Are pass rush DE's obsolete?

[ABQCOWBOY]

No.

 

[Sydla]

Do you ever have anything meaningful to add to the discussion?

Snark aside, he's not wrong.

It's obvious the question is being asked because the OP knows the defensive end situation is highly suspect for Dallas right now. So in situations like that, some people tend to create scenarios where they try to make themselves feel better about a bad situation.

 

[Sydla]

They get you off the field on third and long.

The point is valid, though. When most NFL passing offenses are predicated on getting the ball out in less than three seconds, the effectiveness of a strong pass rush is somewhat nullified.

And yet most of the previous SB winners were very good pass rushing teams.

So no, the effectiveness of a strong pass rush is not even somewhat nullified. It's very important in today's game.

 

[Sydla]

I expect two Alabama and one Tennessee outside pass rushers to go round one in 2017 so the answer is no.

Let's hope we are taking one of those three guys.

 

[Sydla]

It has always been Marinelli's theory that the 3-tech DT is more important than the DEs. His scheme made a super star out of Warren Sapp.

If you study the Cowboys DL, you can see that the DEs often sacrifice their chances for pressure because Marinelli is scheming to get the DT freed up to get pressure.

Sure on third and long against a non-mobile QB the DEs get their chance to go all out pass rush; however, if the QB is a threat to run they often play a somewhat contain style even on 3rd and long.

Offenses that use short quick passes eventually have to go to slower longer developing passes on 3rd and long. That is when you have the best chance to get pressure on a QB like Eli; otherwise you need the quick middle pressure to get to him or you need good coverage. LBs have to be good in coverage as well as the DBs.

This might be overstated. In Marinelli's time in Tampa as the DL coach, they took passing rushing ends twice in the first round and brought Rice in as well as a FA.

Marinelli might value the 3 Tech but to say that it's more important than the DEs seems odd given the investments the Bucs put into the DE position during Marinelli's time there. And in Chicago, a lot of their pressure came from the outside - Alex Brown, Julius Peppers, Mark Anderson, etc.

Is the 3 Tech important to Marinelli? Sure. But I think people are trying to minimize the role of DEs in Marinelli's system because they are trying to justify how this franchise went about "fixing" an area of weakness that the Jones' very clearly made a priority back in February.

 

[Sydla]

No.. Miller is a 250lbs outside Linebacker from the 3-4.

You wouldnt put him on the edge in our 4-3 and expect him to rush from our DE position with a hand on the ground.

In the end, it's still edge pressure. Just in a 3-4, that 4th rushing "DL" is an OLB.

 

[xwalker]

This might be overstated. In Marinelli's time in Tampa as the DL coach, they took passing rushing ends twice in the first round and brought Rice in as well as a FA.

Marinelli might value the 3 Tech but to say that it's more important than the DEs seems odd given the investments the Bucs put into the DE position during Marinelli's time there. And in Chicago, a lot of their pressure came from the outside - Alex Brown, Julius Peppers, Mark Anderson, etc.

Is the 3 Tech important to Marinelli? Sure. But I think people are trying to minimize the role of DEs in Marinelli's system because they are trying to justify how this franchise went about "fixing" an area of weakness that the Jones' very clearly made a priority back in February.

Obviously good DEs are needed. Marinelli was not the HC or GM. He did make a Pro Bowler out Melton in Chicago.

 

[xwalker]

No.. Miller is a 250lbs outside Linebacker from the 3-4.

You wouldnt put him on the edge in our 4-3 and expect him to rush from our DE position with a hand on the ground.

Miller played in a 4-3 until the past 2 or 3 years when Wade became the DC there.

 

[superonyx]

In the end, it's still edge pressure. Just in a 3-4, that 4th rushing "DL" is an OLB.

Yes and No.
I believe the OP's original point was to say that the typical DE who lines up and rushes the passer is obsolete.
Maybe he was saying trying to pressure the QB is an obsolete strategy.. No way I am going to try to defend that one if true.
Pressuring the QB is essential. Its awesome if you can find a DE who can just line up and beat his man consistently. But most of the pressure defenses have moved away from trying to find this person and instead rely on scheme to get pressure on the QB.

