Behold Zimmer's pressure defense!

[Bob Sacamano]

I would say if we have are lacking in quality pass rushers then we've been sold another bill of goods about all the talent on our D.


I may be mindless but I would say it's a lack of teaching skills, evaluating talent, poor coaching, or all of the above.

I say it's a lack of experience

 

[Bob Sacamano]

He faked the handoff, dropped, got set and threw. Watch the play. From the point of the fake to the point of the throw wasn't a long time. He wasn't back there all day looking for a receiver.



That's not true. Ware got pressure four times against Chris Samuels, once against a guard-running back double-team, once against a fullback and once when unblocked, in addition to the two plays against the tight end. There were only three times when an offensive tackle sucessfully blocked Ware's pass-rush for any length of time.



Ware is hampered more by dropping into coverage than by playing the run. And 4-3 defensive ends don't drop into coverage except on an occasional gimmick defense. Ware drops into coverage probably 20 percent of the time, possibly more. (It was 35 percent against Washington.)

And Peppers isn't pressuring quarterbacks any better than Ware has -- when he has been rushing. According to the NFL GameBooks, Ware has four sacks plus eight quarterback hurries this season, for a total of 12, while Peppers has eight sacks and six hurries, a total of 14. (Note that not every time a player gets to the quarterback or hits the quarterback qualifies as a hurry.) Our opponents have run 264 pass plays; the Panthers' opponents have run 287. On how many of those did Peppers NOT rush the passer? Maybe 20 at the most? If so, then he has gotten pressure once every 19.1 rushes. Even if Ware rushed on all but 40 pass plays -- a very conservative estimate, I'm sure -- he would have one pressure every 18.7 rushes. In other words, WHEN Ware rushes, he gets pressure more frequently than Peppers. You can do the same with almost any other pass-rusher -- Ware's success rate when rushing the passer is very comparable, if not better. Ware IS NOT the problem with our pass rush.

I can't enough to do this post justice

 

[Cbz40]

I say it's a lack of experience

Most of them have played in 20-24 games.....what is the criteria for experience?

Therefore Its the scheme or our coaches can't teach worth a darn. Maybe Stautner is right, the players we brought simply caN'T or not talented enough to muster a pass rush. If that's the case then we did a lousy job in the draft.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Most of them have played in 20-24 games.....what is the criteria for experience?

a couple of years, maybe more, since it's a known fact that transitioning to the 34 D, having everyone comfortable w/ it, and effective at rushing the passer, takes time

everyone was blinded by our success last year fielding a top 10 D in the 1st year in the 3-4, and all the talent that we possess on that side of the ball, that they forgot that very, few teams do a great job of transitioning to the 34 in the 1st couple of years, hell, Atlanta scrapped the scheme after 1 year, a few years back

2 years is too early to make a judgement on the talent of our draft picks, esp. w/ only 1 of our draft picks having previous, full-time 34 D experience, compounding that factor, but our young draft picks indeed look talented, albeit in spurts w/ the exception of Ware, it's just about putting it all together, notice how New England in their championship run had alot of experience at LB? while we only have 1 experienced vet, Ferg...in the entire front 7, they also had one of the best Dlineman in the game in Seymour, while it's obvious Spears and Canty are not in that level in defeating their individual opponents...yet, what I just said is also a reason BP restricts his players on D, and what has y'all complaining, is because they aren't doing a good enough job of executing the base scheme

but take heart in the fact that we do a very good job of stopping the run this early, which is what the 34 D is designed to do because of the big bodies

 

[Cbz40]

a couple of years, maybe more, since it's a known fact that transitioning to the 34 D, having everyone comfortable w/ it, and effective at rushing the passer, takes time

everyone was blinded by our success last year fielding a top 10 D in the 1st year in the 3-4, and all the talent that we possess on that side of the ball, that they forgot that very, few teams do a great job of transitioning to the 34 in the 1st couple of years, hell, Atlanta scrapped the scheme after 1 year, a few years back

2 years is too early to make a judgement on the talent of our draft picks, esp. w/ only 1 of our draft picks having previous, full-time 34 D experience, compounding that factor, but our young draft picks indeed look talented, albeit in spurts w/ the exception of Ware, it's just about putting it all together, notice how New England in their championship run had alot of experience at LB? while we only have 1 experienced vet, Ferg...in the entire front 7, they also had one of the best Dlineman in the game in Seymour, while it's obvious Spears and Canty are not in that level in defeating their individual opponents...yet, what I just said is also a reason BP restricts his players on D, and what has y'all complaining, is because they aren't doing a good enough job of executing the base scheme

but take heart in the fact that we do a very good job of stopping the run this early, which is what the 34 D is designed to do because of the big bodies

I would bet the farm if what you say is true ..... If Parcells had any idea it would take 1 1/2 seasons, and who knows how many games next year, before the D responds to the schemes full potential he's darn sorry he put it in.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I would bet the farm if what you say is true ..... If Parcells had any idea it would take 3 seasons of football before the D responded to the schemes full potential he's darn sorry he put it in.

