Before you say we draft poorly

[Ender]

He's saying that Carr's money would have gone to Jenkins as his second big contract would have demanded had he played at a higher level. The argument is that you have to use the first-contract windows for your draft picks exceptionally well, and then be judicious on who you extend on second or third contract deals. That makes perfect sense, overall. The Devil, as always, is in the Details as to which second and third contracts were worthwhile and which represent miscalculations and overpayments.

I get what hes saying, but the argument is flawed because he based it on an "if." Jenkins was not worth a first round pick, neither was Felix. They obviously werent good enough to resign here once theyre rookie contracts were up. Say the cowboys drafted brandon flowers and chris johnson in 08, we probably wouldnt be drafting claiborne and demarco 3 and 4 years later. Thats 5 high draft picks including 3 1st rounders on the same position 2 positions. That why that argument is flawed.you cant keep using high draft picks at positions to make up for the wasted draft pick a couple years prior.

 

[Ender]

We keep hyping up a lot of the players selected over the last 3-4 years, but how well have we really done?

Not going to comment on this year's draft. Still early.

2012:

Claiborne - We traded up to #6 for this guy? Can't stay healthy, can't play.
Crawford - Who knows?
The rest of the draft was terrible. Matt Johnson FTW

2011:

Smith - I really liked this pick, but the kid hasn't played up to his draft status. Not a lockdown LT. Just OK
Carter- Can't stay healthy and has regressed a ton this year. Looks like his work ethic is gone.
Murray - Can't stay healthy.
Harris - Good contributor.

2010:

Bryant - Can't put a complete game together. People saying he is # 2 behind Calvin are smoking something. He still has a lot of work.
Lee - Can't finish a season.
The rest of the draft was terrible.

2009: LOL

Smith has played great for this team this year, and Bryant cant catch whats not thrown. Everything else i agree with though sadly.

 

[Idgit]

I get what hes saying, but the argument is flawed because he based it on an "if." Jenkins was not worth a first round pick, neither was Felix. They obviously werent good enough to resign here once theyre rookie contracts were up. Say the cowboys drafted brandon flowers and chris johnson in 08, we probably wouldnt be drafting claiborne and demarco 3 and 4 years later. Thats 5 high draft picks including 3 1st rounders on the same position 2 positions. That why that argument is flawed.you cant keep using high draft picks at positions to make up for the wasted draft pick a couple years prior.

Once players are out of their original contracts, it doesn't really matter much. The big benefit you get in resigning one of your own is that you know more about how that player fits in your scheme than you do about a VFA where you have to project. But you're not getting a cap-break on those second deals, anyway.

What's important is being able to find talent wherever you can. And then being good at extending or signing as VFAs only players who are still going to be able to help you more than another option would during the entire length of that second (or third) deal. If you invest unwisely on those players, you kill your ability to operate and end up having to find replacement players in CFA or off the veteran scrap heap. You can't do that too much, for obvious reasons.

We've done a better job under Garrett of finding talent and using our picks. We have yet to demonstrate that we're any smarter about extensions, though not extending Hatcher and Spencer and the extension we worked out for Sean Lee and Romo look like hopeful signs to me.

 

[XxTDxX]

Even the three you pointed out, have had their blemishes:

• Lee: Uber-talented yet injured to some extent every season of his Cowboys career

• Smith: His play has been very good but never great. As an example this year he is currently ranked by PFF as the 6th (out of 16) best LT in the NFC. Again -- pretty good, but not Pro-Bowl caliber.

• Bryant: Had has trials and tribulations over the 1st three years of his career including the Cowboys having to hire professional babysitters, the Dez rules, etc. Currently ranked as the 7th best WR in the NFC by PFF. Again, very good, but maybe not Pro-bowl caliber based on his production this season.

Most every player in this league has flaws.. You make valid points but I could make an argument against all the players from the other teams I listed that are elite

Pierre Paul: Disappears for seasons at a time.. Had 16.5 sacks in a single season but only has 11 in his other 42 games combined.

