Another Craigslist killing

[Cajuncowboy]

You have far too much "faith" in the justice system to arrive at the correct verdict. I wouldn't say it is common to have murder convictions overturned but there seems to be a few cases every year up here.

I don't necessarily have a super strong view against capital punishment but I don't think it acts as much of a deterrent and I don't believe it can be applied in an equitable manner by judges or jury - they bring too much baggage to the table in their recommendations.

Then if it's not a deterrent why have it? I believe it is. If it's not and someone still commits murder then they need to be taken out on the grounds they can not be rehabilitated.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Yep, capital punishment has by far been seeked more often when the victim is white female.

I remember taking a law and psych class in 2004, and that was the year that the 1000th execution in the US since the death penalty was reinstated and read that groups like the Innocence Project have exonerated a lot.

Per Wiki:

"As of January 21, 2010, 249 defendants previously convicted of serious crimes in the United States had been exonerated by DNA testing. Almost all of these convictions involved some form of sexual assault and approximately 25% involved murder"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project

You can have all the stats you want but in the end, I or most people really don't care about the color of the skin of the victim or the perpetrator. I prefer them to be dead no matter what color they are if they killed someone.

And now with the DNA testing, it should be even more certain they have the right person. It may have been an issue in the past but now, not so much. We don't need these people in society and we don't need to house, clothe and feed them for decades because they killed someone.

 

[Eskimo]

Then if it's not a deterrent why have it? I believe it is. If it's not and someone still commits murder then they need to be taken out on the grounds they can not be rehabilitated.

I guess the question that arises is the recidivism rate of murderers (particularly for commiting murder) in terms of the rehabilitation issue. I think the 25 years of jail tends to take the edge off the testosterone and fixes the problem for you anyway most of the time.

I could go either way on the issue so long as it could be enforced in a fair manner instead of just stringing up those that the jury doesn't like (i.e. Black men).

 

[Eskimo]

You can have all the stats you want but in the end, I or most people really don't care about the color of the skin of the victim or the perpetrator. I prefer them to be dead no matter what color they are if they killed someone.

And now with the DNA testing, it should be even more certain they have the right person. It may have been an issue in the past but now, not so much. We don't need these people in society and we don't need to house, clothe and feed them for decades because they killed someone.

The only thing is juries don't seem to be as colour blind as you are.

I think my views are influenced by the fact that I don't think there is as much "just" in the justice system as many people believe.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I guess the question that arises is the recidivism rate of murderers (particularly for commiting murder) in terms of the rehabilitation issue. I think the 25 years of jail tends to take the edge off the testosterone and fixes the problem for you anyway most of the time.

I could go either way on the issue so long as it could be enforced in a fair manner instead of just stringing up those that the jury doesn't like (i.e. Black men).

So you think 25 years is enough time for a murderer to be in jail? Maybe I am not following you. At the end of the day, if all evidence is clear, witness', dna, circumstantial and or confession, I don't see the need to wait 25 years. Let them have their trial, appeal and then get rid of them. They are a burden on society because of their crime and then they become a life long burden on society to keep them.

Honestly, I don't think life in prison takes the edge off of someone who has a tendency to kill, but supports it and fuels it. Look at the number of murders and attempted murders in prison.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

The only thing is juries don't seem to be as colour blind as you are.

I think my views are influenced by the fact that I don't think there is as much "just" in the justice system as many people believe.

Trying to find a newer study but as of 1999...



Often such discussion begins with the obvious: the race of the defendant. The Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) reports that black murderers represent 35% of those executed, white murderers 56%. As the argument goes, this must be evidence of systemic racism, as blacks represent 12% of the population, whites 74%.

Fortunately, the United States does not execute people based on their population counts but on the murders they commit. As blacks represent 47% of murderers and whites 37%, we see that whites are twice as likely to be executed for committing murder as are their black counterparts. Furthermore, the Bureau of Justice Statistics says that whites sentenced to death are executed 17 months more quickly than blacks.

