Before you say we draft poorly

[TNCowboy]

The OP's entire premise is foolish. The Cowboys drafting doesn't look so bad when compared to the rest of the NFC east? What does that prove? The only division worse right now is the abysmal AFC South, where, you guessed it, most of the teams have drafted pitifully.

And what does it matter if a late round draft pick you drafted in the last year or two is still on your roster? That often speaks volumes about your salary cap situation or the overall poor quality of your roster.

How many of the better players drafted the last few years have big strings attached? Most of them. Jones loves to gamble on the off chance it might work out. Like with Sean Lee. Lee is a fantastic player, but, fulfilling every concern that other teams had about him when he was in the draft, he's been one of the league's most oft injured.

Fact is, the team only has a small handful of decent players that have been added since Bill Parcells left town, and the players acquired under Parcells are obviously in decline. The roster isn't very good, has no depth, and all of that should be dumped at the feet of Jones.

 

[theSHOW]

Is that a joke? You do watch other football teams, right?

no joke lets see your list.

 

[xwalker]

While I agree that players need to start contributing a lot sooner these days, I don’t agree with your assessment that we’re not hurt by the 2008, 2009 drafts.

Most of the difference makers on your team should come from the first and second round picks (I would also include your 3rd but that’s debatable).

The average player should reach his prime (in terms of physical ability and experience) around the end of his first contract and all being well maintain it for 3+ years.

So taking Mike Jenkins as an example, he should have hit is prime by 2012, the year we drafted Claiborne and should be a mainstay of the defense now.

Instead he’s gone and we spent a first and second on Claiborne and he’s not giving us much either.

So we’ve spent two firsts and a second on players that haven’t helped this team in the last four games.

That hurts and what’s more it’s not the only example you could find in the last 10 or more years.

Jenkins had no affect on the Claiborne pick. Carr got the contract that Jenkins would have received if Jenkins had lived uo to his draft status. Carr was signed before Claiborne was drafted.

They could not have signed Carr if Jenkins had been good enough to get a contract.

If you sign a player to a 2nd contract, it does not matter who originally drafted that player.

Buffalo drafted andy Levitre, a player the Cowboys could have drafted in 2009. Buffalo benefitted from that player in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012; however, in 2013 he was a free agent and signed with Tennessee. It would have cost Buffalo the same amount to keep him as it cost Tennessee to sign him. The benefit to Buffalo for making a better pick than Dallas made in 2009 now has no benefit to Buffalo.

 

[IrishAnto]

Jenkins had no affect on the Claiborne pick. Carr got the contract that Jenkins would have received if Jenkins had lived uo to his draft status. Carr was signed before Claiborne was drafted.

They could not have signed Carr if Jenkins had been good enough to get a contract.

If you sign a player to a 2nd contract, it does not matter who originally drafted that player.

Buffalo drafted andy Levitre, a player the Cowboys could have drafted in 2009. Buffalo benefitted from that player in 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012; however, in 2013 he was a free agent and signed with Tennessee. It would have cost Buffalo the same amount to keep him as it cost Tennessee to sign him. The benefit to Buffalo for making a better pick than Dallas made in 2009 now has no benefit to Buffalo.

Sorry but your missing the point.

When you draft a player in the 1st & 2nd round you’re not doing it in the hope of letting him go as soon as his first contract is up.

You hope to get at least two contracts out of him so you can benefit from having a player in his prime and so you can spend the next pick on another area of need.

The point about Jenkins is that we shouldn’t have had to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on another corner (in this instance both on Claiborne) when Jenkins should have been in his prime for Dallas.

We could have used both picks on other positions (DL, OL for instance).

Levitre may have no benefit to Buffalo now, but he while he was there.

In addition Buffalo would need to replace him at the expense of using the draft/free agency on another position.

Let’s also not forget that signing players via free agency is nearly always more expensive that getting a player through the draft, so if we had developed Jenkins and even drafted Claiborne we wouldn’t have had to spend $50 mill on Carr.

 

[Common Sense]

no joke lets see your list.

I would venture to say that every team in the league probably has at least a pair of undrafted free agents starting for them.

 

[theSHOW]

add another 2013 starter Barry Church. Hmmm 3 starters name another team with three UFA starters

oh just thought of our Left Offensive starting guard Ronald Leary. I won't get into our long snapper and kicker lol since they are STrs not starters.. and yes you are correct that each team has a bunch of UFAs that make the team. Many come and go to replace injured players. Remember on average each team has one 1st round player per season. I would wager that since 20120 Dallas has worked out 200 UFAs or more.

