BE HONEST NOW: Who would you rather have at out-side linebacker?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Link

Just a clip....

Marvin's lived in Pittsburgh. Created monsters there. He coached the Steelers linebackers for four seasons, and they all owe him. Greg Lloyd? Marvin made him. Levon Kirkland? Made him, too. Chad Brown? Got him a fat free agent contract. It was while he was in Pittsburgh that he first heard about a prep linebacker from North Hills High. The kid was always breaking people's collarbones, and he punted and played tailback, too. One night he was punting from his own goal line, and when the snap sailed over his head, he retrieved it and ran 108 yards for a TD. Marvin saw that one on the tube, and chuckled. Wondered if he'd get his hands on the kid some day.

The kid was coming out of Penn State around the time Marvin was turning Ray Lewis loose in Baltimore. They bumped into each other on an airplane, and the kid wanted to know all about Marvin's Steelers linebackers.

"We battled each other," Marvin told him.

"Seriously?"

"We battled. I battled every day with Greg Lloyd, with Chad Brown. I battle with Jamie Sharper in Baltimore, I battle with Peter Boulware."

"Ray, too?"

"No, not Ray. Ray generally gets it."

That was the last time they spoke -- until the Commanders pursued Marvin to be their defensive coordinator last winter. Marvin almost turned them down, but the money was outrageous, and he remembered the kid from North Hills. "LaVar is one of the reasons why you come," he says. But Marvin got to DC and started watching game film, and he couldn't believe the brainless way No. 56 played. "He ran around like a chicken with his head cut off," Marvin says.

So Marvin and LaVar were going to battle too. Marvin was going to ask LaVar to be a stay-in-your-gap linebacker on first and second downs and a pass-rushing defensive end on third. Marvin was going to try what Ray Rhodes tried during LaVar's rookie year: rein him in. Rhodes failed, of course, because LaVar was doubled over half the time. "I had a little belly on me," LaVar says. "The coaches didn't like me. I was new money. I was eating out every day, eating the wrong things. Too lax."

The team went 8–8, Rhodes was replaced by Kurt Schottenheimer, Marty's little brother. LaVar loved that Kurt and Marty asked him to just chase the football, and he turned an 0–5 season around with an interception return against Carolina. But the team went 8–8 again, and Dan Snyder made his annual coaching change. In came the Steve Spurrier-Marvin Lewis regime. Imagine LaVar's surprise when Marvin told him he'd been doing everything wrong.

"He killed them last year, killed his own team," Marvin says. "Against Chicago, critical third down, he doesn't cover the back. Back catches the ball for a first down. A guy I could cover. And they lose."

Then how did Arrington make the Pro Bowl?

"It's like I told him: You'll be on SportsCenter for your big hits, and you might go to the Pro Bowl, but we'll win six games," Marvin says. "Or you can do it right, and we can win 12 games."

So is LaVar just a role player now?

"That's what everybody is," Marvin says. "If you want to win, you need 11 role players."

Marvin's options were to change the scheme or change LaVar, and the scheme stayed. He assigned LaVar a personal coach, Jimmy Collins, because LaVar now had play calls to make. When word of a Marvin-LaVar philosophical rift went public after Week 3, Marvin demanded they talk it out. "And if he won't talk to me, I'll follow him to the locker room," Marvin says. "We're not going to do that fraction crap that breaks teams apart."

But too late. During games, LaVar would break the huddle and raise his palms up. "When he raises his hands it means, 'I don't know this call, I'm just going to be LaVar,' " says teammate Jessie Armstead. Lewis benched him a play in Frisco for doing that. And on the plane home from that game, LaVar told friends, "I didn't come here to be a defensive end." That's when his mama stopped watching.

"Listen, I don't have a problem with Marvin," LaVar says. "A lot of players bash their coaches and get away with it. And I'm not a fool -- I'm in a perfect position to bash him, if I wanted to. I'm coming off a Pro Bowl season. I could sit here and say, yeah, I turned last season around. But I don't buy into that. He's my coach. I'm not going to do no Terrell Owens-Steve Mariucci, because I'm no *******. I'm just uptight.

