Best Ever Thread

[jobberone]

QB is hard for me because I'm a huge Staubach fan and have trouble seeing past that.

I liked the old field general types who called their own plays and were basically a coach on the field. With that in mind, Johnny Unitas would be right up there. Elway had all the tools and carried a franchise for years. Montana had the perfect mentality/demeanor for the job. I don't know enough about Otto Graham to say.

Quick story I heard about Unitas: He got hit in the mouth after one play and was bleeding profusely. As he was sticking some mud where -- a tooth, I presume -- used to be, the referee stuck his head in the huddle and said, "John, are you alright," and Unitas shot back, "Get the hell out of my huddle." :laugh2:

Unitas was one tough SOB. How he took all that abuse with his little frame amazes me still.

Otto Graham could easily be argued as the greatest ever. I think he was great but I also think he was the perfect system QB for Paul Brown. IMO, Paul Brown invented modern football and was the reason for the Brown's great success over those years. He also was a great talent evaluator. If Paul Brown weren't so hard to get along with he'd probably be the runaway choice for best coach ever.

 

[jobberone]

That might be but when it WAS legal he was the best!


I don't disagree at all, in fact I believe Henderson could have been LT before LT came into the league. He had a unique combination of size and speed that wasn't matched until Taylor came in. My problem with him is that he didn't play long enough to be considered the best ever.


Hutson put up some absolutely incredible numbers for when he was playing. My problem with him is that his best years came during WWII when a lot of players were in the service. They seem a bit inflated to me. I still rank him among the top-5 WRs of all time but I can't give him the top spot.


Not only did he never have a losing season, he took his team to the championship game EVERY YEAR HE PLAYED! (They won 7 out of 10)

He even won a championship in pro basketball (the NBL was the forerunner of the NBA) before he joined the Browns!

In 11 seasons as a professional athlete, Graham's teams made the championship all eleven years, winning eight titles.

Not only that, but after he retired from the NFL he coached the College All-Stars to a win over the NFL champion Detroit Lions! That was back when the NFL champ would play the College All-Star team.

He then went on to coach the Coast Guard Academy football team and they went undefeated in 1963.

His only failure was as the Commanders HC in the late 60s but in a way that was still a win for us! :laugh2:

I thought you're were talking about Otto the center in your previous post. :laugh2:

But you're right. Graham was a great QB. He was a bigger jerk than his coach was. I still think he benefited from being in Paul Brown's system more than he created his own success. He was perfect for Brown's offense and still a great QB no matter who he played for though.

 

[sonnyboy]

Some of the comments about Deion being the best CB ever got me to thinking. What's your best Offense and Defense ever player by player.


Offense

QB...John Elway. I just think he is the mold for the QB you want.
RB...Walter Payton. This is the hardest one for me. Jim Brown?
FB...Larry Csonka. Would fight you.
TE...Tony Gonzalez. Re-defined TE role.
WR...Jerry Rice. The best football player I have ever seen.
WR...Fred Biletnikoff. Greatest hands ever.
LT...Anthony Munoz. I believe he is in the top 3 players ever.
LG...John Hannah. His wars with Randy White are the best football I have ever seen.
C...Chuck Bednarik. Concrete Charlie may be the toughest SOB to ever play. I respect that.
RG...Larry Allen. The most powerful player ever.
RT...Dan Dierdorf. One of the most underrated guys ever because he was a Cardinal.


Defense

LDE...Reggie White. The Minister of Defense was a terror.
DT...Randy White. Half man. Half monster. All around awesome.
DT...Bob Lilly. He was simply unstoppable without a double or triple team.
RDE...Deacon Jones. The center piece fo the Fearsome Foursome and the guy peopel really did fear.
OLB...Jack Lambert. If you needed a big stop, this guy made it.
MLB...Dick Butkus. He defined nasty and he could destroy an Offense.
OLB...Lawrence Taylor. Only Jerry Rice was a better football player IMO.
CB...Darrell Green. I always admired the way he played.
SS...Ronnie Lott. Oh my gosh what a game changer.
FS...Emlen Tunnell. A fearless leader who played with passion and anger.
CB...Deion Sanders. The only true "Shut Down Corner" I have ever seen.