The beauty in the Denver defense is on any given play the offense doesn't know if Miller or Ware or both are rushing the QB and who is dropping into coverage.

 

[Sydla]

Yes and No.
I believe the OP's original point was to say that the typical DE who lines up and rushes the passer is obsolete.
Maybe he was saying trying to pressure the QB is an obsolete strategy.. No way I am going to try to defend that one if true.
Pressuring the QB is essential. Its awesome if you can find a DE who can just line up and beat his man consistently. But most of the pressure defenses have moved away from trying to find this person and instead rely on scheme to get pressure on the QB.

The beauty in the Denver defense is on any given play the offense doesn't know if Miller or Ware or both are rushing the QB and who is dropping into coverage.

I think what's he saying, and maybe I am wrong, is that pressure off the edge is overrated. He said DE because we run a 4-3 but I suspect he means any pressure from the outside and that only interior pressure is what really matters.

 

[superonyx]

Miller played in a 4-3 until the past 2 or 3 years when Wade became the DC there.

As an OLD. Never as a DE.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

And yet most of the previous SB winners were very good pass rushing teams.

So no, the effectiveness of a strong pass rush is not even somewhat nullified. It's very important in today's game.

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

On early downs, offenses are looking to get the ball out in three seconds or less. Unless an offensive lineman absolutely whiffs on a block, you're not likely to see much of a pass rush. If you can get some stops and pass break ups on early downs, you can force your opponent into third and long. That's when your pass rush comes into play.

 

[Sydla]

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

On early downs, offenses are looking to get the ball out in three seconds or less. Unless an offensive lineman absolutely whiffs on a block, you're not likely to see much of a pass rush. If you can get some stops and pass break ups on early downs, you can force your opponent into third and long. That's when your pass rush comes into play.

Obviously, 3rd and longs are ideal situations for the defense.

But the original question that was asked is are pass rushing ends obsolete?

The answer is clearly no, they are not.

 

[cowboyblue22]

ours Is obsolete because we really don't have any much just a bunch of jags

 

[Direwolf63]

If you are facing a mobile QB like a Russell Wilson, you want the pressure to come from the edges and force him to stay in the pocket.

If you are facing a stationary guy like Tom Brady, you want to get in his face by getting a push up the middle and force him to move.

The best answer to a 3 step drop is a push up the middle to disrupt the timing. This is what Denver did well last year, allowing Ware and Miller to have the years they had. They got all the credit, but the push they got up the middle was largely overlooked.

But pressure is always a good thing, no matter where it comes from. You must makes QB's uncomfortable.

 

[TheCoolFan]

If you can get a great pass-rushing DT then that's always great BUT there aren't too many in the NFL. Edge rushers will always be more abundant

 

[haleyrules]

lol. It only seems that way in Dallas. The Cowboys need a blood thirtsy QB hating edge rusher in the worst way.

 

[tm1119]

Just the thought of a pass rush changes the QB's entire mentality and game plan. Even if you want to say that the DT is the more important position in our scheme, you still need DE's to at least force the QB to step up into our highly paid 3 tech. Unless you have Watt or Donald you can't expect your 3 tech, who is facing a double team most passing plays, to create the pressure by himself. Make the QB move his feet and even at least feel the pass rush and it's a much easier game for the D. Let the QB stand comfortably in a clean pocket and it's more or less impossible for the D.

Long story short...you need pressure on the QB, and a lot of it. DT and DE's have a symbiotic relationship. You can't have only 1 and expect the other to get his job done.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Obviously, 3rd and longs are ideal situations for the defense.

But the original question that was asked is are pass rushing ends obsolete?

The answer is clearly no, they are not.

But the effectiveness of a strong pass rush on early downs is clearly nullified, as I said. That was the point you disagreed with.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Not obsolete, just different in terms of skill sets.





YR