Another Elite RB Goes Home Ringless

Discussion in 'NFL Zone' started by mattjames2010, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    2 2,000 yard total yards is not all that unique - again, you don't know what you're talking about. What made Peterson elite is the fact that he had 2,000 yards just from rushing alone. 700 receiving with a little over 1,000 yards rushing and 9 TDs-12 TDs is not "elite" - either way, the year Ravens won the freakin' Super Bowl, he was far from an "elite" player. Nor are you even making a valid argument here - again I will state, having a couple great seasons does not make you an elite player.

    Demarco Murray was never "elite" - he had some great seasons, the same with Chris Johnson. If anything, you're proving my point - despite the guy going over 2,000 yards rushing on the ground and Demarco Murray having 1,800 yards rushing - neither of them were elite, and they certainly were not worth a big contract. It's a fundamental problem with the position - big years and then nothing. It's a fade fast position.

    Jesus.
     
  2. Pape

    Pape Well-Known Member

    556 Messages
    285 Likes Received
    Peterson was a great runner, has done it over a long period of time. No doubt.

    But what you are failing to see, and its a trap you have fallen into over and over, you refuse to give credit to anyone who falls out side of your narrowly defined definition of what elite it. As I said before You keep moving the goal posts in order to satisfy your argument. There is nothing anyone can say that you cant counter with well they arent elite enough.

    Running backs do more than run with the ball. If Rice puts up comparable yards to Peterson, whether the ball is handed off to him or thrown to him, he is still gaining those yards. It puts his play on par with the one guy you described as "elite".

    Your views of stats are narrow minded, and basically show a one dimension pattern of thinking. You lay out criteria that is impossible to meet because you never define it in order to "prove" a point. Thats not an argument, thats a three year old yelling "Im taking my ball away cuz you're a meanie!" Based on your own words there has been only 1 elite running back in the league in the '10's, Adrian Peterson. How can anyone populate a list of "elite" running backs that have contributed to winning a Super Bowl when there has been only one "elite" back in your designated time period?

    So whats the point of asking the question/making the point if the answer is a foregone conclusion?

    But, in the end you are dead wrong. You wouldn't know an elite back unless someone on ESPN said so... Adrian Peterson is the only elite back in the 2010's is utterly laughable...

    Heres one for you: Sony Michel is an elite Running Back. Julian Edelman is an Elite Receiver.

    You don't like it? Don't think he's an elite back? Tough, you're wrong. And the reason why your wrong is Stats Lie. You took a look and saw 931 yards in 2018... I look and see 981 yards in 13 games, another 350 yards and 6 tds in the post season AND more importantly 38:20, 43:59, & 33:10.

    In case you don't understand - that's NE's time of possession in the three post season games they played this year. That is not possible with out the production of Sony Michel. The Patriots won because of him. That is what makes him elite. Not some stat line on a piece of paper.

    Roster Building is much more complex than saying we have to do this we cant do that. Each piece has to balance out somewhere else. The biggest fault of the Cowboys roster is not them willing to commit 12 or 15 million to Zewok ... The cap is so high right now, its meaningless.The cap and the burden of signing one or two players to large contracts can be ameliorated over time and restructures. 99% of all those large deals are just for show. Most players never see the back half of the deals. The biggest problem is the coaches you all have kept around. They have done more to waste the talent on your roster than any few million dollars here or there ever will.


    TLDR: your whole argument is bs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
    cowboyblue22 and kskboys like this.
  3. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

    94,168 Messages
    19,379 Likes Received
    You do know you could say that about any position player, there are HOF players who never got a ring not just RB.
     
    kskboys likes this.
  4. atlantacowboy

    atlantacowboy Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

    5,127 Messages
    6,800 Likes Received
    So the bar is now that the elite running back must not only carry his team to the super bowl but also dominate the game? Lynch lead the NFL in TDs and made the pro bowl that year. He was central to their success that season. Brady has had some horrific super bowl performances. You going to ding him too?

    Obviously, QB is the most important position on the field. I'm not arguing that RB is on par. I'm saying there is no causation between having an elite runner and not winning a super bowl. An elite runner does not "cause" your team to have no chance. You are looking at a correlational stat and drawing an erroneous conclusion.

    I think it is the case in the salary cap era that you cannot pay an elite runner AND an elite QB while still fielding a respectable defense and OL to protect them. Seattle is the exception b/c they had Wilson on a cheap 3rd round rookie contract. They could afford to pay Lynch.

    In regard to the Cowboys, your argument becomes relevant when its time to pay Zeke. He's only in year 3 of his rookie deal. We have a 5th year option and then a franchise tag. We have him for 4 more years before having to come up with big money or let him walk.
     
    kskboys likes this.
  5. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    We don't have the luxury of what Seattle did in 2013. They had multiple great defensive players on cheap contracts, they had their young QB on a cheap contract - they could afford Lynch. You're the one who brought up his Super Bowl performance, and I mentioning in that Super Bowl, he did very little. Their defense is what won them the Super Bowl - 13 of their 17 games that year, teams were kept to 20 points or lower. Then in the playoffs, the most scored against them was 17 points. It's not as though the offense had a ton to do.