 

[xwalker]

Sorry but your missing the point.

When you draft a player in the 1st & 2nd round you’re not doing it in the hope of letting him go as soon as his first contract is up.

You hope to get at least two contracts out of him so you can benefit from having a player in his prime and so you can spend the next pick on another area of need.

The point about Jenkins is that we shouldn’t have had to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick on another corner (in this instance both on Claiborne) when Jenkins should have been in his prime for Dallas.

We could have used both picks on other positions (DL, OL for instance).

Levitre may have no benefit to Buffalo now, but he while he was there.

In addition Buffalo would need to replace him at the expense of using the draft/free agency on another position.

Let’s also not forget that signing players via free agency is nearly always more expensive that getting a player through the draft, so if we had developed Jenkins and even drafted Claiborne we wouldn’t have had to spend $50 mill on Carr.

The flaw in your logic is that draft picks sign significantly smaller 2nd contracts than equally talented free agents.

Sean Lee's contract is only slightly smaller than Patick Willis' contract and Willis is not injury prone.

People are just emotionally geared to believe that draft picks have significant long term value because it was true at some point in the past. The new CBA has changed things but people's emotions have not caught up to reality. The generic Cowboys fan won't change their emotions until the media spoon feeds it to them on a daily basis.

 

[coult44]

I couldn't care LESS how anyone feels about the Giants drafting over the last several years. They have 2 Super Bowl wins in the past 6 years. That's all that matters. And that makes me sick!!!

 

[IrishAnto]

The flaw in your logic is that draft picks sign significantly smaller 2nd contracts than equally talented free agents.

Sean Lee's contract is only slightly smaller than Patick Willis' contract and Willis is not injury prone.

People are just emotionally geared to believe that draft picks have significant long term value because it was true at some point in the past. The new CBA has changed things but people's emotions have not caught up to reality. The generic Cowboys fan won't change their emotions until the media spoon feeds it to them on a daily basis.

The flaw in your logic is that you get what you pay for in Free Agency.

They way you build a successful team in the modern and any other era for that matter it through the draft where you build one draft on top of another.

So reverting to my original example, replacing Jenkins with Claiborne isn’t building through the draft, it’s replacing and so all you end up doing is treading water.

If we’d done a good job of drafting a CB in 2008 (Jenkins) there should have been no need to get Carr and Claiborne in 2012, at the expense of other equally (or more) pressing needs.

 

[xwalker]

The flaw in your logic is that you get what you pay for in Free Agency.

They way you build a successful team in the modern and any other era for that matter it through the draft where you build one draft on top of another.

So reverting to my original example, replacing Jenkins with Claiborne isn’t building through the draft, it’s replacing and so all you end up doing is treading water.

If we’d done a good job of drafting a CB in 2008 (Jenkins) there should have been no need to get Carr and Claiborne in 2012, at the expense of other equally (or more) pressing needs.

Jenkins cannot replace 2 players. Jenkins had no effect on the Claiborne pick. Jenkins had already been replaced by Carr. They were not going to pay both Jenkins and Carr. Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

[IrishAnto]

Jenkins cannot replace 2 players. Jenkins had no effect on the Claiborne pick. Jenkins had already been replaced by Carr. They were not going to pay both Jenkins and Carr. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Where did I say Jenkins would replace two players???

If Jenkins if kept and we sign Carr, do we then spend a 1st and 2nd round picks on Claiborne?

I doubt it!

Can you not read?

 

[Idgit]

The flaw in your logic is that draft picks sign significantly smaller 2nd contracts than equally talented free agents.

Sean Lee's contract is only slightly smaller than Patick Willis' contract and Willis is not injury prone.

People are just emotionally geared to believe that draft picks have significant long term value because it was true at some point in the past. The new CBA has changed things but people's emotions have not caught up to reality. The generic Cowboys fan won't change their emotions until the media spoon feeds it to them on a daily basis.

I'm on your side on this one, for the record. But I will point out that it's a lot less risky to invest big dollars on a guy you've already had in your system for four years, who already knows what's supposed to be done and who already has a working relationship with his teammates. It's not just the cap dollars you risk when you sign a veteran FA to a huge deal. The biggest VFA busts---see Asomugha, Nnamdi--tend to be when you're projecting a scheme change for a talented player and you project wrong. So missing on a high pick that you don't resign gives you more uncertainty at those three or four positions than you'd have had otherwise. And all you need is two or three bad second contracts to get yourself in a competitively disadvantageous position.

