BE HONEST NOW: Who would you rather have at out-side linebacker?

[Doomsday101]

I believe we will get what we expected, a solid rugged and technically sound player, but not flashy player.

That is what you want at that position. Not some glitzy undersized pass rusher like Lawson. Not some overrated athletic buffoon like Arrington.

Glamour on one side, guts on the other. It works.

I agree but I think Carpenter will show himself as a guy who can get after the QB as well.

 

[junk]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Two things:

1) He high hurdled that other player at Penn State. That is worthy of a Canton induction right there.

2) He is the man who single-handedly drove Troy Aikman into retirement.

This is all true.

Commanders fans have educated me over the years.

You would be best served to learn it too.

I read the first line and thought "What a ...."

Then I read the rest of it.

 

[ravidubey]

Lavar Arrington
Bobby Carpenter
Manny Lawson
Kamerion Wimbley

- Arrington is very agressive and freelances way too much. Sooner or later I just know he's going to make a bonehead play or draw a personal foul penalty and so I couldn't trust him outside. This is particularly frustrating because he's a veteran player and should know better. He'd be great as an ILB, though.

- Lawson's learning curve and lack of size as reported in the SF press are putting me off. I like his upside as a pass rusher, but am surprised by how light he is. He has too much to learn to play SOLB for any length of time this year. If he puts on weight, then he can play WOLB.

- Wimbley is going to be very good, but again I just have no idea what he'd be like in coverage. I think he'd be perfect on the weak side where you could take advantage of his size and pass-rushing ability. I like Demarcus Ware better .

- That leaves Carpenter. He was made to be an SOLB, and playing in a 3-4 will only make him better because he'll have to cover less range. He plays wild, but Parcells believes Carpenter's dad taught him right. Of the above choices this is the player who can best help both right away and in the future.

 

[Alexander]

- Arrington is very agressive and freelances way too much. Sooner or later I just know he's going to make a bonehead play or draw a personal foul penalty and so I couldn't trust him outside. This is particularly frustrating because he's a veteran player and should know better. He'd be great as an ILB, though.

That sums the player up perfectly. That is what mystified me this offseason when people actually wanted Arrington in a Cowboy uniform. A player that cannot carry out his assignments and does his own thing is probably not a good fit, nor is a player whose trademark is drawing penalties and making idiotic decisions on the football field. I don't care how talented he is, he has to offset his mistakes with big plays. That is not someone you can depend on.

- Lawson's learning curve and lack of size as reported in the SF press are putting me off. I like his upside as a pass rusher, but am surprised by how light he is. He has too much to learn to play SOLB for any length of time this year. If he puts on weight, then he can play WOLB.

Which is why Ireland I believe explained it best: we did not take him because that would mean we would have to move Ware. That point was reiterated numerous times during the Lawson/Carpenter debates around here, but some dismissed it and said move Ware or were confident Lawson could handle the strongside. If Ware weren't around, I would have taken Lawson and been quite happy.

- Wimbley is going to be very good, but again I just have no idea what he'd be like in coverage. I think he'd be perfect on the weak side where you could take advantage of his size and pass-rushing ability. I like Demarcus Ware better .

Another case where he will be doing what Ware does. We have Ware. We don't need his clone.

- That leaves Carpenter. He was made to be an SOLB, and playing in a 3-4 will only make him better because he'll have to cover less range. He plays wild, but Parcells believes Carpenter's dad taught him right. Of the above choices this is the player who can best help both right away and in the future.

That sounds about right.

 

[Qwickdraw]

Arrington (if he wasn't anti Cowboy)

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Arrington is a proven player in the NFL regardless of what most of us might want to say.

I'd take a proven player (Still young) over an unproven player any day of the week. I don't like Arrington but I would take him over an unknown quantity any time.

Gotta believe that if all things were equal and the Cowboys were offered Arrington for Carpenter straight up, the Cowboys would do that deal in nothing flat. JMO>

 

[superpunk]

Arrington is a proven player in the NFL regardless of what most of us might want to say.

I'd take a proven player (Still young) over an unproven player any day of the week. I don't like Arrington but I would take him over an unknown quantity any time.

Arrington is a proven quantity - you're right. Proven that he misses assignments. Misses time with injury. Makes bonehead plays. Plays undisciplined, to the point where Marvin Lewis (who was DYING to work with him) said he was killing his team.

being "proven" isn't always a bed of roses.

Gotta believe that if all things were equal and the Cowboys were offered Arrington for Carpenter straight up, the Cowboys would do that deal in nothing flat. JMO>

They could have had Arrington.

