Aviation

[CyberB0b]

Have any of the articles mentioned which pilot went through the motions of trying to turn the fuel systems back on? I admittedly haven’t been keeping up with the latest news on this. From what I read Pilot #1 questioned why the other (Pilot #2) turned off the fuel (w/ Pilot #2 initially he didn’t do that). I’m curious if they’ve determined whether Pilot #2 then tried turning it back on. In other words, if this guy had a death wish, it’s hard to believe he’d go through the motions of then trying to restore the fuel systems.

There’s no way to determine who turned them back on

 

[Vtwin]

There’s no way to determine who turned them back on

I just saw the report of the 767 that had an engine fire on takeoff from LAX. Would this be an example of the pilots needing to shut fuel down to that engine during takeoff?

 

[CyberB0b]

I just saw the report of the 767 that had an engine fire on takeoff from LAX. Would this be an example of the pilots needing to shut fuel down to that engine during takeoff?

At some point, yes, but generally, not until you hit the level off altitude (1000 feet usually) and start the clean up process. The engines still produce thrust when on fire.

 

[gtb1943]

I just saw the report of the 767 that had an engine fire on takeoff from LAX. Would this be an example of the pilots needing to shut fuel down to that engine during takeoff?

the crew was experienced enough to know that turning the fuel off at 600 feet means a crash is virtually certain. So I kind of doubt that they would do that.
An engine on fire is very bad; but losing power at 600 feet means dead.

 

[Vtwin]

the crew was experienced enough to know that turning the fuel off at 600 feet means a crash is virtually certain. So I kind of doubt that they would do that.
An engine on fire is very bad; but losing power at 600 feet means dead.

While I'm am in no way shape or form an expert, I am pretty sure that the airplane is capable of taking off on one engine in the event of a failure. What I did not know is how soon on the checklist the fuel would be shut off to a burning engine to mitigate the potential of a catastrophic explosion/fire.

I don't believe losing one of your two engines at 600 feet means certain death.

 

[gtb1943]

While I'm am in no way shape or form an expert, I am pretty sure that the airplane is capable of taking off on one engine in the event of a failure. What I did not know is how soon on the checklist the fuel would be shut off to a burning engine to mitigate the potential of a catastrophic explosion/fire.

I don't believe losing one of your two engines at 600 feet means certain death.

Plane full of fuel at near maximum load and you think it can take off with only one engine; and BY THE WAY BOTH WERE TURNED OFF.

Modern airliners are built so that engine fires will not cause explosions; separation of the engine from the wing makes sure of that.

A 747 might be able to take off at max load with one of FOUR engines out, but that is not the case when you have a two engine aircraft is it?

 

[Vtwin]

Plane full of fuel at near maximum load and you think it can take off with only one engine; and BY THE WAY BOTH WERE TURNED OFF.

Modern airliners are built so that engine fires will not cause explosions; separation of the engine from the wing makes sure of that.

A 747 might be able to take off at max load with one of FOUR engines out, but that is not the case when you have a two engine aircraft is it?

Dual engine commercial aircraft can take off on one of its two engines.


I wasn't referring to the 787 crash. I was referring to a recent event (Friday I believe) involving a 767 and the potential need to use those very cutoff switches at a time in flight similar to the 787 crash. They had problems with one engine, not both. We are fortunate to have a professional pilot here at the Zone who is willing to oblige the questions of an interested layman.

If I am understanding Bob correctly, first priority is to deal with getting the plane stabilized and at an elevation that gives you some wiggle room, then to prepare for an emergency landing which includes using that cutoff switch to shut down fuel to the burning engine to minimize risk of a fuel leak/fire/explosion during that emergency landing.

 

[CyberB0b]

Plane full of fuel at near maximum load and you think it can take off with only one engine; and BY THE WAY BOTH WERE TURNED OFF.

Yes, they’re certified to takeoff after v1 speed on takeoff roll, single engine. It’s actually safer to continue the takeoff than try to abort it at high speeds.