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/racism.htm

With all of the activism on behalf of blacks in the criminal system, I can only figure that these numbers have not narrowed but grown.

With that said, and again I reiterate, I don't really care what color ones skin is. If you kill someone, or violently rape a woman, I think you should be executed.

 

[VietCowboy]

Trying to find a newer study but as of 1999...



Often such discussion begins with the obvious: the race of the defendant. The Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) reports that black murderers represent 35% of those executed, white murderers 56%. As the argument goes, this must be evidence of systemic racism, as blacks represent 12% of the population, whites 74%.

Fortunately, the United States does not execute people based on their population counts but on the murders they commit. As blacks represent 47% of murderers and whites 37%, we see that whites are twice as likely to be executed for committing murder as are their black counterparts. Furthermore, the Bureau of Justice Statistics says that whites sentenced to death are executed 17 months more quickly than blacks.

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/racism.htm

With all of the activism on behalf of blacks in the criminal system, I can only figure that these numbers have not narrowed but grown.

With that said, and again I reiterate, I don't really care what color ones skin is. If you kill someone, or violently rape a woman, I think you should be executed.

I know your statistics. You have to look closer, because it is white female victims where the perp is more likely to receive the death sentence. In general white victims are more likely to have a white perp.

I will be happy to try to find the article that pointed that out if you'd like. It's been 5 years or so, but I think I still have the books.

I agree, I don't care what color skin either, but like Eskimo, the justice system isn't just. The richer you are, the more likely you are to get off. That is the sad truth.

 

[vta]

The richer you are, the more likely you are to get off. That is the sad truth.

QFT. Just ask Big Ben.
One set of rules for the rich, one for the rest of us.

 

[VietCowboy]

http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/race-and-death-penalty

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims. Furthermore, as of October 2002, 12 people have been executed where the defendant was white and the murder victim black, compared with 178 black defendants executed for murders with white victims.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I know your statistics. You have to look closer, because it is white female victims where the perp is more likely to receive the death sentence. In general white victims are more likely to have a white perp.

I will be happy to try to find the article that pointed that out if you'd like. It's been 5 years or so, but I think I still have the books.

I agree, I don't care what color skin either, but like Eskimo, the justice system isn't just. The richer you are, the more likely you are to get off. That is the sad truth.

OK, this doesn't make sense. Here you say In General white victims are more likely to have white perps.

Then you post the aclu (who is by far hardly the bastion of fairness)saying..

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims


Well, if 80% of cases involve white victims would it not make sense that my numbers from above bear out, that more whites are executed than blacks?

I mean it just makes sense.

 

[VietCowboy]

OK, this doesn't make sense. Here you say In General white victims are more likely to have white perps.

Then you post the aclu (who is by far hardly the bastion of fairness)saying..

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims


Well, if 80% of cases involve white victims would it not make sense that my numbers from above bear out, that more whites are executed than blacks?

I mean it just makes sense.

There's no conflict.

my point isn't about the perp or defendent. My point was that the discrimination occurs b/c when the victim is white (and female - my reading wasn't from the ACLU, this was just a convenient link), you're more likely to get the death penalty.

I just said that you have delve deeper into the reason why there are more whites excuted than blacks, and that is b/c in general whites kill whites more often.

 

[Gzus]

Seriously no politics about discrimination and the justice system here. The point of this thread was to point out that some people are idiots when it comes to using the internet and it gets them killed. Just don't do what these people did, that's the point.

 

[CowboyWay]

We could stop this kind of thing if we would just kill the morons who do this. But instead, they will go on trial and IF found guilty will get to suck on the government dime for 10-20 years while they appeal and appeal and appeal.

If the justice was swift, it would cut down on a lot of this idiocy.

Completely agree. Nothing infuriates me more than people who are clearly guilty of crimes and work the system for 20 years until they are dealt with.

geez. I can't even post about this stuff it makes me so angry.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

A point to consider:

As posters have already pointed out, a woman is more likely to be killed by a male from own race. This means white females are more likely to be killed by white males and African-American females are more likely to be killed by African-American males.