 

[Alexander]

Arrington is a proven player in the NFL regardless of what most of us might want to say.

Proven what? Hype?

Michael Vick is a "proven player". Would you pass over a qualified rookie who can do the things you want him to do just to take the "proven player"?

I'd take a proven player (Still young) over an unproven player any day of the week. I don't like Arrington but I would take him over an unknown quantity any time.

Then I suppose we made a grave mistake? I don't understand your "proven" statement. All Arrington has proven is that he is high maintenance, makes mistakes on the field consistently and cannot be trusted to play with discipline and within a scheme.

If you sign him and intend to let him be the centerpiece of your defense, scheme with him in mind and decide to let him do whatever he wants, then your approach makes sense. Just like with Michael Vick. But if you take a loose cannon like that and try to fit them within a system that is not catering to their strengths, it rarely works like you want it to.

Gotta believe that if all things were equal and the Cowboys were offered Arrington for Carpenter straight up, the Cowboys would do that deal in nothing flat. JMO>

We had every opportunity in the world to sign him, but didn't express any interest, but we would do that trade? Wow.

 

[aceware94]

Lavar's career is on the downturn.
Carpenter is overhyped imo, a younger Al Singleton.
Wimbley is the best pick now.
Manny Lawson, is a lil' light, but his upside is huge.

I wish they would have gone w/ Manny Lawson, give him a year to put on 15-20 pounds and get stronger. Carpenter is a decent pick, just imo not the playmaker they need oppossite Ware. He'll be a 100+ tackle,4-5 sack, decent run stopping olb. I wanted a 80+ tackle, 8-12 sack, qb pressurring OLB oppossite Ware.

 

[Alexander]

Carpenter is a decent pick, just imo not the playmaker they need oppossite Ware. He'll be a 100+ tackle,4-5 sack, decent run stopping olb. I wanted a 80+ tackle, 8-12 sack, qb pressurring OLB oppossite Ware.

So you want your strong side linebacker to be your pass rusher? 20 tackles less where the run often goes, but those 3-7 extra sacks are what makes a better player? You must be joking.

Someone call Bill Parcells, Jeff Ireland and Jerry Jones. We got the pick wrong.

 

[Silverstar]

I really liked Wimbley more than Carpenter and still do. I had no idea, that Wimbley would get drafted so quickly though. Carp is a Cowboy now, so I'll root for him to make a name for himself. I hope he does and squashes any doubts I have about him.

However, if he gets injured like Burnett did....:grrr:

 

[superpunk]

I don't think there was a "wrong" pick there. It all depended on what we wanted to do defensively. Did we want alternating bookend pass-rushers, or did we need a more stable force on the other side. It's not like Carp is a pass-rushing slouch, or anything. Wimbley would have been my choice, but obviously, he was unavailable...

Some quotes from a Commanders fan, who is also an OSU fan (I respect his opinion enormously - I know, crazy....)

It was the other way around...

Carpenter was the guy they used to drop into coverage, stuff the run, play man-to-man on TEs and RBs... That left Hawk free to do whatever he wanted on the field...

Sound anything like what we want to achieve?

I made this comparison before the draft, and I still think its the perfect one...

AJ Hawk is to LaVar Arrington as Bobby Carpenter is to Marcus Washington.

AJ Hawk is regarded as the better athlete, and he certainly made more of the flashy plays that end up on Sportscenter... But Carpenter was the more consistent and steady of the two...

Thats not to say one is better than the other (altho I'd prefer Carpenter), but their roles in the defense were different. Carpenter was used more to take players out of the offense... Hawk was used more to go after the ball.

For your defense, Carpenter was a MUCH better pick than Lawson. You already have a Lawson. Carpenter is going to be able to cover the TEs and RBs and allow Ware to focus more on rushing the passer... thats pretty much all Lawson is going to bring to the 49ers, too... you can pretty much expect him to be completely lost doing anything other than pass-rushing... at least for a while...

To be completely honest, I never really understood all the hoopla about Lawson, anyway. Its certainly not going to surprise me if he doesn't pan out...

Just some food for thought...

 

[Doomsday101]

I really liked Wimbley more than Carpenter and still do. I had no idea, that Wimbley would get drafted so quickly though. Carp is a Cowboy now, so I'll root for him to make a name for himself. I hope he does and squashes any doubts I have about him.

However, if he gets injured like Burnett did....:grrr:

Injuries can happen to any of them including Lawson and Wimbley. Thing about Carpenter he is a LB not a guy having to change position or add weight to be able to do the job. Dallas already has a player who was a DE who is trying to learn the position of LB the last thing we need is another guy playing out of position. It seems the only thing people are looking at is the ability to rush the passer but the job of LB is a lot more than just going after the QB. Carpenter has shown in the college ranks handle all the resposibilties that come with the job of OLB

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Proven what? Hype?