Parcells already knew coming in how hard the 3-4 is, he continually mentioned last year how complex the scheme is, esp. on the OLBs

and is or isn't it a fact that you can't judge rookies until 3 years? give me the farm, cuz I'm sure as hell that Parcells knew it would take awhile till the 34 clicked

 

[Cbz40]

Parcells already knew coming in how hard the 3-4 is, he continually mentioned last year how complex the scheme is, esp. on the OLBs

and is or isn't it a fact that you can't judge rookies until 3 years? give me the farm, cuz I'm sure as hell that Parcells knew it would take awhile till the 34 clicked

Strange ...... we adopt a win now strategy and go with a defensive scheme that takes 2-3 years to gel.:bang2:



I'm sure glad I'm a very patient man. The way this front office keeps paddling up stream this could take awhile.
:laugh2:

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Strange ...... we adopt a win now strategy and go with a defensive scheme that takes 2-3 years to gel.:bang2:

\
we also did it looking towards the future

and it's good to have patience, you're gonna need it

 

[Stautner]

He faked the handoff, dropped, got set and threw. Watch the play. From the point of the fake to the point of the throw wasn't a long time. He wasn't back there all day looking for a receiver.



That's not true. Ware got pressure four times against Chris Samuels, once against a guard-running back double-team, once against a fullback and once when unblocked, in addition to the two plays against the tight end. There were only three times when an offensive tackle sucessfully blocked Ware's pass-rush for any length of time.



Ware is hampered more by dropping into coverage than by playing the run. And 4-3 defensive ends don't drop into coverage except on an occasional gimmick defense. Ware drops into coverage probably 20 percent of the time, possibly more. (It was 35 percent against Washington.)

And Peppers isn't pressuring quarterbacks any better than Ware has -- when he has been rushing. According to the NFL GameBooks, Ware has four sacks plus eight quarterback hurries this season, for a total of 12, while Peppers has eight sacks and six hurries, a total of 14. (Note that not every time a player gets to the quarterback or hits the quarterback qualifies as a hurry.) Our opponents have run 264 pass plays; the Panthers' opponents have run 287. On how many of those did Peppers NOT rush the passer? Maybe 20 at the most? If so, then he has gotten pressure once every 19.1 rushes. Even if Ware rushed on all but 40 pass plays -- a very conservative estimate, I'm sure -- he would have one pressure every 18.7 rushes. In other words, WHEN Ware rushes, he gets pressure more frequently than Peppers. You can do the same with almost any other pass-rusher -- Ware's success rate when rushing the passer is very comparable, if not better. Ware IS NOT the problem with our pass rush.

Ware was only blocked successfully three times yet he only got to the QB once ......hmmmmmm

AS for Peppers, he isn't having one of his best years this season, but look at the history. Besides, my comments weren't meant to be limited to Ware, the indisputable fact is that we aren't the only team who's pass rushers have to play the run as well as rush the passer - no matter how much you want to make it seem that way - and other teams and players still get pressure.

 

[Stautner]

That's not exactly true either.....BP himself said he thought Ware could be the next LT.

This an example of exactly what I was talking about. Parcells DID NOT say Ware could be the next LT, he said Ware reminded him of LT. That's a huge difference, but exactly the kind of thing I was saying about fans perceiving too much and being overeager to jump on a bandwagon. There actually were fans who EXPECTED Ware to be another LT even before he played his first regular season down.

 

[Stautner]

Most of them have played in 20-24 games.....what is the criteria for experience?

Therefore Its the scheme or our coaches can't teach worth a darn. Maybe Stautner is right, the players we brought simply caN'T or not talented enough to muster a pass rush. If that's the case then we did a lousy job in the draft.

I don't think our drafts were busts, but I don't think they brought in top quality pass rushing personnel either.

I think Spears and Canty are solid 3-4 DE's, but there was no reason to expect them to be pass rush demons in the NFL - especially when that isn't a significant function of 3-4 DE's. That's not to say they aren't something of a disappointment in that regard. I would have hoped for around 4-5 sacks apeice from them, but that isn't looking realistic at this point.

But the truth is that Ware was really the only true pass rusher we have drafted out of the bunch, and he is well short of what we hoped we were getting.

Actually, Hatcher was also drafted as a pass rusher, but with him being a rookie and from a smaller college it's too early to form an opinion on him.

 

[AdamJT13]

Ware was only blocked successfully three times yet he only got to the QB once ......hmmmmmm

Correct. On most of the other times, he either hit Brunell as he threw (forcing incomplete passes), got in Brunell's face as he threw, flushed Brunell out of the pocket or was getting close when Brunell threw. Just because you beat your man, that doesn't mean you're going to get a sack. The quarterback can still throw the ball before you get there.

AS for Peppers, he isn't having one of his best years this season, but look at the history.

Say what? Peppers is on pace to surpass his career highs for sacks, tackles, forced fumbles and passes defended.

Besides, my comments weren't meant to be limited to Ware, the indisputable fact is that we aren't the only team who's pass rushers have to play the run as well as rush the passer - no matter how much you want to make it seem that way - and other teams and players still get pressure.

Here's another indisputable fact -- we're better than 16 other teams at rushing the passer. And we're better than 27 other teams at stopping the run. When you combine the two rankings, we're 10th-best in the league. So 22 other teams have a more difficult time balancing stopping the run and rushing the passer.