Love the team. I know I'll get blasted for this, but if you're attempting to field the all-time best team, you just can't use many if any players pre 1980.

It was just a different game and the players were not in the same class athletically.

Many of these HOF's just couldn't compete in todays game. At least not at an elite level.

Butkus, Lambert, Lilly, Jones, R. White, Bednarik, Biletnikoff, Diedorf, Csonka

These wonderful players who deserve their HOF busts, couldn't compete today.

Here's my team. Not sure a team could be constructed to beat it.

Offense

QB...Joe Montana.......He's the only choice, there is no 1a. Brady's getting close and I believe Romo can get their. He does more of what made Montana special than anyone else playing today.
RB...Emmitt Smith
FB...Darryl Johnston
TE...Jason Witten......This selection won't stand out so much in 5 years. He belongs.
WR...Jerry Rice
WR...Randy Moss
LT...Anthony Munoz
LG...John Hannah
C... Damien Woody
RG...Larry Allen
RT...Eric Williams


Defense

LDE... Bruce Smith
NT... Reggie White..........Played a lot of NT in Ryan's 46. It's where he was most dominate.
RDE... Richard Seymour
OLB... Demarcus Ware.....This also won't stand out so much in 5 years.
MLB... Mike Singletary
MLB... Ray Lewis
OLB...Lawrence Taylor
CB...Darrell Green
SS...Ronnie Lott
FS...Ed Reed
CB...Deion Sanders

 

[Zaxor]

I thought you're were talking about Otto the center in your previous post. :laugh2:

But you're right. Graham was a great QB. He was a bigger jerk than his coach was. I still think he benefited from being in Paul Brown's system more than he created his own success. He was perfect for Brown's offense and still a great QB no matter who he played for though.

This is what makes this so very hard to do with any great deal of accuracy...

Lets take Rice for instance... Would Rice be the best ever if Moss had Montana and Young throwing to him...he looked pretty predestrian without a HOFer throwing at him but than again he was aged....so it is subjective.

Did Otto do more for Paul Brown or did Paul Brown do more for Otto...hard to say... same with Landry/Staubach... Walsh/Montana... it was the right match at the right time...

I had a hard time leaving Gayle Sayers off the list even though he only played for such a short time and was never the same after the knee operation... Same with Bo Jackson...these guys truly might have been the best ever had things just broke a little different...

 

[burmafrd]

Gale sayers was absolutely the best open field runner I ever saw. Got a chance some years ago to see some Chicago game films of his time before the knee injury. Not just the stuff on NFL films or other sites. Actual game films showing his every play for 8 games. Including the SF game that he scored 6 tds in. Its like everyone else was in slo mo and he was running normal.

 

[THUMPER]

Gale sayers was absolutely the best open field runner I ever saw. Got a chance some years ago to see some Chicago game films of his time before the knee injury. Not just the stuff on NFL films or other sites. Actual game films showing his every play for 8 games. Including the SF game that he scored 6 tds in. Its like everyone else was in slo mo and he was running normal.

I agree. I have Sayers on my "Ultimate Team" but couldn't list him as the best ever because of his lack of longevity/durability.

 

[jackrussell]

Love the team. I know I'll get blasted for this, but if you're attempting to field the all-time best team, you just can't use many if any players pre 1980.

It was just a different game and the players were not in the same class athletically.

Many of these HOF's just couldn't compete in todays game. At least not at an elite level.

Butkus, Lambert, Lilly, Jones, R. White, Bednarik, Biletnikoff, Diedorf, Csonka

These wonderful players who deserve their HOF busts, couldn't compete today.

Has absolutley nothing to do with competing in today's game. It's about the degree in which they dominated the people they played with.

 

[THUMPER]

Has absolutley nothing to do with competing in today's game. It's about the degree in which they dominated the people they played with.

You beat me to it Jack.

If the players from "back in the day" could not compete now, then it works the other way around too. Take away all of the modern medical techniques, diet and training that are available today and these guys wouldn't be as big or as fast nor would they come back from injuries like they do now. Throw in all the rule changes and they would have a tough time competing in the earlier era.