"Two seasons, and all I am is 8–8. I've just got to start ballin' again. Like I balled back in the day."

This is an interesting read. One that I'd never seen before. Thank you for posting that. That about sums it up in my view. Arrington has athletic ability that you don't see every day. Not even in this draft. It's hard for me to condem him without knowing all the circumstances involved. I don't believe he is blameless but I do believe that you coach to your talent. You don't coach to your scheme. If you have no talent, then I can see adopting a scheme and drafting to fit it. If you have a guy who can be a difference maker, I think you put him in a scheme that will allow him to use his skills. I don't honestly like Arrington very much but I do acknowledge the fact that he has ability beyond almost any other LB in the NFL right now. He could be very dangerous, IMO, if somebody could figure out how to use his skills. JMO.

 

[superpunk]

This is an interesting read. One that I'd never seen before. Thank you for posting that. That about sums it up in my view. Arrington has athletic ability that you don't see every day. Not even in this draft. It's hard for me to condem him without knowing all the circumstances involved. I don't believe he is blameless but I do believe that you coach to your talent. You don't coach to your scheme. If you have no talent, then I can see adopting a scheme and drafting to fit it. If you have a guy who can be a difference maker, I think you put him in a scheme that will allow him to use his skills. I don't honestly like Arrington very much but I do acknowledge the fact that he has ability beyond almost any other LB in the NFL right now. He could be very dangerous, IMO, if somebody could figure out how to use his skills. JMO.

Paterno and Schottenheimer did - and what did it get them? They let him chase the ball like a madman, and Lewis, my personal favorite coach in the league (yes, above Parcells) couldn't coach him. No player, regardless of how talented they are, can be allowed to just "chase the ball" all the time. Gap responsibilities, etc, all dictate that at times, the player has to stay within the system, learn his responsibilities.

In 6 years, Arrington has not shown that ability. Plenty of guys have talent, and his is other-worldly. Does no good if that talent can't be harnessed, though.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Arrington is a proven player in the NFL regardless of what most of us might want to say.

I'd take a proven player (Still young) over an unproven player any day of the week. I don't like Arrington but I would take him over an unknown quantity any time.

Gotta believe that if all things were equal and the Cowboys were offered Arrington for Carpenter straight up, the Cowboys would do that deal in nothing flat. JMO>

arrington is proven that he makes plays. but he also misses assignments. free lances too much. lives off his reputation and is injury prone, and will miss half the season. arrington offers no upside.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Lavar's career is on the downturn.
Carpenter is overhyped imo, a younger Al Singleton.
Wimbley is the best pick now.
Manny Lawson, is a lil' light, but his upside is huge.

I wish they would have gone w/ Manny Lawson, give him a year to put on 15-20 pounds and get stronger. Carpenter is a decent pick, just imo not the playmaker they need oppossite Ware. He'll be a 100+ tackle,4-5 sack, decent run stopping olb. I wanted a 80+ tackle, 8-12 sack, qb pressurring OLB oppossite Ware.

that's what people mis-understand. If lawson puts on 15-20 pounds he will lose some of his quickness...so he will be the same as carpenter...lawson rana 4.45 and carpenter a 4.55.....

lawson is a risk since you don't know if he can play OLB. we took a risk with ware and it paid off. lets not gamble again. Carpenter is a proven commodity.

Wimbley plays the weakside. he is got the same measurables as carpenter. but he has never played OLB.

carpenter is and was the only SOLB in the draft who played in a 3-4. he is the only proven commodity.

picking between the three is like picking a needle from a haystack. they are so close. but carpenter is defintely the most proven commodity of the bunch.

carpenter did have some sacks in college. lets not forget. we are not getting chicken little here....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well Fellas, all I can say to you is that we will see. We are going to have an opportunity to see Arrington twice a year. We will see if he is all most of you claim of if he, indeed is a good NFL player.

When I posted what I did, I expected most would not agree and that is OK. I just hope we are not in a situation where we end up humbled by the very player we are all eager to dismiss as undisciplined and a liability to the point of failure.

I look at Arrington and I don't see many circumstances all that different from TO. I was not for the TO signing either but to me, I do see parallels there.