RG3: Terrible attitude in my opinion towards the coaching staff and acts like a spoiled brat most of the time.. Also having a terrible year thus far and since the read option has been figured out by most of the NFL will have a hard time adjusting into what he will need to be to remain "Elite"

Alfred Morris: Having another strong year but many believe he is the product of the threat of RG3 running

Ryan Kerrigan: Has never had more than 8.5 sacks.. averages about 6 sacks and 40 tackles a season.. were we calling Anthony Spencer "Elite" when he was having 6 sacks and 50 + tackles?



The point is you could find flaws in most of the leagues better players and thats why they aren't the best. I don't think there is a player in the NFC East who is clearly the best at his position in the league and it is because of some of the faults listed above.. I think there is a very real possibility that Sean Lee could be the leagues best inside linebacker if he ever manages to be healthy but until then he will sit around the top 5.. I think there is a very real possibility that Dez could really compete for the top spot at WR but not until he has the football knowledge necessary and a coaching staff that looks to feature him regardless of coverages

 

[XxTDxX]

Also for those asking about Escobar I didn't label him or any of the 2013 draftees from any of the teams as "Busts" because it's too early to tell.. If at the end of the 2014 season Escobar has 11 Catches for 94 yards and 1 TD he will have that label but we shall see.. Honestly my hope is that even if Escobar turns out to be a mistake the later picks like Williams, Webb, Randle, Wilcox, and Holloman who all seem to have spots on this team going forward will still make this years draft a success.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

I've brought this up in the past and people wrote it off as "Well...I don't care what other teams are doing....". Which I get that stance but you can't determine how bad or good we're doing if you don't take into account what everyone else is doing.

 

[XxTDxX]

We keep hyping up a lot of the players selected over the last 3-4 years, but how well have we really done?

Not going to comment on this year's draft. Still early.

2012:

Claiborne - We traded up to #6 for this guy? Can't stay healthy, can't play.
Crawford - Who knows?
The rest of the draft was terrible. Matt Johnson FTW

2011:

Smith - I really liked this pick, but the kid hasn't played up to his draft status. Not a lockdown LT. Just OK
Carter- Can't stay healthy and has regressed a ton this year. Looks like his work ethic is gone.
Murray - Can't stay healthy.
Harris - Good contributor.

2010:

Bryant - Can't put a complete game together. People saying he is # 2 behind Calvin are smoking something. He still has a lot of work.
Lee - Can't finish a season.
The rest of the draft was terrible.

2009: LOL

Look around the league.. Finding 3 or 4guys who are contributors on your team in any given draft is not "The Draft Was Terrible"

in the 2010 draft we found 2 pro bowl caliber players so while it would have been nice to follow up with some depth in the later rounds I still think that 2010 draft was a success seeing as our 2 best players are from that class.

People around here pay so close attention to the Cowboys that they seem to have lost the pulse of the league as a whole.. Teams are not walking out of the draft and 4 years down the line saying "thank god we drafted all 7 of those guys" it is EXTREMELY RARE to look back at any teams draft class and find more than 4 guys who are making an impact on that team or even in the league


Take a look at the Eagles 2011 draft
Round 1 - Danny Watkins
Round 2 - Jaiquawn Jarrett
Round 3 - Curtis Marsh
Round 4 - Casey Matthews
Round 4 - Alex Henery
Round 5 - Dion Lewis
Round 5 - Julian Vandervelde
Round 6 - Jason Kelce
Round 6 - Brian Rolle
Round 7 - Greg Lloyd
Round 7 - Stanley Havili

now THAT is a failed draft.. 11 picks and not a single good player other than the kicker you took in the 4th round.

Feel free to look through the league and see for yourself.. teams who you would think are having 7 gems per draft like the Patriots, 49ers, and Broncos have had a lot of bad picks too.. The fact is there arent enough quality players coming out of college in any given year to have a draft filled with guys who are going to stick around the league and who really belong on an NFL roster for more than a few years.