But the real meat of drafting, I definitely agree, is getting quality snaps for the first four years from not just your first and second rounders, but from your middle and late round draftees. Those 6 picks, over the 4 years of your rookie contracts, can be up to 24 starters or role players for you. Add that to the 12 1's and 2's and the handful of VFAs and vets you've extended already because of their quality play, and it's most of your roster.

Hitting on, say, two extra players per draft (role players here, not necessarily starters) means as many as 8 extra positions you don't have to fill at a premium in VFA or with college FAs off the streets like we've been doing the last three years. That can save you enough to add a veteran play maker or two, or improve your down roster depth enough to win a game or two on talent in the event of injury or whatnot over the course of a full season. It's a big deal.

 

[xwalker]

Where did I say Jenkins would replace two players???

If Jenkins if kept and we sign Carr, do we then spend a 1st and 2nd round picks on Claiborne?

I doubt it!

Can you not read?

If Jenkins had lived up to his draft status, then they could not sign both Jenkins and Carr. It's one or the other.

If you want to say that the Claiborne pick was bad, then I won't argue that point; however, it is unrelated to the failure of Mike Jenkins as a 2009 first round pick.

 

[xwalker]

I'm on your side on this one, for the record. But I will point out that it's a lot less risky to invest big dollars on a guy you've already had in your system for four years, who already knows what's supposed to be done and who already has a working relationship with his teammates. It's not just the cap dollars you risk when you sign a veteran FA to a huge deal. The biggest VFA busts---see Asomugha, Nnamdi--tend to be when you're projecting a scheme change for a talented player and you project wrong. So missing on a high pick that you don't resign gives you more uncertainty at those three or four positions than you'd have had otherwise. And all you need is two or three bad second contracts to get yourself in a competitively disadvantageous position.

Good post!

Yes, the value of hitting on picks from 2009 and earlier is not completely Zero; however, compared to the value of picks on their rookie contracts, the value of the 2009 and earlier picks is minimal.

They took a big risk signing Sean Lee to the new contract. In his case it's due to being injury prone.

They also took a huge risk signing Ware to a huge contract. He'll be 33 at the end of this contract. At a total value of 79M, that's a big risk that he will remain healthy and productive.

The exception would be if they had drafted a QB in the top 5 in 2009 or earlier. When those picks are successful, the equivalent type player never hits Free Agency.

I've said this before, but in my study of the draft and Free Agency, the 2 positions where quality players rarely if ever hit Free Agency is QB and Center. The Frederick pick was much more valuable than people realize.

But the real meat of drafting, I definitely agree, is getting quality snaps for the first four years from not just your first and second rounders, but from your middle and late round draftees. Those 6 picks, over the 4 years of your rookie contracts, can be up to 24 starters or role players for you. Add that to the 12 1's and 2's and the handful of VFAs and vets you've extended already because of their quality play, and it's most of your roster.

Hitting on, say, two extra players per draft (role players here, not necessarily starters) means as many as 8 extra positions you don't have to fill at a premium in VFA or with college FAs off the streets like we've been doing the last three years. That can save you enough to add a veteran play maker or two, or improve your down roster depth enough to win a game or two on talent in the event of injury or whatnot over the course of a full season. It's a big deal.

Yes, the value of getting a 1st year starter from the 3rd round like Wilcox and T.Williams is huge.

The failure of David Arkin in the 4th round of the 2011 draft has a bigger negative effect on the 2013 team than the failure of 1st round pick MIke Jenkins in 2009.

 

[IrishAnto]

If Jenkins had lived up to his draft status, then they could not sign both Jenkins and Carr. It's one or the other.

If you want to say that the Claiborne pick was bad, then I won't argue that point; however, it is unrelated to the failure of Mike Jenkins as a 2009 first round pick.

They didn't have to sign Jenkins at the same time they signed Carr.

His contract wasn't up until the end of 2012 and I'm sure they could have done both had they thought he was worth it.

However he wasn't and neither is Claiborne (considering what he cost in terms of draft picks) which considering the theme of this thread, is just one example rebutting the original posters point.