How big and fast do you think DeMarcus Ware would be if he NEVER got to train in a weightroom or with a strength and conditioning coach in his life? What if he worked as a car salesman in the offseason instead of spending it in the weightroom working with a trainer? Well, most guys prior to the mid 70s didn't work out with weights and it wasn't until the late 80s before most teams had strength and conditioning trainers. A team trainer back in the day was the guy who taped you up or gave you a pill or shot so you could play through your injuries.

You cannot compare a player from the 50s or 60s with today's players and say that they couldn't play. You compare players from different eras based on how they did against the competition at the time. I read people all the time who say that Jim Brown wouldn't dominate today because of the size difference between DLs and LBs now compared with when he played. That's just dumb IMO! The guy played when he played and completely dominated the game!

If size were all there were to it then Brandon Jacobs would be ready to break Emmitt's all-time record in a year or two. Oh wait a minute, were nearly all of the guys who broke Jim Brown's record smaller than him? Payton, Dorsett, Sanders, & Emmitt are all a lot smaller than Brown was, yet they faced bigger DLs and LBs than he did. PPPPFFFFFTTTT!!!!! There goes that argument.

Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Hutson, Berry, Hirsch, Brown, Taylor, etc. all dominated the game WHEN THEY PLAYED. How much they dominated is what you compare with players of different eras.

 

[FanSince61]

Some of the comments about Deion being the best CB ever got me to thinking. What's your best Offense and Defense ever player by player.


Offense

QB...John Elway. I just think he is the mold for the QB you want.
RB...Walter Payton. This is the hardest one for me. Jim Brown?
FB...Jim Brown. He was a beast.
TE...Kellen Winslow. Part of AirCoryell.
WR...Jerry Rice. The best football player I have ever seen.
WR...Raymond Berry.
LT...Anthony Munoz. I believe he is in the top 3 players ever.
LG...John Hannah. His wars with Randy White are the best football I have ever seen.
C...Chuck Bednarik. Concrete Charlie may be the toughest SOB to ever play. I respect that.
RG...Larry Allen. The most powerful player ever.
RT...Jackie Slater.


Defense

LDE...Reggie White. The Minister of Defense was a terror.
DT...Randy White. Half man. Half monster. All around awesome.
DT...Bob Lilly. He was simply unstoppable without a double or triple team.
RDE...Deacon Jones. The center piece fo the Fearsome Foursome and the guy peopel really did fear.
OLB...Derrick Thomas. Hard to stop.
MLB...Dick Butkus. He defined nasty and he could destroy an Offense.
OLB...Lawrence Taylor. Only Jerry Rice was a better football player IMO.
CB...Mel Renfro.
SS...Ronnie Lott. Oh my gosh what a game changer.
FS...Emlen Tunnell. A fearless leader who played with passion and anger.
CB...Deion Sanders. The only true "Shut Down Corner" I have ever seen.

The changes I would make.

 

[jobberone]

This is what makes this so very hard to do with any great deal of accuracy...

Lets take Rice for instance... Would Rice be the best ever if Moss had Montana and Young throwing to him...he looked pretty predestrian without a HOFer throwing at him but than again he was aged....so it is subjective.

Did Otto do more for Paul Brown or did Paul Brown do more for Otto...hard to say... same with Landry/Staubach... Walsh/Montana... it was the right match at the right time...

I had a hard time leaving Gayle Sayers off the list even though he only played for such a short time and was never the same after the knee operation... Same with Bo Jackson...these guys truly might have been the best ever had things just broke a little different...

Gale sayers was absolutely the best open field runner I ever saw. Got a chance some years ago to see some Chicago game films of his time before the knee injury. Not just the stuff on NFL films or other sites. Actual game films showing his every play for 8 games. Including the SF game that he scored 6 tds in. Its like everyone else was in slo mo and he was running normal.

I agree. I have Sayers on my "Ultimate Team" but couldn't list him as the best ever because of his lack of longevity/durability.