    In the Super Bowl where they relied on Lynch - they lost. He was also terrible in goal line situations, so don't try the "Well if they handed it off" - that wasn't a sure bet. The moment that defense slipped a little, they took the L.

    You continue to state there is no "causation" - bud, I am not saying the reason for NOT winning a Super Bowl is on the RB - I am saying RB simply isn't valuable enough to pay them top dollar because they aren't the reason you get to a Super Bowl. They are a luxury, and if you don't have a defense or a QB - it doesn't matter who you have at RB, you aren't making it. In the cap era, you pay the positions you KNOW help result in getting a trophy. That's the trenches and the QB.

    Zeke is going to want top dollar and a contract extension and fast - he has a solid case that he is the BEST RB in the league right now - he is not going to wait around for a contract.
     
    atlantacowboy likes this.
  6. atlantacowboy

    atlantacowboy Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

    5,127 Messages
    6,800 Likes Received
    We don't really disagree on paying a rb. I don't want to pay Zeke either. We have 3 cheap years left on his contract. We don't have to pay him. That said, our stupid GM will pay him b/c how dumb do we look using a top 4 pick on a guy and not resign him? Jerry does not like looking dumb.

    I do think we can compete for super bowls with Zeke on his rookie deal............what holds this team back year after year is coaching.
     
    kskboys likes this.
  7. Hadenough

    Hadenough Well-Known Member

    2,879 Messages
    2,809 Likes Received
    The way i view this is your not gonna win a SB even with an elite RB. You must have a elite QB or one that is capable of playing at an extremely high level through the playoffs like Foles of Eli. The Patriots Michel is a good RB but he is no Zeke or Gurley. But Bradys ability to pick a defense apart is what helps Michel.
     
  8. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

    11,700 Messages
    13,443 Likes Received
    Dang, Pape, that is one well written piece, and spot on!!!!
     
    cowboyblue22 and Pape like this.
  9. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    > Running backs do more than run with the ball. If Rice puts up comparable yards to Peterson, whether the ball is handed off to him or thrown to him, he is still gaining those yards. It puts his play on par with the one guy you described as "elite".

    This is just completely wrong. Peterson's 2012 season is going to be far more remembered than what Ray Rice did in 2009 and 2011. Let's take a look at all-purpose yards from those years

    2010

    Jamal Charles - 1,900
    Arian Foster - 2,221

    2011

    Maurice Jones Drew - 1,964
    Arian Foster - 1,841

    2012

    Adrian Peterson - 2,200+
    Doug Martin - 1,900 +
    Marshawn Lynch - 1,700+

    Do you see where we are going with this? The "2,000" all-purpose yards, and I'm even excluding other RBs who had impact on special teams that put them way over 2,000, isn't as special as RBs who rush for over 2,000 yards? Stop comparing it. One is far more rare than the other. Also, "receiving" for an RB rarely, if ever, tells the entire story - take Zeke for instance, he had 77 receptions but wasn't a dynamic receiving threat. Moving on.

    > Your views of stats are narrow minded, and basically show a one dimension pattern of thinking. You lay out criteria that is impossible to meet because you never define it in order to "prove" a point.

    Nothing about my criteria is "impossible" to meet - do you know what "impossible" means? I stated the one true elite RB of this decade was Adrian Peterson. So, obviously, it's not "impossible". Understand the words you use when you respond to me.

    > But, in the end you are dead wrong. You wouldn't know an elite back unless someone on ESPN said so... Adrian Peterson is the only elite back in the 2010's is utterly laughable...

    Now you're just getting big mad. Simply stating something is "wrong" is not an argument. And now you acknowledge I have set a standard of what an elite RB looks like - so, nothing was "impossible". My entire point has been that the RB position is so vastly unspectacular compared to other positions, that "elite" doesn't come around often in the modern NFL because the difference between good and great is minimal. Understand my argument. Moving on....

    > Heres one for you: Sony Michel is an elite Running Back. Julian Edelman is an Elite Receiver.

    Neither are elite. Lamar Miller had 900+ yards rushing and 5 TDs and even more receiving yards, is Lamar Miller "elite" now? You're lowering the bar to what "elite" is and you're allowing in a whole lot of average, bud.

    I won't entertain the rest. LOL Edelman "elite".
     