 

[CyberB0b]

Look around the league.. Finding 3 or 4guys who are contributors on your team in any given draft is not "The Draft Was Terrible"

in the 2010 draft we found 2 pro bowl caliber players so while it would have been nice to follow up with some depth in the later rounds I still think that 2010 draft was a success seeing as our 2 best players are from that class.

People around here pay so close attention to the Cowboys that they seem to have lost the pulse of the league as a whole.. Teams are not walking out of the draft and 4 years down the line saying "thank god we drafted all 7 of those guys" it is EXTREMELY RARE to look back at any teams draft class and find more than 4 guys who are making an impact on that team or even in the league


Take a look at the Eagles 2011 draft
Round 1 - Danny Watkins
Round 2 - Jaiquawn Jarrett
Round 3 - Curtis Marsh
Round 4 - Casey Matthews
Round 4 - Alex Henery
Round 5 - Dion Lewis
Round 5 - Julian Vandervelde
Round 6 - Jason Kelce
Round 6 - Brian Rolle
Round 7 - Greg Lloyd
Round 7 - Stanley Havili

now THAT is a failed draft.. 11 picks and not a single good player other than the kicker you took in the 4th round.

Feel free to look through the league and see for yourself.. teams who you would think are having 7 gems per draft like the Patriots, 49ers, and Broncos have had a lot of bad picks too.. The fact is there arent enough quality players coming out of college in any given year to have a draft filled with guys who are going to stick around the league and who really belong on an NFL roster for more than a few years.

How many Pro Bowls have those 2 Pro Bowl caliber players gone to?

 

[perrykemp]

How many Pro Bowls have those 2 Pro Bowl caliber players gone to?

None. Best I can tell they have "potential" to be pro-bowlers which hasn't happened to date for various reasons.

 

[Common Sense]

Look around the league.. Finding 3 or 4guys who are contributors on your team in any given draft is not "The Draft Was Terrible"

in the 2010 draft we found 2 pro bowl caliber players so while it would have been nice to follow up with some depth in the later rounds I still think that 2010 draft was a success seeing as our 2 best players are from that class.

People around here pay so close attention to the Cowboys that they seem to have lost the pulse of the league as a whole.. Teams are not walking out of the draft and 4 years down the line saying "thank god we drafted all 7 of those guys" it is EXTREMELY RARE to look back at any teams draft class and find more than 4 guys who are making an impact on that team or even in the league


Take a look at the Eagles 2011 draft
Round 1 - Danny Watkins
Round 2 - Jaiquawn Jarrett
Round 3 - Curtis Marsh
Round 4 - Casey Matthews
Round 4 - Alex Henery
Round 5 - Dion Lewis
Round 5 - Julian Vandervelde
Round 6 - Jason Kelce
Round 6 - Brian Rolle
Round 7 - Greg Lloyd
Round 7 - Stanley Havili

now THAT is a failed draft.. 11 picks and not a single good player other than the kicker you took in the 4th round.

Feel free to look through the league and see for yourself.. teams who you would think are having 7 gems per draft like the Patriots, 49ers, and Broncos have had a lot of bad picks too.. The fact is there arent enough quality players coming out of college in any given year to have a draft filled with guys who are going to stick around the league and who really belong on an NFL roster for more than a few years.

Jeez. Our best point of comparison is a team that won four games last year.

 

[CyberB0b]

None. Best I can tell they have "potential" to be pro-bowlers which hasn't happened to date for various reasons.

It better happen fast. We just signed one of them long term (the guy who hasn't finished a season since his junior year of college) and a huge contract brewing on the horizon.

 

[Ender]

Once players are out of their original contracts, it doesn't really matter much. The big benefit you get in resigning one of your own is that you know more about how that player fits in your scheme than you do about a VFA where you have to project. But you're not getting a cap-break on those second deals, anyway.

What's important is being able to find talent wherever you can. And then being good at extending or signing as VFAs only players who are still going to be able to help you more than another option would during the entire length of that second (or third) deal. If you invest unwisely on those players, you kill your ability to operate and end up having to find replacement players in CFA or off the veteran scrap heap. You can't do that too much, for obvious reasons.

