An Old Idea: Play Choice More

[iceberg]

No kidding, do people watch the games? Dallas was stuck in may of these long yardage. We ran well on the 1st series of the game after that GB was making plays aginst the run. One big reason Dallas could not convert on 3rd is because we were constantly looking at 3rd and long.

well i don't disagree that we didn't establish the run, but i don't think green bay ever let us.

when most of your drives are 3 and out, NOTHING gets established so you can rag on whatever you'd like and have some form of a point to hold onto.

but in this case, to me, the OL stunk up the place. no protection for romo, flo looks like he's in quicksand at times on a speed rusher, and at times we just had no one to even TRY and stop a blitz.

people can hem and haw all they want about what we should have done but romo had no time to throw and together we had no drives to build consistancy out of anything.

why?

cause green bay kicked us around and should get props for their play. we didn't beat ourselves that game, they beat us.

it happens. but after every loss there's a crowd who will uber-discet it and make it more than it is.

 

[Doomsday101]

gotta establish the run. Every play Romo was sacked could of been a run.

so 2nd and long run it 3rd and long run it? yeah I'm sure Garrett would not have been called out for that as well. Dallas was losing the battle at the line aginst both run and pass if you can't block then it does not matter the play call or if choice was back there or not. It begins at the line you lose that battle you will not win the others.

 

[iceberg]

gotta establish the run. Every play Romo was sacked could of been a run.

so let's just be clear here - you're not into reason and logic, you just got a burr in your saddle we didn't run enough and that's your whipping post this week?

if so - great. whip it good.

i'll just move on to rational discussion and not blind whining.

heh, every play he was sacked could have been a run...stretch armstrong lives people.

 

[Doomsday101]

well i don't disagree that we didn't establish the run, but i don't think green bay ever let us.

when most of your drives are 3 and out, NOTHING gets established so you can rag on whatever you'd like and have some form of a point to hold onto.

but in this case, to me, the OL stunk up the place. no protection for romo, flo looks like he's in quicksand at times on a speed rusher, and at times we just had no one to even TRY and stop a blitz.

people can hem and haw all they want about what we should have done but romo had no time to throw and together we had no drives to build consistancy out of anything.

why?

cause green bay kicked us around and should get props for their play. we didn't beat ourselves that game, they beat us.

it happens. but after every loss there's a crowd who will uber-discet it and make it more than it is.

I agree. We could not win the battles up front when that happens you will struggle to win

 

[iceberg]

so 2nd and long run it 3rd and long run it? yeah I'm sure Garrett would not have been called out for that as well. Dallas was losing the battle at the line aginst both run and pass if you can't block then it does not matter the play call or if choice was back there or not. It begins at the line you lose that battle you will not win the others.

sometimes dooms, people just spout out a stupidity-nugget cause they can't stand to just let things be what they are - even if bad.

i now know he hates garrett and regardless of what garrett does, some will critisize it, even if it contradicts themselves.

 

[Mash]

im sorry but we are not that great of a running team....

When teams put 8 in a box.....we cant run...

Our pass sets up the run....

 

[Gaede]

Our pass sets up the run....

...as well as big time sacks and interceptions at inopportune times

 

[odog422]

im sorry but we are not that great of a running team....

When teams put 8 in a box.....we cant run...

Our pass sets up the run....

Exactly. Most of our run plays are from passing formations.

We have no COMMITMENT to the run nor the understanding that every run is going to be 4+ yards per carry. I'd love to see what this line could do if we ever just committed to the run.

Not the fake slant draws or razorback or reverses, just some basic I-formation running plays or traps with a fullback lead and a guy like Choice, who besides being the only healthy back on the roster, excels at between the tackles running.

 

[BlindFaith]

Originally Posted by ethiostar
.......(stuff removed)
First Half

* Series one -- two rushes, 20 yards;
* Series two -- three rushes, 8 yards;
* Series three -- one 1st down rush for 2 yards. Romo sacked on 2nd, taking the run option away on 3rd;
* Series four -- two rushes for 3 yards. Choice is two feet short on a 3rd-and-4 draw;
* Series five -- no rushes; Roy Williams fumbles on drives only play;
* Series six -- Romo is sacked on 1st down, putting Dallas in 2nd and long. No rushes;

Second Half

* Series one - Barber rushes on 1st for no gain. Romo sacked on 2nd down;
* Series two -- Choice runs once for 11 yards; Williams and Witten bungle the drive on subsequent plays. (see above);
* Series three -- Felix Jones rushes on 1st down for 4 yards. Romo sacked on next play and fumbles;
* Series four -- Dallas takes the field here down 17-0 with 10:44 left and doesn't call another run.

put the hate down and simply tell me - does it sound like we missed on a lot of running opportunities in here when you break it out play by play? most of the complaints i hear about us not running don't seem to take into account the way the game unfolded.

Ok, I will say that by us being down 17 in the fourth quarter dictated us passing. I thought maybe those numbers clouded the perception that we abandoned the run. So I looked through each drive to see what happened when we were still in the game.

The numbers I came up with do not take into account anything after the last fumble that all but put us away.

