An attempt to stop the help me understand threads

[Zordon]

Is it really necessary for you to just blindly put down or make an excuse for every other player we didn't take? 1/2 of your reasonings don't even make sense. So we couldn't pick ZBS guys because thats not what Callahan wants, but we also couldn't draft a big power guy like Warford? How does that make sense? Brennan Williams is hardly a ZBS only guy either.

Can't we just have a normal civil conversation without people either blindly defending everything the Cowboys did and without people overly bashing everything? Definitely some very good things in this draft and some very questionable as well. Is it that hard to admit this?

LOL man I was cracking up reading his post. I was like does this he really have an excuse for every single pick?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We could have gotten a slam dunk guaranteed starting G this year with Larry Warford in the 2nd round. Instead we upgraded Jason Witten's backup. Maybe.

So says you. The team obviously puts an emphasis on agility scores and Warford was downright awful in his performance there.

And why does Escobar get a maybe and Warford get inserted as if he is a sure thing?

 

[speedkilz88]

Is it really necessary for you to just blindly put down or make an excuse for every other player we didn't take? 1/2 of your reasonings don't even make sense. So we couldn't pick ZBS guys because thats not what Callahan wants, but we also couldn't draft a big power guy like Warford? How does that make sense? Brennan Williams is hardly a ZBS only guy either.

Can't we just have a normal civil conversation without people either blindly defending everything the Cowboys did and without people overly bashing everything? Definitely some very good things in this draft and some very questionable as well. Is it that hard to admit this?

You are reading what you want. Callahan didn't want him for his scheme. He and Frederick are not necessarily the exact same type of guy. They obviously didn't think Warford was even close to Frederick in ability since he was the last of the second round graded OL. But agility and intelligence and how the guy performed in interviews count a lot in their decisions also. If you listened to Broaddus and others on the cowboys website they made it clear that Warford wasn't what they were looking for.

Brennan Williams went late round 3. The Texans are going to have him rated higher because he fits their system better. Just like some teams didn't have Frederick rated as high as the Cowboys with ZBS teams liking Schwenke better.

 

[gimmesix]

A lost cause I am sure but here it goes.

For the trade down and passing on Floyd. He was not a playmaker and Marinelli did not want him.

Okay now for middle rounds.

Nobody we could get on OL or DT after the big run offer us more than Leary, Arkin, Kowalski, Price, Lissemore, Crawford, Bass, etc...we'd be basically churning.

Now is it better to churn depth or add valuable contributors at other positions?

If one can not see the difference both short and long term that Escobar, Williams, Randle, Wilcox, Webb and Holloman offer over project lineman to replace project lineman already in our system than you will never understand anything football related.

I'm not sure that helps anyone understand, since other teams took those DL and OL Dallas passed on, hoping they would make the same impact we hope Escobar, etc., will make.

What needs to be understood is Dallas wanted an offensive lineman badly early in the draft, so they took one. NEED

Dallas valued Escobar over any of the OL/DL available. Same can be said of Williams. BPA (most likely)

Kiffin badly wanted a safety, so they got him one. NEED

Corner wasn't a big need, but they added one anyway over bigger needs. BPA

Backup RB was definitely something Dallas went shopping for, and it got good value. NEED

Then, they threw Kiffin another bone and got him a small LB for his scheme. NEED

And that's what the draft is, a combination of needs and drafting your draft board. Sometimes the draft board triumphs and sometimes teams just feel the pull of a need more. This is not unique to Dallas and the sooner people understand that, the more at peace they will be with what happens in the draft.

 

[Beast_from_East]

All of this comes down to one single thing..........is Frederick a good center?


If he can give Romo an extra second in the pocket and open some holes for Murray, I really don't give a crap what round he was selected in.

 

[CF74]

A Frederick/Warford 1-2 would have been a serious upgrade for this team.

That's exactly what I was hoping for and totally hate the TE pick...
Apparently they feel we are set at guard. I wanted a center and a tackle more than a guard personally but after everybody kept reaching for tackles early Warford was my plan B.

 

[InmanRoshi]

And why does Escobar get a maybe and Warford get inserted as if he is a sure thing?

Because Walter Football said so.

You don't get anymore legit than Walter Football. Sorry, you just don't.

 

[Cowboy_Shawn]

So says you. The team obviously puts an emphasis on agility scores and Warford was downright awful in his performance there.

And why does Escobar get a maybe and Warford get inserted as if he is a sure thing?

Probably because James Hanna played well and produced when given the opportunity, while the interior of our OL was abysmal from start to finish.