I used Sayers as my punt and kick returner. No one could really argue too loudly if you used Sayers and Brown as HB and FB. Granted he didn't play that long but he did enough to get to the HOF easily even as a short timer. That's how good he was. Jackson was just too part time as well as too short of a career. No telling how good he would have been. Had he been drafted by someone other than the Bucs he may have played football from day one.

 

[THUMPER]

I used Sayers as my punt and kick returner. No one could really argue too loudly if you used Sayers and Brown as HB and FB. Granted he didn't play that long but he did enough to get to the HOF easily even as a short timer. That's how good he was. Jackson was just too part time as well as too short of a career. No telling how good he would have been. Had he been drafted by someone other than the Bucs he may have played football from day one.

The RBs on my "Ultimate Team" are:

HB: Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Earl Campbell, & Gale Sayers

FB: Jim Brown, Jim Taylor, & Bill Brown

Since this is a team that will play a certain style, my FBs need to be able to run the ball as well as block and catch so Moose doesn't make the cut. Just in case anyone would want to argue the point.

 

[jobberone]

The RBs on my "Ultimate Team" are:

HB: Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Earl Campbell, & Gale Sayers

FB: Jim Brown, Jim Taylor, & Bill Brown

Since this is a team that will play a certain style, my FBs need to be able to run the ball as well as block and catch so Moose doesn't make the cut. Just in case anyone would want to argue the point.

I love those players. I wouldn't have Taylor on that list but I've admitted how much I hate the Packers so....maybe I'm too biased. To me Motley was a much better player. Riggins may be better than any other FB except Brown. I could argue that easily. But I can't argue with Taylor for your pick.

 

[CF74]

I must throw OL Eric Williams into the mix for best OT. The Big E was the most dominating O Linemen I have ever seen.

Plus he owned Reggie White. I'd rather have Harvey Martin over Reggie..

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I'm just going by players from my era.

QB: Peyton Manning.
Tailback: Walter Payton
FB: Moose Johnston
WR: Jerry Rice
TE: Tony Gonzalez
OT: Anthony Munoz
OG: Larry Allen
C: Dwight Stephenson

DE: Reggie White
DT: Joe Klecko
OLB (pass rusher): Lawrence Taylor
OLB (cover/run stopper): Junior Seau
MLB: Mike Singletary
CB: Deion Sanders
SS: Ronnie Lott
FS: Ed Reed

K: Adam Vinatieri
P: Mike Scifres




YAKUZA

 

[THUMPER]

I love those players. I wouldn't have Taylor on that list but I've admitted how much I hate the Packers so....maybe I'm too biased. To me Motley was a much better player. Riggins may be better than any other FB except Brown. I could argue that easily. But I can't argue with Taylor for your pick.

I considered Motley and Csonka but Taylor was a little better blocker and was as good a runner as either IMO. Taylor was one of the few Packers I didn't dislike (along with Adderley).

Funny, I didn't even consider Riggins. He was certainly talented enough but being a Commander and a jerk I just couldn't have him on my team. I have Baugh as my punter and seriously considered Darrell Green but took Rod Woodson instead. Tough choice between a Commander and a Stealer.

 

[THUMPER]

I'm just going by players from my era.

QB: Peyton Manning.
Tailback: Walter Payton
FB: Moose Johnston
WR: Jerry Rice
TE: Tony Gonzalez
OT: Anthony Munoz
OG: Larry Allen
C: Dwight Stephenson

DE: Reggie White
DT: Joe Klecko
OLB (pass rusher): Lawrence Taylor
OLB (cover/run stopper): Junior Seau
MLB: Mike Singletary
CB: Deion Sanders
SS: Ronnie Lott
FS: Ed Reed

K: Adam Vinatieri
P: Mike Scifres




YAKUZA

Klecko over Randy White? You disappoint me sir.

 

[BAT]

Niiice! Almost everyone was a transcendent player, extremely important for a "best ever". This is probably the most legit "best ever" list I have seen, but still wanted to tweak it a bit.