 

[xwalker]

They didn't have to sign Jenkins at the same time they signed Carr.

His contract wasn't up until the end of 2012 and I'm sure they could have done both had they thought he was worth it.

However he wasn't and neither is Claiborne (considering what he cost in terms of draft picks) which considering the theme of this thread, is just one example rebutting the original posters point.

If Jenkins had "been worth it", then they wouldn't have signed Carr. If Jenkins was good, they would have known that he would require a big contract. You can't have give out two 50M contracts to CBs even if they're a year apart.

Like I said before, you can legitimately complain about the Claiborne pick, but the bad picks from 2009 and earlier have minimal affect on the 2013 team.

 

[IrishAnto]

If Jenkins had "been worth it", then they wouldn't have signed Carr. If Jenkins was good, they would have known that he would require a big contract. You can't have give out two 50M contracts to CBs even if they're a year apart.

Like I said before, you can legitimately complain about the Claiborne pick, but the bad picks from 2009 and earlier have minimal affect on the 2013 team.

Sorry but that's just BS!

A good pick from 2008 - 9 would still be playing at a high level on this team and we might not have quite as many street free agents on the DL had we picked a good one.

Had we taken Merriman instead of Ware in 2005 don't you think that would still have an impact?

Had we taken Reed instead of Williams in 2002 don't you think things would have been different at the safety position these last 10 years?

 

[xwalker]

Sorry but that's just BS!

A good pick from 2008 - 9 would still be playing at a high level on this team and we might not have quite as many street free agents on the DL had we picked a good onehing.

Had we taken Merriman instead of Ware in 2005 don't you think that would still have an impact?

Had we taken Reed instead of Williams in 2002 don't you think things would have been different at the safety position these last 10 years?

Nothing changes the fact that Carr replaced Mike Jenkins which made the Claiborne pick independent of Jenkins failure.

I'm talking about the 2013 season and the future. Merriman over Ware would have minimal affect on the 2013 season. Ware is in decline and is getting paid 12M+ per season. Merriman wouldn't have received that contract . There's a good chance that some team signs Jared Allen as a free agent in 2014 for half of Ware's salary and gets more production from him than the Cowboys get from Ware.

Like I said before, the Cowboys were penalized in 2009 through 2012 for Jenkins not living up to his draft status. It would be similar with Ware. In 2013 the result of the Cowboys drafting Ware is a declining player with a 12+ million salary that will increase in future years.

Ed Reed's rookie contract was over long before the new CBA. Roy Williams was a very good player during his initial contract. The mistake was signing him to a new contract. It's the same mistake take could happen with a free agent. The fact that the Cowboys drafted him didn't prevent the mistake.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I posted the entire drafts from 1997 until 2013 so everyone could see the stellar drafts brought home by this team.

But the formatting is such that it makes it impossible to see much more than gibberish. Which incidentally is the exact description of those drafts for the most part.

So instead I will put a link here that will take you to the drafts. This is a great resource site.

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/cowboys

 

[IrishAnto]

Nothing changes the fact that Carr replaced Mike Jenkins which made the Claiborne pick independent of Jenkins failure.

I'm talking about the 2013 season and the future. Merriman over Ware would have minimal affect on the 2013 season. Ware is in decline and is getting paid 12M+ per season. Merriman wouldn't have received that contract . There's a good chance that some team signs Jared Allen as a free agent in 2014 for half of Ware's salary and gets more production from him than the Cowboys get from Ware.

Like I said before, the Cowboys were penalized in 2009 through 2012 for Jenkins not living up to his draft status. It would be similar with Ware. In 2013 the result of the Cowboys drafting Ware is a declining player with a 12+ million salary that will increase in future years.

Ed Reed's rookie contract was over long before the new CBA. Roy Williams was a very good player during his initial contract. The mistake was signing him to a new contract. It's the same mistake take could happen with a free agent. The fact that the Cowboys drafted him didn't prevent the mistake.

And again I’ll repeat we would have had no reason to spend $50 mill on Carr if Jenkins had been a good pick.

Even if we had still gone ahead and drafted Claiborne we could have used that money spent on Carr on the likes of Carl Nicks.

As for 2013 and the future past drafts have a big influence (even those before 2010).

Ware is in decline but he’s a lot better that what we had starting when he was injured.

You think if we’d drafted a good DL in 2008 or 2009 we wouldn’t be better off in 2013???