 

[adbutcher]

I would have been fine with any of the 3 Draft Picks. I did not want Lavar Arrington at all.

I am right there with you bro. IMO, he put the OH in overrated.

 

[superpunk]

ABQ....you do realize, that we've been facing him twice a year for the last 6 years, right?

When we won all but three of those contests - and two of those three, he didn't play in at all, or more than a few plays...

LaVar Arrington has had the pleasure of beating the Cowboys (while playing a significant role) once. Just once.

This is suddenly going to change just because he moved further up I-95? I have my doubts....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

ABQ....you do realize, that we've been facing him twice a year for the last 6 years, right?

When we won all but three of those contests - and two of those three, he didn't play in at all, or more than a few plays...

LaVar Arrington has had the pleasure of beating the Cowboys (while playing a significant role) once. Just once.

This is suddenly going to change just because he moved further up I-95? I have my doubts....

You may have your doubts but I'll offer this up for you to consider. The Skins are 2-2 against us in the last 4 meetings. In 2004, we won by 3 point in both contests. Defensively, they got it done. Offensively, they could do nothing. Last year, they swept us. With everything on the line, we got crushed by the Skins 35-7. They went to the playoffs, we went home. Spare me your lesson here. It's lacking in substance.

Arrington has joined the Giants. In the last 4 seasons, we're something like 3 and 5 against the Giants with 2 of those wins coming in 2002, the year they were severly injured. Last 4 games, we are 1 and 3 with our only win coming in OT. You know the game. Can you honestly say we out played them? The truth is that they made a mistake and it cost them the game. That's the truth.

Here is What the Giants have this year:

QB Manning, Hasselbeck
WRs Toomer, Burress, Carter
RB Carter, Jacobs, Cloud
TE Shocky, Tony Jackson, Lewis
OL McKinzie, Snee, O'Hare, Diehl, Petitgout with Whitfield backing up OT.
DL Strahan, Allan, Joseph, Duckett, Umenyiora, Tuck and Moore.
LB Arrington, Pierce, Short, Greisen, Torbor, Phifer, Smith
DB Demps, Webster, McQuarters, Madison, Buckley, Alexander and Wilson.

Drafted Kiwanuka, Moss, Wilkinson, Cofield, Whimper, Peprah and McPherson.

This aint exactly been real affraid of us and they aint exactly gotten weaker this off season. I'm watching whats going on.

 

[Alexander]

This aint exactly been real affraid of us and they aint exactly gotten weaker this off season. I'm watching whats going on.

You totally missed the point, I believe.

He was saying Arrington has been far from a bane to our existence as a Commander, but you fear him as a Giant (and as a SOLB also). Unless Coughlin is real creative, Arrington will be covering a TE moreso than he will be blitzing. I am more concerned about their ends than I am Arrington.

 

[superpunk]

You may have your doubts but I'll offer this up for you to consider. The Skins are 2-2 against us in the last 4 meetings.

Shockingly, Arrington was out of the lineup, or barely played in both of their wins. Even more shocking, that he didn't really play in either game the year before either.

In 2004, we won by 3 point in both contests.

You mean those two games LaVar didn't play in, or played minimally?

Check Lavar's stat sheet - 0's across the board in 04.

Defensively, they got it done. Offensively, they could do nothing. Last year, they swept us. With everything on the line, we got crushed by the Skins 35-7. They went to the playoffs, we went home. Spare me your lesson here. It's lacking in substance.

Some substance in yours....using four games LaVar barely played in, or didn't play at all.

Pardon me, while I

To be serious, though, Arrington COULD flip that switch in NY. He COULD all of a sudden start to approach his potential, rather than getting by on being one of the most overrated players in the game. He COULD start giving a crap about his defensive assignments, instead of just chasing all the time, trying to make huge plays, and hurting his team in the process.

But he's had six years, and some of the best coaches in the business to achieve that under. So far - he hasn't.

 

[superpunk]

You totally missed the point, I believe.

He was saying Arrington has been far from a bane to our existence as a Commander, but you fear him as a Giant (and as a SOLB also). Unless Coughlin is real creative, Arrington will be covering a TE moreso than he will be blitzing. I am more concerned about their ends than I am Arrington.