Prior to that we had 12 1st down possessions. We passed on eight of them. This does not count the one first down that we used the Razorback on, which is not creative at this point and was only marginally effective in this game due to a terrific run by Choice.

This is not the way to establish a running game or is not the identity of a team that wishes to.

There were also 4 other 2nd or 3rd situations with 8 yards or less that we elected to pass on. Now, I'm not going to quibble about this, but it is yet another indication that we had the propensity to pass instead of run.

The final point I'd like to make is that, as I've mentioned in other threads, Marion Barber is not our best option at running back and this too, I feel, contributes to our running game not being what it should be.

I don't think at this point it's any real surprise that Garrett prefers to pass than to run. Some games he does a better job at creating that balance, but this game he clearly was not patient enough to stick with it or make it a focus.

 

[Doomsday101]

Ok, I will say that by us being down 17 in the fourth quarter dictated us passing. I thought maybe those numbers clouded the perception that we abandoned the run. So I looked through each drive to see what happened when we were still in the game.

The numbers I came up with do not take into account anything after the last fumble that all but put us away.

Prior to that we had 12 1st down possessions. We passed on eight of them. This does not count the one first down that we used the Razorback on, which is not creative at this point and was only marginally effective in this game due to a terrific run by Choice.

This is not the way to establish a running game or is not the identity of a team that wishes to.

There were also 4 other 2nd or 3rd situations with 8 yards or less that we elected to pass on. Now, I'm not going to quibble about this, but it is yet another indication that we had the propensity to pass instead of run.

The final point I'd like to make is that, as I've mentioned in other threads, Marion Barber is not our best option at running back and this too, I feel, contributes to our running game not being what it should be.

I don't think at this point it's any real surprise that Garrett prefers to pass than to run. Some games he does a better job at creating that balance, but this game he clearly was not patient enough to stick with it or make it a focus.

A lot of that has to do with how teams are lining up against us. Hell we had the plays down field some called back due to penalties, some drops and RW fumble. Many of the Cowboys runs where not getting any yardage to speak of. I'm not saying Dallas could not have ran a bit more but we were doing so poorly along the line of scrimmage that I doubt it would have made a difference at all.

 

[iceberg]

A lot of that has to do with how teams are lining up against us. Hell we had the plays down field some called back due to penalties, some drops and RW fumble. Many of the Cowboys runs where not getting any yardage to speak of. I'm not saying Dallas could not have ran a bit more but we were doing so poorly along the line of scrimmage that I doubt it would have made a difference at all.

well it was a good breakdown by blindfaith and that's appreciated. but i don't agree with the analysis.

is garrett more pass happy? probably. but in the 4 game winning streak it was working. if it worked yesterday it's a non-issue.

the momentum has to come whether from pass or run and which you do can be determined by what the other team is trying to stop.

the main point is with so many 3 and outs, nothing got established, so harping on one over the other is kinda silly when neither was working.

 

[Doomsday101]

well it was a good breakdown by blindfaith and that's appreciated. but i don't agree with the analysis.

is garrett more pass happy? probably. but in the 4 game winning streak it was working. if it worked yesterday it's a non-issue.

the momentum has to come whether from pass or run and which you do can be determined by what the other team is trying to stop.

the main point is with so many 3 and outs, nothing got established, so harping on one over the other is kinda silly when neither was working.

I agree my beef was with the play of the line, when the line does not play well when they are getting beat as they were all the play calling in the world is not going to change that. Jolly was doing a good job of getting a big push, when they sent blitzes we did a poor job of picking them up even the reliable Barber got tossed out of the way by Bennett on a sack. I will say when a team like GB is calling some aggressive plays on the defensive side you must be able to capitalize on some big plays yet in this game we managed to screw that up with drops and fumble, you finish off those plays and score then the odds of GB backing off on the aggressive calls is more likely.

 

[BlindFaith]

well it was a good breakdown by blindfaith and that's appreciated. but i don't agree with the analysis.

is garrett more pass happy? probably. but in the 4 game winning streak it was working. if it worked yesterday it's a non-issue.

the momentum has to come whether from pass or run and which you do can be determined by what the other team is trying to stop.

the main point is with so many 3 and outs, nothing got established, so harping on one over the other is kinda silly when neither was working.

Let me know when it works against a top rated defense. Squeaking by Philly and scoring points against Atlanta, Seattle and Kansas City hardly inspire confidence. The two highest rated defenses (points per game) we've played have held us to 10 points or less.

Luckily Washington is the only team left that we play that are in the top 10 of points allowed. We play Philly again, but they are not top 10.

I'm at the point where I too will not hold my breath until Romo and Garrett can show they can win in the playoffs. All the rest, the big numbers, the wins against bad teams, it's just window dressing.

Our defense is good enough to win in the playoffs. I hope our offense is, but my gut tells me otherwise.

 

[BlindFaith]

A lot of that has to do with how teams are lining up against us. Hell we had the plays down field some called back due to penalties, some drops and RW fumble. Many of the Cowboys runs where not getting any yardage to speak of. I'm not saying Dallas could not have ran a bit more but we were doing so poorly along the line of scrimmage that I doubt it would have made a difference at all.