Therefore, if we undertook measures to ensure total parity between the number of death sentences levied when the victim was a white female and the number of death sentences levied when the victim was an African-American female, we would most likely increase the percentage of African-American males being executed.

Consequently, we can always create statistics that make it seem as if one race is being treated unfairly under the law. Also, could it be that white women victims are disproportionately represented in death penalty cases because we've already undertaken measures to correct such perceived biases?

 

[Cajuncowboy]

There's no conflict.

my point isn't about the perp or defendent. My point was that the discrimination occurs b/c when the victim is white (and female - my reading wasn't from the ACLU, this was just a convenient link), you're more likely to get the death penalty.

I just said that you have delve deeper into the reason why there are more whites excuted than blacks, and that is b/c in general whites kill whites more often.

And with that said, black or white, a murderer needs to be put down. It's as simple as that.

And if there are more white on white crime than black on black crime that are capital cases where is the racial component?

Again, like I said, race issues are generally brought up by those who have a racial component in their ideology. (Not you necessarily just in general).

We would all be better off if everyone just looked at people as MLK once said he had dreamed, that people would be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Completely agree. Nothing infuriates me more than people who are clearly guilty of crimes and work the system for 20 years until they are dealt with.

geez. I can't even post about this stuff it makes me so angry.

Wow! We are on the same side of an argument.

5/10/10

 

[Maikeru-sama]

I see the PZ still lives.

Crazy!!!

 

[Cajuncowboy]

I see the PZ still lives.

Crazy!!!

I think this is more of a civil discussion than political commentary. I don't think there are any democrat/republican ideology here. Cowboyway and I have been on opposite sides of the political spectrum yet found common ground here.

It's more societal than political.

 

[VietCowboy]

And with that said, black or white, a murderer needs to be put down. It's as simple as that.

And if there are more white on white crime than black on black crime that are capital cases where is the racial component?

Again, like I said, race issues are generally brought up by those who have a racial component in their ideology. (Not you necessarily just in general).

We would all be better off if everyone just looked at people as MLK once said he had dreamed, that people would be judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin.

There's NOT more white on white than black on black, just that white on white murders occur more often than black on white murders. That is why you see more whites executed than blacks executed.

I don't see why you can't see the prejudices here. If a black person is killed, there is less likely to be pursued for the death penalty than a white person who is killed.

I agree that if you kill someone, you should get the death penalty, but here that is not the case.

1) White murder victims are more likely to have the prosecutor seek the death penalty than if there was a black murder victim

2) White murder victims make up about 50% of the murders, yet 80% of capital cases. That means that minority murder victims make up 50% of the murders, yet only 20% of the capital cases.

3) A woman is more likely to be killed by someone of her own race, hence why defendents in capital cases may have more whites than black since prosecutors are more likely to pursue a death penalty case when the victim is white.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

There's NOT more white on white than black on black, just that white on white murders occur more often than black on white murders. That is why you see more whites executed than blacks executed.

I don't see why you can't see the prejudices here. If a black person is killed, there is less likely to be pursued for the death penalty than a white person who is killed.

I agree that if you kill someone, you should get the death penalty, but here that is not the case.

1) White murder victims are more likely to have the prosecutor seek the death penalty than if there was a black murder victim

2) White murder victims make up about 50% of the murders, yet 80% of capital cases. That means that minority murder victims make up 50% of the murders, yet only 20% of the capital cases.

3) A woman is more likely to be killed by someone of her own race, hence why defendents in capital cases may have more whites than black since prosecutors are more likely to pursue a death penalty case when the victim is white.

Frankly, I'm sot sure I am buying those stats since I haven't seen a link to to verify them, but that's ok. In the end, we need the death penalty. It needs to be issued when there is a guilty verdict of murder and then carried out once the appeals process is done. And that doesn't mean 20 years down the road.