CFZ Are we undervaluing the defense?

[Sydla]

That was more about young players than lack of physical talent.

The 49ers have a unique running scheme.
- Shanahan's father and his OL coach Alex Gibbs were the 1st to go 'all in' implementing the zone blocking scheme in the NFL.
- Kyle Shanahan has morphed that into one of the only zone blocking scheme that utilizes a FB as an integral part of the game plan.
- The run fits and angles are different and it just throws off the timing for defensive players.
- They managed to block Parsons on run plays better than any team in 2021.

Most fans seem to want draft picks to become instant starters.

My feeling is somewhat opposite with regards to this defense.
- I want to see the core group gain experience together.
- Now that the players and coaches have seen this group vs that type of scheme, they can correct the mistakes.
- That's easier if the number of new starters is limited from year to year.

Seems to extend beyond Cowboys fans. This team's model is based on the belief that the starters, the immediate impact guys will come from the draft and FA is for finding JAGs and depth. So when there is a clear need, like there was at DE, and they draft a kid, that kid, unfortunately, has to be an immediate impact player.

 

[Sydla]

fans undervalue everything....we have a good defense thats only going to get better barring injury

LOL, the franchise hasn't won anything of note in 25+ years. They have zero NFCCG appearances and only 4 playoff wins TOTAL in that same time period.

I don't think the issue here is fans "undervaluing everything". More likely, the issue is Jerry and his son and some fans tend to "overvalue everything".

 

[glimmerman]

I know they lost some offensive starters which seems to be the major concern, primarily at LG, RT and WR. And that is basically an unknown at this time.

Then Gregory walked but just how important was he to the defense and overall team?

Do we spend so much time addressing what we don't like that we don't spend enough time looking for the things we do or can like?

Offense has some questions but it ranked 1st and couldn't muster over 17 in the playoff game but only gave up 23 on defense.

So, what if the offense falls off but stays in the top 10? And what if the defense becomes what really steps up? Because that is exactly what happened to this franchise in the early 90's. And what resulted was balance.

I think this defense needs a little more looking into before we start giving up the East to the Eagles and predicting another one playoff game bow out.

Dan Quinn proved himself last season because he got creative with the talent he had when he really didn't know what he had. No one predicted Diggs and Parsons and when was the last time the Cowboys had 2 players in the top 10 defensive players?

It wasn't just Parsons and his freakish athletic talent, it was Quinn exploiting that talent and turning him into a defensive weapon and overnight NFL sensation. Think he's going to regress this season? I'll take all bets against that and Diggs has proven himself to be the first ball hawk since Sanders for the Cowboys.

I really think the lack of movement on name FA's this off season has shaded things too much and caused some to really drain that half empty glass.

One thing that keeps coming back to me about this defense. Dan Quinn was the hottest HC candidate out there and linked with 5 different openings and he elected to take himself off the market and remain the DC here. We can discuss his HC resume but his DC one is exemplary and he knows a good D when he sees one and I think that is why he came back. I think he believes he has something special in the making.

Before you get all down about the offense, keep in mind it's a complete team and no Cowboys team in history ever accomplished anything without a standout defense.

They said we had a top 3 O-Line. We didn’t play like it. And we got ran on all the time. We got good turnovers this past season. But our D-Line was sketchy even with Parsons. This season we need to commit to stoping the run on the way to the qb. Need DT to step up. All season. No flashes here and there. Consistent play on the line. Both sides. I liked what I saw before Dak was injured. They need confidence and consistency. But the playoff game we got ran in and we laid back and never consistently went after the qb.

 

[kskboys]

I wouldn’t call Gallimore or OSA traffic cones or speed bumps. I think they’ll both take big steps. I also like Ridgeway and Golston.

I see a lower number of INTs, but a higher number of sacks and a better per game average against the run.

I like all of them, but they're all still question marks at this point. Not sure Galley or Osa have the physical skillsets to take big steps. Hill does, but that's another story!!!

 

[kskboys]

Agree with you there....like i said before, the offense is the one i am more concerned with. Not just because of their inconsistent play, but i don't have much trust on the coaching on that side of the ball, from the OL coach to the OC... weak part of the team. Should of gotten rid of both...... You'all Hold onto your panty hose, it is just my opinion.

And yet, it's been the D that keeps derailing us. I cannot fathom how anyone is not concerned about the D.

 

[kskboys]

fans undervalue everything....we have a good defense thats only going to get better barring injury

A good D? 19th is a good D? A D that couldnt' stop the 49ers run game is a good D?

By what parameters are you rating this a good D?

 

[ESisback]

A good D? 19th is a good D? A D that couldnt' stop the 49ers run game is a good D?

By what parameters are you rating this a good D?[/QUOTE

Good D for turnovers. I think we’ll have fewer INTs, more sacks, and a better per game average against the run. Overall, in the upper half of the league.

