made made of straw.

There is also the disappearing act he pulls every year. Showing up for only have lf the games each year is a significant issue that I want upgraded.

I'm not saying give his job to Butler either. I am not big on zero sum reasoning like that but I do want the position upgraded to improve performance of the team. We went 4-12 last year and couldn't score points despite an effective running game. That is not all on the QB.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Listen, let me prefaces this post by stating that we do need a better WR2.



Because Fuzzy says so is why it matters? what this quote.....



I don't think that there is any receiver that has caught more balls with there body then Michael Irvin and Randy Moss. Again I am not comparing Terrance with these guys. They bring so much more to the table.

or this quote....



Then Fuzzy shows two vids of Dez and Emmanuel high pointing the ball. The problem is that in both vids the receivers breaks off his stride. Completely against what Fuzzy is advocating. Two very bad examples to show. Dez is in the back of the endzone so there is no stride and Emmanuel totally breaks of his stride to high catch the ball which resulted in no YAC after because he had to high catch the ball. Really, LOL!

I am simply stating that its not because of Terrance Williams preference of body catching as per Michael Irvin, but to what else could be wrong with him. Is it the QB's accuracy? Is it his jumping ability? Is it lack of physical skills? Is it his speed? Is it his route running? Is it his lack of chemistry with the QB? Is it the system? Is it his confidence? Is it the QB's confidence? Is it all of the above? I don't know but in my opinion body catching is at the bottom of the list.

The Cowboys drafted him knowing that he was a body catcher. That means he had played all through Pop Warner, Middle School, High School and college catching that way. I don't believe that they thought they were going to change that. And why should they when all through college he had gotten more productive every year leading up to his senior year of 97 catches, 1800 yards and 12 TD. That's very impressive on any level against any competition.

So no "dogunwa" I'm not confusing the issue as you and Fuzzy's issue with Terrance is at the bottom of my list and it seems that it might be at the bottom of you know, that NFL Hall of Fame Wide Receiver Michael Irvin's list also. So far Terrance Williams leaves a lot to be desired in a NFL WR and it will not matter after this season as he will must likely be gone.

There is difference between body catching in certain instances to say shield the ball from a defender and body catching because your hands are small and you cannot snatch the ball out of the air.

There is a also a difference between breaking stride to go over the top to make a play and breaking stride when you could just reach up and snatch the ball out of the air to keep running. When he jumps in the air so the pass will hit him in the chest and he can body catch it I can only roll my eyes.

IF you don't want to improve the weakest link on offense then that is fine. I like to win though so I will continue to call for improvement.

 

[CowboyChris]

one thing i can say for TWill, he's good at getting his feet in bounds, it seems a lot of his catches come from scrambles or broken plays, either he isn't getting open or he is the 2nd or 3rd option on alot of plays.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There is also how he loses speed during his breaks. I really noticed it last year when Dez started playing his position and gave a comparison with the type of athleticism one wants at the position.

One of the staples of the Coryell offense is for the X, or split end, to run a comeback or curl. The X is alone in a base formation out there and the comeback is designed to keep the coverage underneath for potential crossing routes from the Y and Z on the strong side of the formation.

Put simply, TWill is not explosive out of his breaks. The comeback highlights this because you have to completely turnaround from your original direction of travel and create new momentum at the top of the route. Dez literally explodes from the top of the route and creates tremendous separation. When TWill does it he does so with poor burst.

TWill makes his money off of the post and the deep in and out. Both staple throws but also routes which he can transfer momentum during his cut as opposed to having to stop and start again. If has to run a comeback or makes multiple turns like in a double move then he loses too much speed to remain effective and lacks the burst to recover.

He isn't very good at the fade because if the coverage is decent he cannot go over the top on a high throw to go and get it. He is a very limited receiver and it leads him to disappearing for long stretches both in games and within the season itself. I understand why Dez rushed back.

 

[KJJ]

No one would complain about Twill's body catching if he was more productive and showed up every week. It's just something to nitpick about because he's not more productive.