We've done a better job under Garrett of finding talent and using our picks. We have yet to demonstrate that we're any smarter about extensions, though not extending Hatcher and Spencer and the extension we worked out for Sean Lee and Romo look like hopeful signs to me.

Ok, so your basically saying that after the original rookie contracts, drafts dont matter? Yea, there is no way i agree with that.

There are certain outliers and variables that makes that argument very short sighted. First, like i already mentioned, redrafting the same player is a complete waste of draft picks. Especially in the NFL. There are too many positions to fill. We've used several high draft pick on corner back and tight ends and running backs and the net result has been a historically bad pass defense and running game that hasnt produced in ages and three 2nd round tight ends with all three looking like wasted picks.

Even in your argument, drafting young talent is a premium because its comparatively cheap. So you should understand the damages that occur when a team has to spend numerous high picks year after year to address the same issues.

 

[xwalker]

What? How is jenkins not panning out irrelevant. If he were a good pick that played well enough earn a contract as lucrative as Carr then we probably wouldn't draft Caliborne, a pick that cost a first and a second. That alone makes it extremely relevant. When you've drafted poorly for a decade drafting well for 3 drafts is merely making up for the mistakes of previous draft. We basically have to keep addressing the same positions of past bust. If you draft well you dont have to use big money on free agents to address draft blunders. Your argument makes zero sense.

You're letting emotion override logic. They wanted both Carr and Claiborne. They signed Carr instead of Jenkins. Carr was signed before Claiborne was drafted.

If Jenkins had been a good pick, he would have received the Carr contract. There would be no advantage in 2013 to having Jenkins over Carr.

The penalty for MIke Jenkins failing to live up to his draft status was incurred during the seasons he was under contract here. His failed draft status has no affect on the 2013 Cowboys season.

 

[Ender]

You're letting emotion override logic. They wanted both Carr and Claiborne. They signed Carr instead of Jenkins. Carr was signed before Claiborne was drafted.

If Jenkins had been a good pick, he would have received the Carr contract. There would be no advantage in 2013 to having Jenkins over Carr.

The penalty for MIke Jenkins failing to live up to his draft status was incurred during the seasons he was under contract here. His failed draft status has no affect on the 2013 Cowboys season.

No, thats not true bro. Your talking about this issue as if it where black and white, and its not. Maybe Jenkins turned out to be a good pro and received half of Carr's deal, maybe instead of 55 mil on Carr we get jenkins for 30 mil and good help on the O-line with the 20 mil. There are far to many variables to say, "Jenkins would definitely receive Carrs deal, therefore Jenkins + Claiborne = Carr + Claiborne." It sounds good, but its far from being that easy.

 

[xwalker]

No, thats not true bro. Your talking about this issue as if it where black and white, and its not. Maybe Jenkins turned out to be a good pro and received half of Carr's deal, maybe instead of 55 mil on Carr we get jenkins for 30 mil and good help on the O-line with the 20 mil. There are far to many variables to say, "Jenkins would definitely receive Carrs deal, therefore Jenkins + Claiborne = Carr + Claiborne." It sounds good, but its far from being that easy.

If Jenkins, a player that made references to wanting big money, didn't receive a similar contract to Carr, the he really didn't live up to his 1st round draft status.

Your logic is that the Cowboys would have benefitted from Mike Jenkins being better than he was not as good as Carr. Jenkins was a free agent the same year as Carr. If jenkins only received a 30M contract while Carr received 50M then Jenkins was not as good as Carr.

Players are not going to sign contracts for significantly below market value just to stay with the team that drafted them. They reported that Sean Lee gave the Cowboys a big discount but in reality his contract was only slightly smaller than the contract of Willis in SF. The Cowboys actually took a big risk signing an injury prone player.

 

[EvilJerry88]

I really don't think you know what you're talking about when it comes to the other teams in the division.

Just a cursory glance into those other teams players and their situations says otherwise.
Giants: Prince Amukamara is well above average right now.
Eagles: Brandon Graham was excellent last year in limited snaps. Nate Allen has removed the bust tag this year. Fletcher Cox and Brandon Boykin are well above average right now. Nick Foles is even we'll above average too. Best passer rating in the league.