 

[gtb1943]

Yes, they’re certified to takeoff after v1 speed on takeoff roll, single engine. It’s actually safer to continue the takeoff than try to abort it at high speeds.

I can see that. But then again we come down to the fact that both engines were cut off.

 

[rags747]

Yes, they’re certified to takeoff after v1 speed on takeoff roll, single engine. It’s actually safer to continue the takeoff than try to abort it at high speeds.

1 engine out on a two engine plane, how difficult is it to keep balance and I imagine flaps on engine out side are different?

 

[gtb1943]

1 engine out on a two engine plane, how difficult is it to keep balance and I imagine flaps on engine out side are different?

supposedly the crews train for this sort of thing.

but I doubt any training occurs where both engines are shut down right after takeoff.

 

[CyberB0b]

1 engine out on a two engine plane, how difficult is it to keep balance and I imagine flaps on engine out side are different?

Some airplanes are more difficult than others. You mainly control it with rudder. The flaps stay in the same configuration until you start to clean it up. You never want asymmetric flap deployment.

 

[gtb1943]

Some airplanes are more difficult than others. You mainly control it with rudder. The flaps stay in the same configuration until you start to clean it up. You never want asymmetric flap deployment.

how bad is that?

 

[Flamma]

While I'm am in no way shape or form an expert, I am pretty sure that the airplane is capable of taking off on one engine in the event of a failure. What I did not know is how soon on the checklist the fuel would be shut off to a burning engine to mitigate the potential of a catastrophic explosion/fire.

I don't believe losing one of your two engines at 600 feet means certain death.

They didn't lose 2 engines at 600 feet. They lost both engines starting at 3 seconds after the plane left the ground. Right around the time the pilot monitoring should have called out positive rate. They may have ended up climbing to 600 feet, but that's not when the engines were cut off.

 

[Vtwin]

They didn't lose 2 engines at 600 feet. They lost both engines starting at 3 seconds after the plane left the ground. Right around the time the pilot monitoring should have called out positive rate. They may have ended up climbing to 600 feet, but that's not when the engines were cut off.

I was not referencing the Air India crash. I was referencing a more recent event where a 767 taking off from LAX had an engine fire on takeoff.

 

[Flamma]

I was not referencing the Air India crash. I was referencing a more recent event where a 767 taking off from LAX had an engine fire on takeoff.

Oh ok. I just recently seen that. But wasn't that just one engine? It would be really scary if both were on fire.

 

[Vtwin]

Oh ok. I just recently seen that. But wasn't that just one engine? It would be really scary if both were on fire.

Yes, it was just one engine. I wasn't trying to compare the two events as apples to apples. I thought it interesting that this may be a situation in which the pilots actually did have to hit the fuel cutoff switch during takeoff.

If I was on that plane it would have been really scary to have one engine on fire. Both engines on fire would have been really really scary! lol

 

[VaqueroTD]

Yes, it was just one engine. I wasn't trying to compare the two events as apples to apples. I thought it interesting that this may be a situation in which the pilots actually did have to hit the fuel cutoff switch during takeoff.

If I was on that plane it would have been really scary to have one engine on fire. Both engines on fire would have been really really scary! lol

Not a pilot but as the casual passenger, I assume my odds to survive just dropped immensely if those engines go out during take off when it's critical to get elevation, as opposed to already being in the air and adapting for an emergency landing. Probably why I'm always the most nervous during take-off.

 

[Flamma]

Yes, it was just one engine. I wasn't trying to compare the two events as apples to apples. I thought it interesting that this may be a situation in which the pilots actually did have to hit the fuel cutoff switch during takeoff.

If I was on that plane it would have been really scary to have one engine on fire. Both engines on fire would have been really really scary! lol

I guess that would be a suitable situation. There have been cases where the pilot cuts off the wrong engine. Then they can't get it restarted. That's a bad situation.

 

[gtb1943]

I guess that would be a suitable situation. There have been cases where the pilot cuts off the wrong engine. Then they can't get it restarted. That's a bad situation.

so far no indication anything was wrong with either engine