Michael Vick is a "proven player". Would you pass over a qualified rookie who can do the things you want him to do just to take the "proven player"?



Then I suppose we made a grave mistake? I don't understand your "proven" statement. All Arrington has proven is that he is high maintenance, makes mistakes on the field consistently and cannot be trusted to play with discipline and within a scheme.

If you sign him and intend to let him be the centerpiece of your defense, scheme with him in mind and decide to let him do whatever he wants, then your approach makes sense. Just like with Michael Vick. But if you take a loose cannon like that and try to fit them within a system that is not catering to their strengths, it rarely works like you want it to.



We had every opportunity in the world to sign him, but didn't express any interest, but we would do that trade? Wow.

I do not concure. Arrington has accomplished things in the NFL. We say he is undisciplined and that may be true. However, we don't know exactly how he was used and if I know Greg Williams, which I do, he has allowed Arrington a certain amount of freedom in his defensive scheme. Many of the same things were said about DJ, while at Texas, when in reality, DJ was free by design many times.

I have watched Arrington play and I would have to say that he does have skills. He can play at a high level in the NFL. That is my opinion.

Would I take Vick over who? I probably wouldn't take him over Quinn but I would probably take him over Leinart or Cutler. The biggest difference I see in your example is that I don't believe that Vick has proven he can play the QB position the way you want. I do believe that Arrington has proven this in the past.

Lastly, I said if all things were equal. We didn't sign Arrington because we didn't want to pay what he was asking for. However, if all things were equal, that means money too Al, but you knew that didn't you.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't think there was a "wrong" pick there. It all depended on what we wanted to do defensively. Did we want alternating bookend pass-rushers, or did we need a more stable force on the other side. It's not like Carp is a pass-rushing slouch, or anything. Wimbley would have been my choice, but obviously, he was unavailable...

Some quotes from a Commanders fan, who is also an OSU fan (I respect his opinion enormously - I know, crazy....)

It was the other way around...

Carpenter was the guy they used to drop into coverage, stuff the run, play man-to-man on TEs and RBs... That left Hawk free to do whatever he wanted on the field...

Sound anything like what we want to achieve?

I made this comparison before the draft, and I still think its the perfect one...

AJ Hawk is to LaVar Arrington as Bobby Carpenter is to Marcus Washington.

AJ Hawk is regarded as the better athlete, and he certainly made more of the flashy plays that end up on Sportscenter... But Carpenter was the more consistent and steady of the two...

Thats not to say one is better than the other (altho I'd prefer Carpenter), but their roles in the defense were different. Carpenter was used more to take players out of the offense... Hawk was used more to go after the ball.

For your defense, Carpenter was a MUCH better pick than Lawson. You already have a Lawson. Carpenter is going to be able to cover the TEs and RBs and allow Ware to focus more on rushing the passer... thats pretty much all Lawson is going to bring to the 49ers, too... you can pretty much expect him to be completely lost doing anything other than pass-rushing... at least for a while...

To be completely honest, I never really understood all the hoopla about Lawson, anyway. Its certainly not going to surprise me if he doesn't pan out...

Just some food for thought...

I work with an OSU alumi and as far as he is concerned Carpenter was the best LB at OSU. He says this not as a fan of the Cowboys because he is not a Cowboy fan at all. Just his opinion as a fan of OSU and an opinion I hope turns out to be true.

 

[adbutcher]

I wanted us to draft Lawson, but, I am now a big Carpenter fan!

 

[Hostile]

I would have been fine with any of the 3 Draft Picks. I did not want Lavar Arrington at all.

 

[superpunk]

I do not concure. Arrington has accomplished things in the NFL. We say he is undisciplined and that may be true. However, we don't know exactly how he was used and if I know Greg Williams, which I do, he has allowed Arrington a certain amount of freedom in his defensive scheme. Many of the same things were said about DJ, while at Texas, when in reality, DJ was free by design many times.

Link

Just a clip....

Marvin's lived in Pittsburgh. Created monsters there. He coached the Steelers linebackers for four seasons, and they all owe him. Greg Lloyd? Marvin made him. Levon Kirkland? Made him, too. Chad Brown? Got him a fat free agent contract. It was while he was in Pittsburgh that he first heard about a prep linebacker from North Hills High. The kid was always breaking people's collarbones, and he punted and played tailback, too. One night he was punting from his own goal line, and when the snap sailed over his head, he retrieved it and ran 108 yards for a TD. Marvin saw that one on the tube, and chuckled. Wondered if he'd get his hands on the kid some day.