I'm not so sure Escobar easily beats out Hanna for the backup TE spot. But of course you have to weigh in the Jerry Factor. Jerry may insist that Escobar gets the nod simply based on economics. It's happened before in Dallas. He's already hinted at it when he essentially anointed Frederick a starter.

As for Warford, it's pretty easy to reason that he'd be an instant upgrade over the rubbish we had lined up on the line last season.

 

[Galian Beast]

Probably because James Hanna played well and produced when given the opportunity, while the interior of our OL was abysmal from start to finish.

I'm not so sure Escobar easily beats out Hanna for the backup TE spot. But of course you have to weigh in the Jerry Factor. Jerry may insist that Escobar gets the nod simply based on economics. It's happened before in Dallas. He's already hinted at it when he essentially anointed Frederick a starter.

As for Warford, it's pretty easy to reason that he'd be an instant upgrade over the rubbish we had lined up on the line last season.

I think fans overrated Hanna because we like his dimensions and heard some praises about him in practices.

The reality is that he had 8 catches for 86 yards in his entire rookie season. He was active for all 16 games.

People are angry that we didn't get Warford, but they never ask did the Cowboys even like Warford... just because a player has X rating even if it is accurate doesn't mean that the Cowboys have a fit for him in their system, or that they like his make up.

 

[Galian Beast]

LOL man I was cracking up reading his post. I was like does this he really have an excuse for every single pick?

Excuse? The Cowboys didn't select these players. Obviously there was a reason for that. Reasoning doesn't make an excuse, unless you think they just forgot these players were there... or didn't do that vast amount of scouting that you did.

 

[TheCount]

So says you. The team obviously puts an emphasis on agility scores and Warford was downright awful in his performance there.

And why does Escobar get a maybe and Warford get inserted as if he is a sure thing?

I think he's saying the best Escobar can do is backup Witten while the best Warford can do is be a starter. I have seen VERY few people bash Escobar as a player.

Excuse? The Cowboys didn't select these players. Obviously there was a reason for that. Reasoning doesn't make an excuse, unless you think they just forgot these players were there... or didn't do that vast amount of scouting that you did.

I think the line between reason and excuse is a fine one that basically comes down to which side of the argument you're on.

 

[Cowboy_Shawn]

I think fans overrated Hanna because we like his dimensions and heard some praises about him in practices.

The reality is that he had 8 catches for 86 yards in his entire rookie season. He was active for all 16 games.

People are angry that we didn't get Warford, but they never ask did the Cowboys even like Warford... just because a player has X rating even if it is accurate doesn't mean that the Cowboys have a fit for him in their system, or that they like his make up.

A lot of it also has to deal with the deja vu feeling a lot of us got when the Escobar pick was announced.

Hanna is a better athlete but Escobar has better hands. Should make for an interesting camp battle.

 

[Galian Beast]

I think he's saying the best Escobar can do is backup Witten while the best Warford can do is be a starter. I have seen VERY few people bash Escobar as a player.

That is assuming that the fullback is the 11th starter, which is a huge assumption at this rate.

 

[Galian Beast]

I think the line between reason and excuse is a fine one that basically comes down to which side of the argument you're on.

Except when you think about it logically. Do the Cowboys need excuses for players they didn't draft or did they not draft them for a reason.

Unless someone is under the assumption that the Cowboys didn't scout the players they didn't draft, which is patently absurd and egotistical.

People spent a couple hours looking at mock drafts and player rankings, the cowboys spent the entire year looking at tape and interviewing players and coaches...

A lot of it also has to deal with the deja vu feeling a lot of us got when the Escobar pick was announced.

Hanna is a better athlete but Escobar has better hands. Should make for an interesting camp battle.

And I can understand that. I was reactionary at first too. That being said Hanna is a 5th round draft pick. Escobar is 2nd round draft pick.

I have hope that Hanna can develop, but outside of that I think Escobar gives us someone who might be able to step up immediately. Worst case scenario is we have a slew of TEs that can help us.

Look at the Patriots

1. Gronkowski
2. Hernandez
3. Winslow
4. Shiancoe

Wasn't that overkill?

Or do players get hurt?

2012 NFL Draft Prospect Scouting Report:
James Hanna, TE, Oklahoma
Hanna is an adequately sized tight end prospect that measured well at the combine and has some upside as a late round choice in the 2012 NFL Draft.
In spite of running a very fast 4.49 40-yard dash and having a successful combine, Hanna doesn't play up to his speed. He doesn't block very well and can really only seal the edge. Wouldn't be able to block consistently against NFL talent one-on-one.