 

[big dog cowboy]

It won't surprise me if Brice Butler either pushes TWill to be a better WR or replaces him at some point.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No one would complain about Twill's body catching if he was more productive and showed up every week. It's just something to nitpick about because he's not more productive.

You can dismiss it if you like by calling it 'nitpicking' but it leads to drop balls and our QBs moving on in the progression because they know he cannot make a play. I prefer to mention it because unlike inherent talent like short area explosion, it's something you can work on in practice. It is very disappointing to me he has not improved.

I do like how you guys have gone with the groupthink routine using the same words and canned arguments.

 

[KJJ]

You can dismiss it if you like by calling it 'nitpicking' but it leads to drop balls and our QBs moving on in the progression because they know he cannot make a play. I prefer to mention it because unlike inherent talent like short area explosion, it's something you can work on in practice. It is very disappointing to me he has not improved.

I do like how you guys have gone with the groupthink routine using the same words and canned arguments.

Despite his body catching Twill does make plays and he's made some very big plays. Romo has looked for him in some critical situations. A couple of years ago someone posted a highlight reel of Romo and Twill was on the receiving end of some great plays at least 3 times.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Despite his body catching Twill does make plays and he's made some very big plays. Romo has looked for him in some critical situations. A couple of years ago someone posted a highlight reel of Romo and Twill was on the receiving end of some great plays at least 3 times.

He had 3 TD last year and disappeared for over half the season. I get the intrigue but the inconsistency is unacceptable. The writing seems on the wall to me. He does it again this year and he will be replaced one way or another.

 

[KJJ]

He had 3 TD last year and disappeared for over half the season. I get the intrigue but the inconsistency is unacceptable. The writing seems on the wall to me. He does it again this year and he will be replaced one way or another.

He had 3 TD's which was the same number of TD's as Jason Witten and he led the team with 840 receiving yards despite a poor QB situation. That 840 yards was a career high for Twill. Not having Dez on the field or having him 100% hurt him. All our receivers numbers were down due to our QB situation. Twill does disappear at times but his clutch plays will keep him in the lineup until a better option comes along.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He had 3 TD's which was the same number of TD's as Jason Witten and he led the team with 840 receiving yards despite a poor QB situation. That 840 yards was a career high for Twill. Not having Dez on the field or having him 100% hurt him. All our receivers numbers were down due to our QB situation. Twill does disappear at times but his clutch plays will keep him in the lineup until a better option comes along.

You're playing the bait and switch. You were talking about big plays and are now trying to change the subject.

Jason Witten is also in serious decline as regards to plays downfield; he used to own routes up the hash but not so much anymore.

 

[KJJ]

You're playing the bait and switch. You were talking about big plays and are now trying to change the subject.

Jason Witten is also in serious decline as regards to plays downfield; he used to own routes up the hash but not so much anymore.

I'm not changing the subject you're just looking to start another argument as usual. As long as Twill continues to show up in big games and make clutch plays he'll remain in the lineup. Once he stops doing that and continues to disappear the team will look to replace him.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not changing the subject you're just looking to start another argument as usual. As long as Twill continues to show up in big games and make clutch plays he'll remain in the lineup. Once he stops doing that and continues to disappear the team will look to replace him.

Just because he showed up in the GB loss with 3 whole catches does not exonerate him for the egg he laid the previous 8 weeks.

 

[PhillyCowboysFan]

IF you don't want to improve the weakest link on offense then that is fine. I like to win though so I will continue to call for improvement.

I in a nutshell have stated several times in my debate that Terrance Williams is not good and we need to do better. My debate was that his "body catching" is way down on my list of issues with him. I stated that I believe even if he had great hands, the other problems, issues or limitations he has, would not improve him that much.

 

[Craig]

If all you have to say about a guy as an insult is body catcher, hes not that bad. Let me know when the 3rd receiving option on the team(maybe 4th now) is known for drops...until then, ill deal with "the body catcher" while you cry every time the guy who belongs in the league as a #2 wide receiver makes a play.