  10. Pape

    Pape Well-Known Member

    556 Messages
    285 Likes Received
    of course adrian petersons 2012 year will be remembered more than whatever rice ever did in his entire career. nature of the beast, when it comes to high profile players vs those players that have been villified...

    let me just say this - 2009-2012, one guy gained 6,881 yards from scrimmage... the other guy gained 7,506 yards from scrimmage ... I will let you figure out which is which

    but hey, what do I know, right?

    and i don't care about all purpose yards. neither rice or peterson made a living returning kicks... combined they have less than 25 regular season kick/punt returns... so i don't know why you are trying to drag that in
     
  11. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

    11,700 Messages
    13,443 Likes Received
    Edelmann is the best slot WR in the game. Why would you have a problem referring to him as elite?
     
  12. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    He has 2 1,000 yard seasons to his name, no double digit TDs, averages 10.8 yards a catch, never been to a pro-bowl and not a first/second team all-pro.

    Brown, Jones, Hopkins, and on the edge is Mike Evans.

    Edelman is a very good player with some great moments on a great team. He, however, is not "elite".

    And again, if Michel is elite....what is Lamar Miller?
     
  13. Pape

    Pape Well-Known Member

    556 Messages
    285 Likes Received
    Lamar Miller is a veteran running back who plays for the miami dolphins, who never turned up on the miami injury report. who has never carried his team thru the post season.

    Michel is a rookie running back, who was hurt all of camp and was on the injury list for 8 out of the first 11 weeks of the season, who stepped up and performed at an elite level when it mattered most. The Pats game plan in the playoffs was to let Michel run.

    He Ran, They Won.

    so... what else ya got?
     
    kskboys likes this.
  14. sean10mm

    sean10mm Well-Known Member

    1,160 Messages
    1,647 Likes Received
    Edelman is a classic TEAM hall of fame/ring of honor/whatever you call it kind of guy. A guy who was crucial in the team's greatest moments, but who doesn't have the career stats to justify the Hall of Fame. He's the kind of player you have a team hall of fame for in the first place.

    It is kind of funny how Edelman is the anti-Welker, a guy who had insane regular season stats forever but who never came through in the clutch. Edelman has very ordinary regular season stats but becomes a human cheat code in the playoffs. SB 49 he's the team's leading receiver and scored the go-ahead touchdown, 51 he has the impossible highlight reel catch to keep the crazy comeback drive going, 53 he was just unguardable all day. That little dude has nuts the size of coconuts.
     
    kskboys likes this.
  15. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    Patriots have won with other RBs in the past, none of which were "elite"

    A post-season performance does not make someone "elite". That's a great playoff run, similar to Flacco, again...not elite. Nothing, at all here, justifies him being an "elite" RB - not a damn thing. There is not stat that shows this. Yet again, his regular season numbers have him on par with Lamar miller.

    Edelman sure AS HELL isn't elite. LOL

    You lost. NEXT!
     
  16. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    14,196 Messages
    11,709 Likes Received
    > of course adrian petersons 2012 year will be remembered more than whatever rice ever did in his entire career. nature of the beast, when it comes to high profile players vs those players that have been villified...

    Adrian Peterson beat his child and had photos of his child bleeding released along with losing a season of his career because of it. Ray Rice was simply never an elite player, he was a very good RB with a couple of great seasons, but nothing out of the ordinary for RBs. Peterson's 2012 season is remembered due to coming back from an ACL injury, having some down games early on in the season, before tearing up the league and dragging his team to the playoffs and taking the MVP award.

    > let me just say this - 2009-2012, one guy gained 6,881 yards from scrimmage... the other guy gained 7,506 yards from scrimmage ... I will let you figure out which is which

    2009 and 2011 were Rice's best seasons, neither of which were spectacular and as I showed, the high total scrimmage yards for an RB is not a rarity. Getting 2,000+ yards running is. Again, one RB is elite the other was a very good RB with some great years. There's nothing else to it.

    > but hey, what do I know, right?

    Apparently not much. "Edelmen is ELITE!" - Goodness.
     
  17. Pape

    Pape Well-Known Member

    556 Messages
    285 Likes Received

    Matt, re: Michel v Lamar, context matters. That's what doesn't show on your "super secret only i know what an elite player is is" stat sheet.

    Post season performance doesn't make some one elite? huh ... well it sure as hell helps make the argument that they are elite

    Edelman is the best at his position in the league. Who's better in the slot? ... yeah, elite.


    you really going to compare the adrian peterson photos to the ray rice video? Okaaaay...
    and by out performing an elite player over his best years, Rice was playing at an elite level... okay... that works for me.

    and yup, Edelman is still the best at his position... so, yeah, elite
     
  18. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

    11,700 Messages
    13,443 Likes Received
    You do like yourself some stats, hey?
     
  19. kskboys

    kskboys Well-Known Member

    11,700 Messages
    13,443 Likes Received
    Declaring yourself the winner in the middle of an argument is some pretty weak stuff, dude!!!
     

Share This Page