I agree with all of that. Losing the turnover battle alone usually equates to a loss. Key penalties hurt us as well.

But with all of that being said, there is still something wrong with this offense when it plays against good defenses. We seldom have an answer.

 

[iceberg]

I agree with all of that. Losing the turnover battle alone usually equates to a loss. Key penalties hurt us as well.

But with all of that being said, there is still something wrong with this offense when it plays against good defenses. We seldom have an answer.

and not many teams do have that answer.

that's what makes a top defense...top.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

so 2nd and long run it 3rd and long run it? yeah I'm sure Garrett would not have been called out for that as well. Dallas was losing the battle at the line aginst both run and pass if you can't block then it does not matter the play call or if choice was back there or not. It begins at the line you lose that battle you will not win the others.

So what you're saying is that when you can't find success in the running game, you just start winging it?

When I say that I mean, when you haven't done anything offensively the entire half and you get the ball at your own 17 yard line with 1:50 to play, you call three pass plays that make's Greenbay use only one timeout and gives them the ball back at midfield with two timeouts! Are you kidding me!? That is football 101 dude! This is not why we lost, but it is a good example of plays that we need to make to be successful! Run the ball, make them take their timeouts and then punt... we weren't going anywhere on that drive and we all know it!

The Bengals ran the ball 29 times for 61yds yesterday, in a close game. But they stuck with the run... and kept the defense honest. You can't go for the home run every play. But sadly we continue to do it without the threat of a running game...

 

[Doomsday101]

I agree with all of that. Losing the turnover battle alone usually equates to a loss. Key penalties hurt us as well.

But with all of that being said, there is still something wrong with this offense when it plays against good defenses. We seldom have an answer.

Dallas put points on the Giants some considerd them a good defense, Philly was hard fought game and the offense put up some points. Yesterday Dallas played a bad game I'm not going to sit here and cry all week about it, they will get ready for the next game (really the next 2 games since we have the short week) and move on. In the Packer games there were some big plays for the taking we failed to make them had we held on to some of those plays GB tactics may have changed as well but why change when your defense is making plays and the opposing team is finding ways to hurt themselfs along the way?

 

[Doomsday101]

So what you're saying is that when you can't find success in the running game, you just start winging it?

When I say that I mean, when you haven't done anything offensively the entire half and you get the ball at your own 17 yard line with 1:50 to play, you call three pass plays that make's Greenbay use only one timeout and gives them the ball back at midfield with two timeouts! Are you kidding me!? That is football 101 dude! This is not why we lost, but it is a good example of plays that we need to make to be successful! Run the ball, make them take their timeouts and then punt... we weren't going anywhere on that drive and we all know it!

The Bengals ran the ball 29 times for 61yds yesterday, in a close game. But they stuck with the run... and kept the defense honest. You can't go for the home run every play. But sadly we continue to do it without the threat of a running game...

What I'm saying is we had plays down field we were not finishing off, I'm saying when there are DB up close to the line it is stupid to run into a brick wall time after time the same people whinning right now would call that playing not to loose remember that was what people claimed when BP was here and continued to run the ball even when it was not working. I want to see Dallas be more balanced than yesterday and we may have been able to do that had we been able to finish off some plays we hit down the field which would have given us 1st downs but instead where dropped or called back due to penalties.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

What I'm saying is we had plays down field we were not finishing off, I'm saying when there are DB up close to the line it is stupid to run into a brick wall time after time the same people whinning right now would call that playing not to loose remember that was what people claimed when BP was here and continued to run the ball even when it was not working. I want to see Dallas be more balanced than yesterday and we may have been able to do that had we been able to finish off some plays we hit down the field which would have given us 1st downs but instead where dropped or called back due to penalties.

We were just as much in this game as we were in the game in Denver. In that game we ran the ball 25 times for 74yds! Less than 3 yards per carry! But we were right there in a hostile environment and stuck with the run whether it worked or not. We had more success on the limited carries yesterday than we did against Denver, yet we gave up on it in a three point game. It is absurd.

You set up the pass with the run, well most teams do, and it makes sense. Everything that we do is predicated on the pass. Even our runs come from a pass motion with all the draw plays. Run the ball on the road to keep it close, and win the game in the end.

The run pass ratio was 17-10 when the game was 3-0. That is still too high, considering the success rate we had on those passes. Punch them in the mouth with the run, then playaction. We run playaction and the other teams DBs and LBs start laughing at us... they know we aren't gonna run the ball...

 

[JohnsKey19]

The Bengals ran the ball 29 times for 61yds yesterday, in a close game. But they stuck with the run... and kept the defense honest. You can't go for the home run every play. But sadly we continue to do it without the threat of a running game...

This is what I'm talking about. Now I'm not saying that a averaging 2ypc is a recipe for success, but it's the commitment to the run that settles things down and keeps the defense honest. Wasn't it Parcells that said that the # of rushing attempts is as important if not more than the # of yards gained?