No all "well above average" or "starter" caliber players can be equal or important as others. We have Dez and Smith on offense but that hasn't been too great. Lee is great but on one of the worst defenses in the league. We also have awful depth at different positions O-line D- line LB. We drafted Kyle Wilber in the third had him at OLB last year then DE in the 4-3 and now he's practicing at LB IN THE 4-3.

GiantsAnd "starter" doesn't mean "good" (see Morris Claiborne - who we used our first two picks on to move up and Bruce Carter who had a good couple starts last year and has been abysmal).

You're just trying to push your "cowboys are the best" agenda. You say we have he best young talent and best talent, but at 5-5 under a 3rd year coach, apparently that isn't much. And people who know more about the other teams in the division would disagree.

I guess you can compare and contrast all you want to try to get excited but this "talent" hasn't turned is into a winning team from 2010-2013 has it?

 

[Ender]

If Jenkins, a player that made references to wanting big money, didn't receive a similar contract to Carr, the he really didn't live up to his 1st round draft status.

Your logic is that the Cowboys would have benefitted from Mike Jenkins being better than he was not as good as Carr. Jenkins was a free agent the same year as Carr. If jenkins only received a 30M contract while Carr received 50M then Jenkins was not as good as Carr.

Players are not going to sign contracts for significantly below market value just to stay with the team that drafted them. They reported that Sean Lee gave the Cowboys a big discount but in reality his contract was only slightly smaller than the contract of Willis in SF. The Cowboys actually took a big risk signing an injury prone player.

Yes, Jenkins isn't as good as Carr, we know that. But your missing the point. I can tell by your logic why you actually believe wasting a 1st on Jenkins doesnt hurt the team. You really see this as a black and white issue and its not. Jenkins and Felix sucking in 08 means the team have use more draft picks to replace those players sucking . Its like a revolving door of wasted draft picks. Now if calborne continue to suck and Murray continues to get hurt, that will be 5 picks (three 1st round a second and third) in a 5 year span that resulted in 0 quality players. How you don't see that as detrimental to a team is beyond me.

 

[Dodger12]

Lee and Bryant will both be pro bowlers this year.

No, they won't. Lee's out and while he was solid, he wasn't playing a Pro-Bowl level. Bryant is the 18th ranked WR in the NFL averaging 75 yards per game. Those aren't Pro-Bowl numbers.

 

[xwalker]

Yes, Jenkins isn't as good as Carr, we know that. But your missing the point. I can tell by your logic why you actually believe wasting a 1st on Jenkins doesnt hurt the team. You really see this as a black and white issue and its not. Jenkins and Felix sucking in 08 means the team have use more draft picks to replace those players sucking . Its like a revolving door of wasted draft picks. Now if calborne continue to suck and Murray continues to get hurt, that will be 5 picks (three 1st round a second and third) in a 5 year span that resulted in 0 quality players. How you don't see that as detrimental to a team is beyond me.

The Jenkins and Felix picks did hurt the team, but only for 4 years, the length of their rookie contracts. After 4 years they are free agents at which point they have no more value to you than the free agents from other teams.

It would be different if it was a QB drafted in the top 5 because that type of player will not be available in free agency.

Again, Carr replaced Mike Jenkins. Zero picks were used to replace Jenkins.

 

[perrykemp]

No, they won't. Lee's out and while he was solid, he wasn't playing a Pro-Bowl level. Bryant is the 18th ranked WR in the NFL averaging 75 yards per game. Those aren't Pro-Bowl numbers.

I think Lee will make it. He was the worst LB in the NFL the first 4-5 games of the season against the pass but he has turned it around. His run stopping has been consistently top notch. I believe he becomes the first Cowboy drafted in the last half-decade to be selected to the Probowl (not as an injury replacement, etc).

Dez -- its 50/50. He is the 6th rated WR in the NFC and not even top 15 in the NFL for yards per game so the case for Dez making isn't nearly as strong.