Barber needs to go

[mmillman]

Barber is a slow back that is no longer breaking tackles. Choice is better. Start Jones and use the cheaper and better Choice as the change of pace and short yardage back.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

Both Felix and Choice average a full yard per carry over Barber the past two seasons. And both have done it as starters, this is isn't some case of Troy Hambrick getting a few runs in garbage time at the end of games skewing the stats.

If you can't see that Barber is constantly leaving yards on the field that the other two backs don't, I don't know what to tell you.

If it's YPC you want to look at that's fine. Choice had 64 carries this season vs Barber's 214 carries. That means that a big gain by Choice, like lets say a 66yd run vs the Raiders, can have a huge impact on his YPC totals... In fact, as someone else has already posted, with out 1 big play in a blowout win, he avg 4.49ypc the rest of the way! Down from 5.5 so it dropped by 1 ypc. Compared to Barber's 4.4... Yeah there is a huge difference there!

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

He's done. Let's draft another rookie with more potential. Maybe he can jumpstart his career elsewhere. I wish the best for him, but it's over here. Let's draft a big bruiser who can do the same thing. We don't need him anymore. Thanks, Marion! You were awesome. It's just time to go in another direction.

I think going back to Jones starting and barber closing is the best way. tashard brings a little of both to the table, but he is not a game breaker and doesn't have any one thing that stands out. he succeeds because he is in his part time role. remember everyone thought barber was so much greater than jones and once barber started now, everyone wants him gone. they have value. they bring something to the table. use them like they should be and if we win that's what counts.

tashard, you are competitive my man, but shut your yap

 

[George]

I disagree strongly with that.

Loyalty caused Jerry to give huge extensions to Aikman, Irvin and the two worst– Emmitt Smith and Larry Allen.

It caused Jerry to trade for Galloway in order to appease Aikman.

Hanging on to players too long due to loyalty was a prime reason the franchise took a giant dump for 13 years.

Jerry didn't know how to handle the cap and he made stupid decisions... loyalty because of what he spent on Aikman especially. Emmitt and Allen were worth it for the most part. Aikman's contract was too big. Jerry decided he didn't need an entire OL, as I recall.

Loyalty tied up the money but Jerry would have made some stupid decisions even if he wasn't loyal to the triplets. Jerry did not have it together with the evaluation of talent or coaches. He was lost without Jimmy. He's better but he repeated himself with RW just like he did with Galloway. LaFluer was an Aikman choice also that Jerry paid for. Remember that waste?

 

[wileedog]

I think Marion has justified $4M.

I disagree.

How much his dollar value is in the future, it would obviously be less.

But his contract goes up in future years, not down.

You could ask Marion to take a cut but then you would always have RW sitting there making a ton for nearly 0 productivity.

Not sure bringing up the mistake that is RW is helping here.

You need to line up the roster vs. productivity, loyalty, consistency, injury-prone, etc. before you dump Marion.

Tashard Choice is all of those things, and vastly cheaper and fresher to boot. Ditto Felix.

Marion has been playing hurt.

To the detriment of the team. He missed a ton of games last year, came back to early and stunk. This year he has looked slower and a step behind. He has been arm tackled and ankle tackled. He's been awful in short yardage - which was his bread and butter rep contract - because he's lost his quickness which overcome his habit to be indecisive to the hole.

I can't see the durability of Felix or Tashard. Who replaces them when they get hurt? A rookie RB that costs a ton, that could get hurt? Or, do you attempt to fit a pretty good, dedicated, consistent workhorse RB like Marion in your lineup?

Are you seriously arguing about drafting another "expensive" RB so we can keep $4M Barber? How much do you think a 3rd or 4th round draft pick makes?

One of the main reasons the Cowboys did well this year is because they worked together like a team. I'd be careful about dumping the consistent team players.

Again, Choice and Felix are hardly TO.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Jerry didn't know how to handle the cap and he made stupid decisions... loyalty because of what he spent on Aikman especially. Emmitt and Allen were worth it for the most part. Aikman's contract was too big. Jerry decided he didn't need an entire OL, as I recall.

Loyalty tied up the money but Jerry would have made some stupid decisions even if he wasn't loyal to the triplets. Jerry did not have it together with the evaluation of talent or coaches. He was lost without Jimmy. He's better but he repeated himself with RW just like he did with Galloway. LaFluer was an Aikman choice also that Jerry paid for. Remember that waste?