Bingo. Osi and Strahan worry me much more than a player who we've already been successfully facing twice a year his entire career.

 

[Doomsday101]

In my opinion Arrington free lances too much and it creates holes in the defense when he is breaking his assignments. When he is playing under control he can be a very good player but all to often he is out doing his own thing and that can hurt a defensive unit. I think if he does this in NY Strahan will set him straight that is if Coughlin does not do it 1st.

 

[t.o.boys81]

Carpenter. He fits with Ware more than the others.

 

[Doomsday]

Lavar Arrington
Bobby Carpenter
Manny Lawson
Kamerion Wimbley

Carpenter! He is the best fit for our current roster / scheme. Arrington makes big plays but he also gives up big plays and doesnt play within the scheme, something I dont like would go well over well with BP. Carpenter is versatile and will be solid as a rock, plus hes a lot cheaper to sign. Lawson is just way too slendor for the strong side and I think Ware needs to stay where he is. I dont really know anything about Wimbley.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You totally missed the point, I believe.

He was saying Arrington has been far from a bane to our existence as a Commander, but you fear him as a Giant (and as a SOLB also). Unless Coughlin is real creative, Arrington will be covering a TE moreso than he will be blitzing. I am more concerned about their ends than I am Arrington.

No, I did not miss the point at all. The Skins are more then holding there own against us in recent history. If your going to say that he wasn't a difference, OK, but I don't know how you could prove that by looking at what the Skins have done while he was there. In 04, they played us well both times and really should have probably split with us at the very least. In 2005, they beat us both times and they beat us when it mattered soundly. I just think that you add his talent to the talent that is already in NY and he is going to become a better player because of it.

 

[t.o.boys81]

Carpenter! He is the best fit for our current roster / scheme. Arrington makes big plays but he also gives up big plays and doesnt play within the scheme, something I dont like would go well over well with BP. Carpenter is versatile and will be solid as a rock, plus hes a lot cheaper to sign. Lawson is just way too slendor for the strong side and I think Ware needs to stay where he is. I dont really know anything about Wimbley.

I couldn't agree more. Carpenter is going to fit in perfectly alongside DeMarcus.

 

[Alexander]

No, I did not miss the point at all. The Skins are more then holding there own against us in recent history. If your going to say that he wasn't a difference, OK,

Actually, I believe that was the point. He's wasn't. He was a total non-factor, but you appear to believe a change of scenery is going to turn him into a factor.

but I don't know how you could prove that by looking at what the Skins have done while he was there.

Of course I could. Go back and count the number of ignorant mistakes and penalties Arrington made versus the number of game-changing plays he made against some pretty bad Cowboy teams. He wasn't exactly L.T. against Danny White out there.

In 04, they played us well both times and really should have probably split with us at the very least. In 2005, they beat us both times and they beat us when it mattered soundly.

Did Arrington even play in the first game? I don't recall him being much of a factor, so I don't understand what you are attempting to prove with this train of thought.

I just think that you add his talent to the talent that is already in NY and he is going to become a better player because of it.

Is that talent going to make him smarter? Better in coverage? Less prone to free-lance?

 

[superpunk]

No, I did not miss the point at all. The Skins are more then holding there own against us in recent history. If your going to say that he wasn't a difference, OK, but I don't know how you could prove that by looking at what the Skins have done while he was there. In 04, they played us well both times and really should have probably split with us at the very least. In 2005, they beat us both times and they beat us when it mattered soundly. I just think that you add his talent to the talent that is already in NY and he is going to become a better player because of it.

LaVar in games against the Cowboys, past two years...

2004

Game 1 - Did not play

Game 2 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

2005

Game 1 - 1 tackle, limited snaps

Game 2 - Did not play

 

[Alexander]

LaVar in games against the Cowboys, past two years...

2004

Game 1 - Did not play

Game 2 - 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

2005

Game 1 - 1 tackle, limited snaps

Game 2 - Did not play

He is going to KILL US!
A regular bane to our existence.

 

[superpunk]

He is going to KILL US!

That's certainly been the case the past two years.

edit: I'm quick.