Are pass rush DE's obsolete?

[xwalker]

As an OLD. Never as a DE.

He was a DE the Nickel which is about 60% of the snaps.

 

[superonyx]

He was a DE the Nickel which is about 60% of the snaps.

No he was an OLD in the nickel.
Just because he rushed the QB situationally does not make him a DE. DE is a position. A position he never played.
I have never seen him line up as a DE, put his hand in the dirt and play the position. He has moved around and used his speed from a stand up position to get the edge.

 

[chicago JK]

No I think they are more important than ever. If you make a QB uncomfortable that is half the battle. if the QB knows he needs to get the ball out quicker or quicker than he wants, this gives the defense an enormous advantage to make plays on the ball and/or capitalize on mistakes. Both pressure on the outside and inside at DT is key.

Also, if you are able to get pressure with 4 rushes that gives you more bodies in coverage who can make plays on the ball on rushed throws.

 

[NorthwestDallas40]

Snark aside, he's not wrong.

It's obvious the question is being asked because the OP knows the defensive end situation is highly suspect for Dallas right now. So in situations like that, some people tend to create scenarios where they try to make themselves feel better about a bad situation.

I didn't post to make myself feel better. I posted because I am trying to explain our FO's inaction, and maybe they (and Marianelli) subscribe to this approach. I personally don't feel good at all about the DE situation and am frustrated.

 

[NorthwestDallas40]

Yes and No.
I believe the OP's original point was to say that the typical DE who lines up and rushes the passer is obsolete.
Maybe he was saying trying to pressure the QB is an obsolete strategy.. No way I am going to try to defend that one if true.
Pressuring the QB is essential. Its awesome if you can find a DE who can just line up and beat his man consistently. But most of the pressure defenses have moved away from trying to find this person and instead rely on scheme to get pressure on the QB.

The beauty in the Denver defense is on any given play the offense doesn't know if Miller or Ware or both are rushing the QB and who is dropping into coverage.

Pressuring the QB is still the key to defense. My point was that, maybe, the FO believes that the pressure must come from the inside, not the outside, because of how the rules and passing games have changed. So, you don't invest as much on premier DE's that rarely get there (except for 3rd and long).

 

[xwalker]

No he was an OLD in the nickel.
Just because he rushed the QB situationally does not make him a DE. DE is a position. A position he never played.
I have never seen him line up as a DE, put his hand in the dirt and play the position. He has moved around and used his speed from a stand up position to get the edge.

They had 3 CBs and 2 LBs not named Von Miller in the game in their Nickel.
Miller
2 other LBs
3 CBs
2 Safeties

That just leaves 3 spots for DLinemen.

Miller was up on the Line and there only 3 other DL. He was playing as a DE even if he was in a 2 point stance.

 

[superonyx]

They had 3 CBs and 2 LBs not named Von Miller in the game in their Nickel.
Miller
2 other LBs
3 CBs
2 Safeties

That just leaves 3 spots for DLinemen.

Miller was up on the Line and there only 3 other DL. He was playing as a DE even if he was in a 2 point stance.

Still does not mean Miller played DE in the nickel. He still played LBer. He was the LBer that was playing close to the line. Not DE.

RB's catch passes. They even get sent to the slot or spread out on occasion. But RB's are still playing RB and not WR.

 

[Chuck 54]

I see your point. However. Von Miller won the superbowl basically single handedly

Miller is not a DE. The reason so many teams went to the 3- 4 is because it is a better configuration for stopping the run game; however, nowadays it appears to also be easier to find smaller LB's who can rush the QB every play and be more effective against the behemoth OTs than a true DE. When you find a true DE who can generate consistent pass pressure and hold the edge against the run, you hold onto him and pay him huge money whether he ever gets more than 10-12 sacks per year. In the 3-4, the OLB doesn't have to hold the edge, so he's pinning his ears back on every play, more so in passing situations.

I love the 4-3 because of the history of the Dallas Cowboys and tradition, but guys like DLaw, Gregory, and even Tapper would be much more successful in the 3-4 than in the 4-3. We were late to the party with Parcells, and we moved back to the 4-3 at a time when DE's who are great pass rushers are harder to find than shut down corners.

 

[xwalker]

Still does not mean Miller played DE in the nickel. He still played LBer. He was the LBer that was playing close to the line. Not DE.

RB's catch passes. They even get sent to the slot or spread out on occasion. But RB's are still playing RB and not WR.

It was the exact same function as a 4-3 DE and he played that way for 60% of the snaps.

RBs rarely if ever line up as a WR 60% of the snaps.

 

[Chuck 54]

As great as he was in the SB and is....Miller only had 11 sacks last season and has topped that number only twice in five years in the NFL.
Pass rushing is so much more than sacks.

 

[xwalker]

Miller is not a DE. The reason so many teams went to the 3- 4 is because it is a better configuration for stopping the run game; however, nowadays it appears to also be easier to find smaller LB's who can rush the QB every play and be more effective against the behemoth OTs than a true DE. When you find a true DE who can generate consistent pass pressure and hold the edge against the run, you hold onto him and pay him huge money whether he ever gets more than 10-12 sacks per year. In the 3-4, the OLB doesn't have to hold the edge, so he's pinning his ears back on every play, more so in passing situations.

I love the 4-3 because of the history of the Dallas Cowboys and tradition, but guys like DLaw, Gregory, and even Tapper would be much more successful in the 3-4 than in the 4-3. We were late to the party with Parcells, and we moved back to the 4-3 at a time when DE's who are great pass rushers are harder to find than shut down corners.