 

[Pass2Run]

And yet, it's been the D that keeps derailing us. I cannot fathom how anyone is not concerned about the D.

I think it's because of the rate of improvement the defense has seen under DQ.

Some of us are expecting to see even more improvements from our 2nd year guys.

 

[Sydla]

I think it's because of the rate of improvement the defense has seen under DQ.

Some of us are expecting to see even more improvements from our 2nd year guys.

For the D to be much better in 2022:

1) Someone - Gallimore is the most likely candidate - has to be a wrecking ball inside. When teams really want to establish the run on us, they have largely been able to do it, especially with quality OLs. Just look at that 49ers game. A rotation of JAGs isn't going to solve that problem. We need someone to step up and be a real force inside.

2) Lawrence has to refind his sack mojo. Or, less likely, Williams has to be a stud ala Parsons, right from the start. Even with Parsons heroics on the edge last year, this team was pretty mediocre at rushing the passer. So assuming Parsons continues, someone has to help him. It can't just be Parsons.

3) They really need Cox to be a player at LB. If he can play, it frees up Parsons for Quinn to play chess with.

4) Safety play has to be better. Kearse can't regress. Hopefully Hooker, with the injury now more than 12 months past steps up his game.

 

[Pass2Run]

For the D to be much better in 2022:

1) Someone - Gallimore is the most likely candidate - has to be a wrecking ball inside. When teams really want to establish the run on us, they have largely been able to do it, especially with quality OLs. Just look at that 49ers game. A rotation of JAGs isn't going to solve that problem. We need someone to step up and be a real force inside.

2) Lawrence has to refind his sack mojo. Or, less likely, Williams has to be a stud ala Parsons, right from the start. Even with Parsons heroics on the edge last year, this team was pretty mediocre at rushing the passer. So assuming Parsons continues, someone has to help him. It can't just be Parsons.

3) They really need Cox to be a player at LB. If he can play, it frees up Parsons for Quinn to play chess with.

4) Safety play has to be better. Kearse can't regress. Hopefully Hooker, with the injury now more than 12 months past steps up his game.

I think guys like Osa and Gallimore have to step up as well. Williams has to be a player and at least get close to Randy Gregory's performance at DE.

I would also like to see Kelvin Joseph improve enough to unseat Brown from the #2 CB spot.

 

[DFWJC]

To answer the OP, possibly yes.

To take it further, I think there's a real chance many here are underestimating the potential of this team in general.

NFC seems pretty open.

• Though the Rams do look tough on paper they have one of the nastiest schedules I have seen in years. Maybe 13 playoff-level teams out of the 17 games. They could be really good and still lose 7 games
• Green Bay had some of the biggest personnel losses in the league...especially at WR
• Tampa looks tough, but they did have a few losses as well (some nice additions too)
• I really like the New Orleans roster and the WRs are WAY upgraded, but Winston and the new HC are wild cards
• 49ers are loaded but have that same issue at QB. Both of them

Should be fun!

 

[ESisback]

For the D to be much better in 2022:

1) Someone - Gallimore is the most likely candidate - has to be a wrecking ball inside. When teams really want to establish the run on us, they have largely been able to do it, especially with quality OLs. Just look at that 49ers game. A rotation of JAGs isn't going to solve that problem. We need someone to step up and be a real force inside.

2) Lawrence has to refind his sack mojo. Or, less likely, Williams has to be a stud ala Parsons, right from the start. Even with Parsons heroics on the edge last year, this team was pretty mediocre at rushing the passer. So assuming Parsons continues, someone has to help him. It can't just be Parsons.

3) They really need Cox to be a player at LB. If he can play, it frees up Parsons for Quinn to play chess with.

4) Safety play has to be better. Kearse can't regress. Hopefully Hooker, with the injury now more than 12 months past steps up his game.

1)I wouldn’t call the rotation all JAGS this year.
2)The pass rush (Lawrence, Fowler, Parsons and Williams) SHOULD be much better.
3)Cox is healthy again, so yeah, Quinn will have flexibility.
4)Unless Kearse regresses, we should be fine at safety.

JMO

 

[Sydla]

1)I wouldn’t call the rotation all JAGS this year.
2)The pass rush (Lawrence, Fowler, Parsons and Williams) SHOULD be much better.
3)Cox is healthy again, so yeah, Quinn will have flexibility.
4)Unless Kearse regresses, we should be fine at safety.

JMO

1) You overvalue the talent at DT. Gallimore is really the only guy with any real potential. The others are just likely serviceable guys. Odi might have a bit more upside but likely will always be a bit limited by his size. Still, he can be a nice player. The concept of a rotation overcoming lack of any real upper level, elite talent is overplayed on this board and apparently, by the Jones'. Reminds me of when they tried to sell a "rotation" as being better than having a dominant, true #1 type WR. And then 4 months later they had to trade a #1 pick for a dominant, true #1 type WR.