The kid was coming out of Penn State around the time Marvin was turning Ray Lewis loose in Baltimore. They bumped into each other on an airplane, and the kid wanted to know all about Marvin's Steelers linebackers.

"We battled each other," Marvin told him.

"Seriously?"

"We battled. I battled every day with Greg Lloyd, with Chad Brown. I battle with Jamie Sharper in Baltimore, I battle with Peter Boulware."

"Ray, too?"

"No, not Ray. Ray generally gets it."

That was the last time they spoke -- until the Commanders pursued Marvin to be their defensive coordinator last winter. Marvin almost turned them down, but the money was outrageous, and he remembered the kid from North Hills. "LaVar is one of the reasons why you come," he says. But Marvin got to DC and started watching game film, and he couldn't believe the brainless way No. 56 played. "He ran around like a chicken with his head cut off," Marvin says.

So Marvin and LaVar were going to battle too. Marvin was going to ask LaVar to be a stay-in-your-gap linebacker on first and second downs and a pass-rushing defensive end on third. Marvin was going to try what Ray Rhodes tried during LaVar's rookie year: rein him in. Rhodes failed, of course, because LaVar was doubled over half the time. "I had a little belly on me," LaVar says. "The coaches didn't like me. I was new money. I was eating out every day, eating the wrong things. Too lax."

The team went 8–8, Rhodes was replaced by Kurt Schottenheimer, Marty's little brother. LaVar loved that Kurt and Marty asked him to just chase the football, and he turned an 0–5 season around with an interception return against Carolina. But the team went 8–8 again, and Dan Snyder made his annual coaching change. In came the Steve Spurrier-Marvin Lewis regime. Imagine LaVar's surprise when Marvin told him he'd been doing everything wrong.

"He killed them last year, killed his own team," Marvin says. "Against Chicago, critical third down, he doesn't cover the back. Back catches the ball for a first down. A guy I could cover. And they lose."

Then how did Arrington make the Pro Bowl?

"It's like I told him: You'll be on SportsCenter for your big hits, and you might go to the Pro Bowl, but we'll win six games," Marvin says. "Or you can do it right, and we can win 12 games."

So is LaVar just a role player now?

"That's what everybody is," Marvin says. "If you want to win, you need 11 role players."

Marvin's options were to change the scheme or change LaVar, and the scheme stayed. He assigned LaVar a personal coach, Jimmy Collins, because LaVar now had play calls to make. When word of a Marvin-LaVar philosophical rift went public after Week 3, Marvin demanded they talk it out. "And if he won't talk to me, I'll follow him to the locker room," Marvin says. "We're not going to do that fraction crap that breaks teams apart."

But too late. During games, LaVar would break the huddle and raise his palms up. "When he raises his hands it means, 'I don't know this call, I'm just going to be LaVar,' " says teammate Jessie Armstead. Lewis benched him a play in Frisco for doing that. And on the plane home from that game, LaVar told friends, "I didn't come here to be a defensive end." That's when his mama stopped watching.

"Listen, I don't have a problem with Marvin," LaVar says. "A lot of players bash their coaches and get away with it. And I'm not a fool -- I'm in a perfect position to bash him, if I wanted to. I'm coming off a Pro Bowl season. I could sit here and say, yeah, I turned last season around. But I don't buy into that. He's my coach. I'm not going to do no Terrell Owens-Steve Mariucci, because I'm no *******. I'm just uptight.

"Two seasons, and all I am is 8–8. I've just got to start ballin' again. Like I balled back in the day."

 

[superpunk]

I work with an OSU alumi and as far as he is concerned Carpenter was the best LB at OSU. He says this not as a fan of the Cowboys because he is not a Cowboy fan at all. Just his opinion as a fan of OSU and an opinion I hope turns out to be true.

I'm getting alot of that from the OSU fans and alumni I know. Not that Carp was the best, but he was more solid, better in coverage, against linemen.

Considering that's exactly what we want him to do....

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm getting alot of that from the OSU fans and alumni I know. Not that Carp was the best, but he was more solid, better in coverage, against linemen.

Considering that's exactly what we want him to do....

I agree. I think Dallas did get the best overall LB. He may not be the best pure pass rusher but as I mentioned before the OLB job is more than just a pass rushing position. You must be able to handle the run and Carpenter at the point of attack has shown the ability to fight off the blocker and make the tackle. In the NFC East you better be able to shut down the run because if you don't Wash and NY will run all day on you.