OK, I usually put together a TEAM that I feel would play well together and fit the style I would use, but I'll go strictly with who I believe was the BEST at their position:

QB: Otto Graham The best QB ever to play the game IMO, not even close. Greatest winner ever. Johnny Unitas would be my 2nd choice.
RB: Emmitt Smith Could do it all and was money when you needed him. Tough to pick him over Payton but I've made a lot of comparisons over the years and Emmitt comes out on top.
FB: Jim Brown Not the best blocker but was a beast running the ball. Could have gone with Jim Taylor
WR: Jerry Rice The obvious choice.
WR: Don Hutson Rate him above Jerry Rice even. He really was that dominant.
TE: Kellen Winslow A couple I could have picked here but Winslow dominated the game.
OT: Anthony Munoz Easy pick.
OT: Erik Williams In his heyday, Big E was the most dominant OL, bar none. EASILY.
OG: Larry Allen Another easy pick.
OG: John Hannah No brainer.
C: Dermonti Dawson I have never seen an OL move like that guy, and he punished people too.
P: Sammy Baugh I can't have a team without Baugh and his punting records STILL stand today.
K: Morten Andersen Could have gone with Gary Anderson and been OK but I liked Morten.

DT: Bob Lilly The best there ever was, bar none!
DT: Mean Joe Greene Edges Merlin Olsen in my mind. Best D player on possibly the best D ever.
DE: Deacon Jones Defined the sack and was just a beast. Could have gone with Gino Marchetti though (Ditto!).
DE: Reggie White This one was tough because I couldn't stand him but facts are facts and Wedgie was the best.
OLB: Lawrence Taylor Another no brainer.
OLB Bobby Bell Tough choice but amazingly, there aren't that many great OLBs. Lots of MLBs though. Thought about going with Howley here.
MLB: Dick Butkus Bill George, Singletary, or Bednarik would have worked here but Butkus was the best ever.
S: Ronnie Lott Just too dominant to not have him here.
S: Jack Tatum Only went to 3 pro bowls in a brief 10 year career, but he was Butkus-esque on the field. Ed Reed will displace him when it is all said and done though.
CB: Deion Sanders Prefer Mike Haynes too, but Primetime deserves his due, even if only a one dimensional corner, he was the only corner who could shut down one side of the field
CB: Dick "Night Train" Lane Lots of guys I could have gone with here but he had an intimidation factor that the others didn't have plus he was a great cover guy on top of it. He still holds the record for INTs in a season set as a rookie in 1952!
KR: Gale Sayers Was a breathtaking RB & returner.

Keep in mind, this is NOT a team I would put together to play, just who I believe were the best ever to play their positions.

 

[THUMPER]

Niiice! Almost everyone was a transcendent player, extremely important for a "best ever". This is probably the most legit "best ever" list I have seen, but still wanted to tweak it a bit.

Dawson is a great choice! I didn't think of him.

Can't argue much with your choices. Good tweaks.

 

[jobberone]

I considered Motley and Csonka but Taylor was a little better blocker and was as good a runner as either IMO. Taylor was one of the few Packers I didn't dislike (along with Adderley).

Funny, I didn't even consider Riggins. He was certainly talented enough but being a Commander and a jerk I just couldn't have him on my team. I have Baugh as my punter and seriously considered Darrell Green but took Rod Woodson instead. Tough choice between a Commander and a Stealer.

Well, I prefer to think of Riggins as a Jet for the reasons you gave. :laugh2: He really deserves more recognition. Not too many players get it going even better at his age. I don't know of a better RB after ten seasons in the NFL.

 

[THUMPER]

Well, I prefer to think of Riggins as a Jet for the reasons you gave. :laugh2: He really deserves more recognition. Not too many players get it going even better at his age. I don't know of a better RB after ten seasons in the NFL.

He was a much better RB after he hit 30 than he ever was before that. Weird.

When you compare the first half of his career with the 2nd half it is a trip:

1st - 1158 carries, 4655 yards, 4.02 avg, 28 TDs, 2.42%
2nd - 1758 carries, 6697 yards, 3.81 avg, 76 TDs, 4.32%

That's amazing when you compare it with other RBs who tend to decline rapidly once they hit 31.

John Henry Johnson is the only other RB I can think of who was better later in his career.