He must learn to become a better route runner. Being more crisp and not "rounding the corners" will create more separation and improve his short-area agility. His speed will be useful if he can show a willingness to play special teams. As it stands, he lacks the bulk to be an effective in-line blocker. Hanna's ability to make difficult catches is his best attribute. He has good body control and can catch the ball away from his body.

Hanna could play a strong role in the red zone. He does well to go up and catch the ball at its highest point. Seven of his 18 receptions in 2011 went for a touchdown.

 

[ufcrules1]

A lot of it also has to deal with the deja vu feeling a lot of us got when the Escobar pick was announced.

Hanna is a better athlete but Escobar has better hands. Should make for an interesting camp battle.

Hanna's hands look just fine last year. In fact, they looked great in games. Escobar was the wrong pick there. TE was not a bigger need than Oline/Dline.

 

[Galian Beast]

Hanna's hands look just fine last year. In fact, they looked great in games. Escobar was the wrong pick there. TE was not a bigger need than Oline/Dline.

Again, he had 8 catches... You've built Hanna into something that he is not yet.

He isn't as fast as his 40 time which most people focus on, nor is he an established receiver.

721 yards receiving in FOUR years. 9 career touchdowns.

Escobar had 17 touchdowns, and 1646 yards... in THREE years.

Continue trying to compare them, but at this point there is no comparison to be made. Night and day difference between these two players and their resumes.

 

[ufcrules1]

Problem is too many of our fans watch too much ESPN.

Yeah, our fans need to stop listening to ESPN and the media. All those guys talk about is how our team makes the same dumb decisions year in and year out, how our GM is a buffoon, and the lack of playoff success in the last 17 years. They are just haters, none of it is true.

 

[ufcrules1]

Again, he had 8 catches... You've built Hanna into something that he is not yet.

He isn't as fast as his 40 time which most people focus on, nor is he an established receiver.

721 yards receiving in FOUR years. 9 career touchdowns.

Escobar had 17 touchdowns, and 1646 yards... in THREE years.

Continue trying to compare them, but at this point there is no comparison to be made. Night and day difference between these two players and their resumes.

It's not his fault he had only 8 catches, they barely threw him the ball. How many drops did he have? The previous poster is the one who compared them and said Escobar had better hands. I was saying TE should not have been the second pick. Especially a TE who isn't a good blocker. I like the guy and think he will be a good player but I would have preferred a trench player with that pick, you know, something that is more of a dire need?

 

[Galian Beast]

It's not his fault he had only 8 catches, they barely threw him the ball. How many drops did he have? The previous poster is the one who compared them and said Escobar had better hands. I was saying TE should not have been the second pick. Especially a TE who isn't a good blocker. I like the guy and think he will be a good player but I would have preferred a trench player with that pick, you know, something that is more of a dire need?

Have you thought they didn't throw to him often, because he perhaps didn't show the coaches enough to get enough playing time?

I think most people would say that someone described as the best natural pass catcher in the draft has better hands than Hanna who most reports suggested had suspect consistency in his catches. The guy had 51 career receptions in 4 years of college compared to Escobar who had 122 career catches in 3 years in college. Would you draft a pass rusher in the 1st if he wasn't a great run blocker? Many teams would.

Yeah, our fans need to stop listening to ESPN and the media. All those guys talk about is how our team makes the same dumb decisions year in and year out, how our GM is a buffoon, and the lack of playoff success in the last 17 years. They are just haters, none of it is true.

The reality is Jerry isn't nearly as foolish as you want to make him out to be. And looking at the context most of his decisions have made sense. If anything I would say Jerry has been a victim of his own success. He has taken some big risks, sometimes he hits big, sometimes he has missed big. He also tried to put this team in position to win every year, which has given us a lot of middle of the pack draft picks.

If you chart that lack of playoff success, you would see there is a lot of context to it.

 

[ufcrules1]

The reality is Jerry isn't nearly as foolish as you want to make him out to be. And looking at the context most of his decisions have made sense. If anything I would say Jerry has been a victim of his own success. He has taken some big risks, sometimes he hits big, sometimes he has missed big. He also tried to put this team in position to win every year, which has given us a lot of middle of the pack draft picks.

If you chart that lack of playoff success, you would see there is a lot of context to it.

You are going off on a silly tangent. My argument is we shouldn't have taken a TE with the 2nd pick in our draft, we should have taken a trench player. With regards to Jerry not being as foolish as I make him out to be? Well the proof is in the results or lack there of in the past 17 years. Jerry is extremely foolish and the whole world knows it minus a few die hard Cowboys fans.