2) Fowler is a JAG. He's had one really elite season in his entire career. If we get 6 sacks out of him, I'd consider that a huge win.

3) Cox might be healthy but you have no idea if he can play. He's a question. For this D to be better the answer to that question is Cox has to be a really good player. If he isn't, the LBs are suspect as they still need Parsons to move around.

4) Kearse might regress. He's been inconsistent for much of his career. They also need a consistent player at FS, hopefully Hooker.

You assume the answer to all these is yes - the DTs will play at a high level, the pass rush will be really good with Williams and Fowler and Lawrence as the true DEs. Cox will be really good.

None of these may end up being true. But in reality, we have to hope they are true if you want an improved defense.

 

[ESisback]

1) You overvalue the talent at DT. Gallimore is really the only guy with any real potential. The others are just likely serviceable guys. Odi might have a bit more upside but likely will always be a bit limited by his size. Still, he can be a nice player. The concept of a rotation overcoming lack of any real upper level, elite talent is overplayed on this board and apparently, by the Jones'. Reminds me of when they tried to sell a "rotation" as being better than having a dominant, true #1 type WR. And then 4 months later they had to trade a #1 pick for a dominant, true #1 type WR.

2) Fowler is a JAG. He's had one really elite season in his entire career. If we get 6 sacks out of him, I'd consider that a huge win.

3) Cox might be healthy but you have no idea if he can play. He's a question. For this D to be better the answer to that question is Cox has to be a really good player. If he isn't, the LBs are suspect as they still need Parsons to move around.

4) Kearse might regress. He's been inconsistent for much of his career. They also need a consistent player at FS, hopefully Hooker.

You assume the answer to all these is yes - the DTs will play at a high level, the pass rush will be really good with Williams and Fowler and Lawrence as the true DEs. Cox will be really good.

None of these may end up being true. But in reality, we have to hope they are true if you want an improved defense.

You undervalue the talent, but thanks for your opinion! Some folks are half full, some are half empty. My #1 priority is the team’s success, followed very closely by having fun with it all. Being “right” is a very distant third.

 

[Typhus]

A good D? 19th is a good D? A D that couldnt' stop the 49ers run game is a good D?

By what parameters are you rating this a good D?

That is and will remain the question kskboys, can the interior DL transcend.
If they dont than this defense will fail again, and your point will be validated.

 

[Typhus]

1) You overvalue the talent at DT. Gallimore is really the only guy with any real potential. The others are just likely serviceable guys. Odi might have a bit more upside but likely will always be a bit limited by his size. Still, he can be a nice player. The concept of a rotation overcoming lack of any real upper level, elite talent is overplayed on this board and apparently, by the Jones'. Reminds me of when they tried to sell a "rotation" as being better than having a dominant, true #1 type WR. And then 4 months later they had to trade a #1 pick for a dominant, true #1 type WR.

2) Fowler is a JAG. He's had one really elite season in his entire career. If we get 6 sacks out of him, I'd consider that a huge win.

3) Cox might be healthy but you have no idea if he can play. He's a question. For this D to be better the answer to that question is Cox has to be a really good player. If he isn't, the LBs are suspect as they still need Parsons to move around.

4) Kearse might regress. He's been inconsistent for much of his career. They also need a consistent player at FS, hopefully Hooker.

You assume the answer to all these is yes - the DTs will play at a high level, the pass rush will be really good with Williams and Fowler and Lawrence as the true DEs. Cox will be really good.

None of these may end up being true. But in reality, we have to hope they are true if you want an improved defense.

All good points, but the question will only be answered after Quinn puts the pieces in place, Q has his pieces so let see what he can do with FAs like Fowler, if Q can improve Fowlers game in his system, than Im really loving me some Q.
Thats what great coaches do, they enable a franchise to be able to acquire players that need the right environment and "fit".
Lot of really good defensive players for Q to find a role, this defense can be really good, but I understand there are a lot of ifs.

 

[Londonboy]

Since Quinn got here, our D drafting has changed. We are now drafting big meanies up front instead of ballet dancers. To to mention having actual S's on the roster!!!

I think it's spelled tutu.

 

[ESisback]

I think it's spelled tutu.

@Londonboy

Hey! Where ya been, old man?

 

[G2]

You undervalue the talent, but thanks for your opinion! Some folks are half full, some are half empty. My #1 priority is the team’s success, followed very closely by having fun with it all. Being “right” is a very distant third.

While I think it's been the defense that has been the main factor winning post season games, I'm not sure how you couldn't be excited or optimistic about this coming season and the defense.
I respect a guy who's here for fun rather than choosing to be a stick in the mud. Keeping score on being right on a forum of mostly strangers says it all my friend.

 

[G2]

I think it's spelled tutu.

L-Boogy!