Sure I remember the waste.

The stoopid decisions were based on loyalty because Jerry had little skill evaluating players.

 

[George]

I disagree.



But his contract goes up in future years, not down.


Not sure bringing up the mistake that is RW is helping here.


Tashard Choice is all of those things, and vastly cheaper and fresher to boot. Ditto Felix.


To the detriment of the team. He missed a ton of games last year, came back to early and stunk. This year he has looked slower and a step behind. He has been arm tackled and ankle tackled. He's been awful in short yardage - which was his bread and butter rep contract - because he's lost his quickness which overcome his habit to be indecisive to the hole.


Are you seriously arguing about drafting another "expensive" RB so we can keep $4M Barber? How much do you think a 3rd or 4th round draft pick makes?


Again, Choice and Felix are hardly TO.

Most of what you are saying deals with the "here and now". Marion Barber got the contract based on his performance, which I still think was justified.

You're seem to be guaranteeing performance from Choice and Jones. I like both of these guys. How long do you think they can perform at their current levels without injury? How long do you get these guys at their price?

I'd like to keep all 3 if possible. Marion needs to compete for the job but his loyalty, service and durability gives him an edge for employment, IMO.

Barber has never stunk. Let's face it, you call plays where the run is obvious and on the same side of the line three times in a row and you get snuffed, its not the RB's fault. The Cowboys have a problem disguising their plays at times.

RW is relevant here because his contract was excessive... it reminds me of something Ditka would do. It's a lot more fun to find an good unknown cheap than a hyped-up star getting ridiculous money. RW's money has team members scratching their heads. Barber's contract doesn't hardly cause a twitch when you think about it.

I believe in efficiency but not at the expense of loyal players like Barber. All of the players know its a business but you don't get teams out of revolving doors, not really.

 

[wileedog]

If it's YPC you want to look at that's fine. Choice had 64 carries this season vs Barber's 214 carries. That means that a big gain by Choice, like lets say a 66yd run vs the Raiders, can have a huge impact on his YPC totals... In fact, as someone else has already posted, with out 1 big play in a blowout win, he avg 4.49ypc the rest of the way! Down from 5.5 so it dropped by 1 ypc. Compared to Barber's 4.4... Yeah there is a huge difference there!

So big plays don't count?

 

[Christiann]

Toby Gerhart.

 

[masomenos]

So big plays don't count?

That's not what he said. He's saying that when you have a smaller sample size, atypical data skews the results more. Let's say Choice had 10 carries, 9 of which went for 3 yards and 1 that went for 45. That's 72 yards on 10 carries, for 7.2 YPC. Sure, you can say that he averaged 7.2 yards every time he touched the ball, but it's not really indicative of how he actually played. Why? Because there's a 45 yard run that skews the data.

Of course big plays count, but they have to be taken in the proper context.

 

[Cover 2]

You can't compare him to Peterson because they play for different teams on different lines.

However, you can compare him to his teammates and his ypc is much lower than the other guys. This is despite the fact that he gets to run the draw much more than the other guys and that is the play we tend to get the best blocking on because Gurode gets a chance to get on the MLB before he knows what is happening.

You also have to consider that so long as Barber has the big contract, he is probably the starter which means Felix doesn't get the carries. Do you think we would have done better yesterday without Barber but with Felix getting more carries. I sure do and no one can convince me otherwise.

Felix is a special player and brings much needed speed to an offense that is as slow as molasses with Barber as the RB. This offense will only go as far as Witten, Austin and Felix will take it. You just don't put a potentially great player like Felix on the bench so Barber can plod along out there.

Great post. I couldn't say it better, so I'm just going to quote this.

 

[Eskimo]

MBIII avg'd 5.7ypc (52 carries) this season in the fourth quarter!
MBIII also avg'd 6.1ypc (19 carries) this season in the fourth quarter when the score was within 7 points....

Felix in the fourth quarter avg'd 3.1ypc (35 carries) and 1.4ypc (10 carries) in the fourth when the score was within 7 points...

Choice in the fourth quarter avg'd 3.9ypc (28 carries) and 4.1ypc (13 carries) in the fourth when the score was within 7 points...

I would say that for Felix and Choice those are incredibly small sample sizes and would not draw any conclusions at all from them.