That was a theory that Parcells sold to Jerry, but it didn't really turn out to be true. It was hard to find 3-4 OLBs also.

It turned out that playing 3-4 OLB was too complicated for many players. The Strong Side OLB in Wade's scheme was very complicated. That is why they franchised Spencer twice despite him only being an average pass rusher. Spencer was valuable because he was a 3 tool player (pass rush, coverage and run defense).

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Corner

As great as he was in the SB and is....Miller only had 11 sacks last season and has topped that number only twice in five years in the NFL.
Pass rushing is so much more than sacks.

This.

And it's a point so many miss.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

That was a theory that Parcells sold to Jerry, but it didn't really turn out to be true. It was hard to find 3-4 OLBs also.

It turned out that playing 3-4 OLB was too complicated for many players. The Strong Side OLB in Wade's scheme was very complicated. That is why they franchised Spencer twice despite him only being an average pass rusher. Spencer was valuable because he was a 3 tool player (pass rush, coverage and run defense).

Great explanation.

 

[superonyx]

It was the exact same function as a 4-3 DE and he played that way for 60% of the snaps.

RBs rarely if ever line up as a WR 60% of the snaps.

Nope.
If we was playing DE he would be hand down like the actual DE's play in the nickel.
A 3 man front doesn't mean a LB is now playing DE. He is playing the OLB position still. Having your OLB line up close to the line doesn't mean he is playing DE. It just means your OLB is playing close to the line on that particular play.

I can't tell if you want to win a debate or if you really don't understand this.

Here is a diagram of the nickel defense.
Which position is Von Miller playing?

 

[Sydla]

This.

And it's a point so many miss.

Miss what? That "pass rush" also means putting pressure on a QB and making him make a quick decision before he wants to? That "pass rush" means pressuring the QB even if you don't register a sack?

I think most people know that.

 

[Sydla]

Nope.
If we was playing DE he would be hand down like the actual DE's play in the nickel.
A 3 man front doesn't mean a LB is now playing DE. He is playing the OLB position still. Having your OLB line up close to the line doesn't mean he is playing DE. It just means your OLB is playing close to the line on that particular play.

I can't tell if you want to win a debate or if you really don't understand this.

Here is a diagram of the nickel defense.
Which position is Von Miller playing?

I think you are playing a game of semantics here.

In the end, Miller is often acting as an edge rusher here. If you want to split hairs over whether he's a DE or OLB, have at it. But in the end, it seems to me the discussion here is whether outside edge rushers are obsolete and that with quicker passes, interior pass rush is more important.

I think the answer to that question is no. Edge rushers (OLB in a 3-4 or DE in a 4-3) are very important and not obsolete.

 

[xwalker]

Nope.
If we was playing DE he would be hand down like the actual DE's play in the nickel.
A 3 man front doesn't mean a LB is now playing DE. He is playing the OLB position still. Having your OLB line up close to the line doesn't mean he is playing DE. It just means your OLB is playing close to the line on that particular play.

I can't tell if you want to win a debate or if you really don't understand this.

Here is a diagram of the nickel defense.
Which position is Von Miller playing?

That is not a Nickel defense. It is missing the slot CB.

 

[superonyx]

That is not a Nickel defense. It is missing the slot CB.

Yes it's the 3-3-5 . Absolutely the nickel.
Notice the 5. Using 3 safeties and 2 CB doesn't change the fact that it's still the nickel defense.
Even the 4-2-5 is still the nickel defense.

 

[xwalker]

Yes it's the 3-3-5 . Absolutely the nickel.
Notice the 5. Using 3 safeties and 2 CB doesn't change the fact that it's still the nickel defense.
Even the 4-2-5 is still the nickel defense.

If the 5th DB is Safety, coaches call that a big Nickel.

When people refer to the Nickel it looks like this diagram with NB=Slot CB.

Yes, one DE could stand up. Seattle has a DE stand up occasionally.

The DE positions in the diagram will either be lined up as a 5-tech or 7-tech.

Von Miller played the 7-tech position in the Nickel defense.

It does not matter if you call the 7-tech a DE or LB. In Marinelli's defense the RDE plays the 7-tech position. The LDE for Marinelli plays 5-tech in base and generally as a 7-tech in Nickel.

If Von Miller came to the Cowboys, he would play as a 7-tech in the Nickel. If he stayed on the left side, then he would play the same position that Lawrence played in the Nickel last season.

 

[ConceptCoop]

Not just because we don't have any at the moment, but in today's NFL (and in Marinelli's defense) are pass rushing DE's becoming obsolete? Meaning with the prevalence of 3 step drops and quick passes to WRs within 5 yards when DB's cannot touch WRs, is it necessary to have a premier outside pass rusher that will to typically have time to get to the QB (except maybe on 3rd and long)? Not saying this is a conscious strategy by our FO (I don't give them that much credit), but maybe the pass rush by DT's right in the QBs face is far more important. And the Tyronne Crawfords, David Irvings, Maleik Collins, and Cedric Thorntons rushing right in the QB's face (not to mention LB blitzes in the G-C gap) are more important. Just a thought.

They're more important than they've ever been and it is very important to have premier outside pass rushers.

If 3 step drops are more prevalent, it's offset by the increase in passing volume. There are still more 5+ step drops than there ever has been, on average.