Barber has proven over the years that he does well against tired defenses. The problem about the "closer" role is that he is paid way too much for such a small niche. He also isn't a good short yardage runner. But the biggest problem is that Garrett overplays him so long as he has him because he values experience so much. The Barber option has to be removed from Garrett for this offense to progress. No one who saw the game can deny the fact that the offense stalled every time Barber went in against the Vikings. I'm not saying we win the game if Felix played, but maybe if Felix played, Flo didn't get injured and Free was in there instead of Colombo.

 

[sonnyboy]

Because money is finite.

What is the point of converting a tailback into a FB , praying he stays healthy and paying him $4M when you can just draft a natural FB in the 4th or 5th round and pay him $100K?

Again, the money matters, because there are other places on the team where it could be used more effectively than a converted FB.

Barber would probably rebel at the idea anyway. I'm sure he doesn't view himself as a FB.

Think you're missing my point.

I'm assuming he's on the 2010 roster. If he should or shouldn't be is an enitrely different matter.
If he counts 4mil on the team, but perhaps only 1 mil if released. Then maybe that's the play.

Assuming he's on the roster..........I think playing time for Barber at FB could help the team.

This isn't about maximizing his value or justifying his presence on the team.
Last thing I want to see us do is jam a round peg in a square hole in an attempt to make up for past mistakes, i.e. signing him to a huge deal.

I just think he could be an outstanding FB and bring skills to the role few traditional FBs do.

 

[wileedog]

That's not what he said. He's saying that when you have a smaller sample size, atypical data skews the results more. Let's say Choice had 10 carries, 9 of which went for 3 yards and 1 that went for 45. That's 72 yards on 10 carries, for 7.2 YPC. Sure, you can say that he averaged 7.2 yards every time he touched the ball, but it's not really indicative of how he actually played. Why? Because there's a 45 yard run that skews the data.

Of course big plays count, but they have to be taken in the proper context.

The bottom line is he went more yards per carry. If Barber had a similar % of 66 yard runs dotted in with his other 4 yard carries, his average would be higher too. But Barber doesn't break nearly as many long gains, which is entirely the point.

Its kind of stupid to argue that every time Choice touches the ball he gains exactly .7 yards more than Barber. But if he runs exactly the same amount of yards as Barber, but every 45 carries he breaks one for 66 yards while barber maybe only does it once every 100 carries, Choice is a better running back.

If you want to use the small sample size argument, then you have already painted me into a corner that I can't prove Choice is a better back, because by your standards he has not been given the proper opportunity to do so. He has however shown in that sample size that he has the potential and deserves the opportunity.

Especially when you throw the stats away and just watch the games.

 

[wileedog]

Most of what you are saying deals with the "here and now". Marion Barber got the contract based on his performance, which I still think was justified.

Paying for past performance is what bad GMs do.

You're seem to be guaranteeing performance from Choice and Jones. I like both of these guys. How long do you think they can perform at their current levels without injury? How long do you get these guys at their price?

I'm not guaranteeing anything, I'm saying there is a higher probability if Jones and Choice are the #1 and 2 backs next year we will be a more productive team than with Barber being the #1 back. Or #2.

I'd like to keep all 3 if possible. Marion needs to compete for the job but his loyalty, service and durability gives him an edge for employment, IMO.

I'm not saying he needs to be cut tomorrow, but if he doesn't show up to the OTAs or camp 100% healthy and show the burst and balance he did 2 years ago then at the minimum he needs to be #3.

And given the special circumstance of 2010 with an uncapped year, and that you can get out of his onerous contract relatively pain free, it is certainly on the table whether he should be back next year. Or even just cut and re-signed to a friendly deal more suitable for a 3rd back.

Barber has never stunk. Let's face it, you call plays where the run is obvious and on the same side of the line three times in a row and you get snuffed, its not the RB's fault. The Cowboys have a problem disguising their plays at times.

No, its not all Garrett's fault that a guy who used to be utterly automatic from the 1 yard line with this same OC can't get in there in 3 tries against SD.

RRW's money has team members scratching their heads. Barber's contract doesn't hardly cause a twitch when you think about it.

Of course it does. $45M for a guy who has never been "the guy" in the backfield in his entire career, including college? And who takes the beatings he does with his style?

Its a terrible contract.

I believe in efficiency but not at the expense of loyal players like Barber. All of the players know its a business but you don't get teams out of revolving doors, not really.

I like winning. One of the better ways to do that I hear is to put your best players on the field.

And shuffling your RBs is hardly a "revolving door."

 

[AmericasTeam31]

I'm not saying he needs to be cut tomorrow, but if he doesn't show up to the OTAs or camp 100% healthy and show the burst and balance he did 2 years ago then at the minimum he needs to be #3.

So you are saying that in the first two games this season he was not explosive, balanced, or able to take on defenders like he did in '07? He was killing the Giants man! He was on his way to another TD when he pulled his quad. After that he was never the same, that we can agree on. But to say that he wasn't the same at any point this season is crazy.

I'm not saying that Barber should get more carries than Felix, or that Choice shouldn't get an increased role in the offense. I'm just saying that to cut Barber based on the facts that you've shown... which, btw, have been nothing more than your opinion...

 

[Thomas82]

cutting him this year it would be cheaper - his contract is back loaded

2010: $3.86 million, 2011: $4.25 million, 2012: $5.75 million, 2013: $6.25 million, 2014: $7 million, 2015: Free Agent

Good info

 

[wileedog]

which, btw, have been nothing more than your opinion...

What else do you want from me?

I tried bringing up stats and was told the sample sizes were too small and backups magically always have better stats.

Short of posting hours of film of the two on YouTube, what would constitute proof in your world that Choice is a better option right now?

And while we're at it, where's your proof that Barber is better?

Remember we can't use stats now, Choice doesn't have enough to compare.

 

[masomenos]

The bottom line is he went more yards per carry. If Barber had a similar % of 66 yard runs dotted in with his other 4 yard carries, his average would be higher too. But Barber doesn't break nearly as many long gains, which is entirely the point.

Its kind of stupid to argue that every time Choice touches the ball he gains exactly .7 yards more than Barber. But if he runs exactly the same amount of yards as Barber, but every 45 carries he breaks one for 66 yards while barber maybe only does it once every 100 carries, Choice is a better running back.

If you want to use the small sample size argument, then you have already painted me into a corner that I can't prove Choice is a better back, because by your standards he has not been given the proper opportunity to do so. He has however shown in that sample size that he has the potential and deserves the opportunity.

Especially when you throw the stats away and just watch the games.

Sample size still matters when you're talking about percentages. It's why you can't accurately compare the batting average or slugging percentage of a player who has 50 at bats with one who has 300. One good game or a good series inflates the data. It also doesn't take into account the fact that the player with more attempts, at bats, etc is playing with the disadvantage of fatigue.

Now, I'll agree that Choice has shown he has potential, but it's hard to argue that he deserves an opportunity to get a significant number of carries. Felix and Barber have both proven more. In Felix's case, it doesn't even seem worth arguing. As for Barber, take a look at all of the players who ran for 900+ yards and compare their YPC. There are 18 players in that group and the average YPC is 4.65. Barber averaged 4.4 yards per carry. Then let's look at all of the players who had a similar number of carries, say +/- 20. That group looks like this...

194 - Jerome Harrison - 4.4
194 - Laurence Maroney - 3.9
210 - Cadillac Williams - 3.9
214 - Marion Barber - 4.4
216 - DeAngelo Williams - 5.2
217 - Kevin Smith - 3.4
219 - Joseph Addai - 3.8
221 - Jonathan Stewart - 5.1
223 - LaDainian Tomlinson - 3.3
224 - Brandon Jacobs 3.7

The players in bold are the ones who averaged more YPC than Barber. As you can see, there are only two. Only one player in that group scored more rushing TDs than Barber. Only 3 had more 20+ yard runs.

 

[AmericasTeam31]

What else do you want from me?

I tried bringing up stats and was told the sample sizes were too small and backups magically always have better stats.

Short of posting hours of film of the two on YouTube, what would constitute proof in your world that Choice is a better option right now?

And while we're at it, where's your proof that Barber is better?

Remember we can't use stats now, Choice doesn't have enough to compare.

But that is exactly my point here. Barber is proven. Even in a year when he is considered "slow, and unbalanced" he produced a 4.4 yard per carry average. With a significant number of carries to consider it proven. Not to mention that he's done enough in his years here to prove that he is a quality back.

My point isn't so much that Choice wouldn't do better, or couldn't do better. It is moreso that Barber still holds a valuable role on this team, and should not be cut. The only game this season that is worth looking at, where neither back was injured and both received significant carries was Denver. And in that one game (not much of a sample size I know) Barber's numbers equalled or bettered those of Choice. Running behind the same line, against the same defense, in the same game.

I guess I'm just not sold, yet.