Best Leaders in History and a partial why if can

[Sarek]

I love Tesla.

It's like you said earlier, so many great leaders, and all leading in their own way. I'm done, gnight. This thread has barley scraped the surface.

 

[maxdogg]

You know its funny how history works because Fabius fended off Hannibal for over a decade and they brought this young lad scipio to lead zama among major protests from Fabius and rightly so. Crazy stuff.

 

[Melonfeud]

I have. ITs full of cherry picked 'facts' and the author had a clear agenda from day one. There is a reason the vast majority of historians call his claims CRAP.

Its because they are.

But since I am bored I will try and educate you.


Roosevelt was not even briefed the last few months of 1941 because the code breakers were worried there would be leaks; a confidential memo was found in a White House trash can that alluded to the code breaking. So the idea that Roosevelt even KNEW much is ludicrous. The last two Japanese Carriers were not operational until just ONE MONTH before Pearl Harbor so that also pisses all over those so called conspiracy theories.

As I state earlier we figured the Japanese would attack; we just did not really know WHERE they would attack FIRST. Philippines, Malaysia, Java were the obvious targets.

Pearl Harbor was a VERY LONG WAY from the nearest Japanese Base at Truk. The Destroyers had to have extra fuel in DRUMS strapped on their main decks and EVEN THEN they were nearly empty when they got back. It needs to be UNDERSTOOD just how much of a risk Yamamoto took with what was basically the cream of the IJN and its entire offensive striking force (Kudo Batai) going that far into waters that we scouted and had submarine patrols in. There were so many ways they could have been spotted along the way but were not. As I said Tora Tora Tora is a very good education for people as to what happened and why.

We were in peacetime mode and frankly fat dumb and happy. General Short so discounted an attack that he had 80% of our fighters and bombers all grouped together on the fields- perfect target for aerial attack- because he was obsessed with sabotage. Kimmel was more worried but also did not believe the Japanese would be that daring and the conflicting directives coming from washington basically made him freeze and do nothing.

The fact that the code breakers were not allowed to share the information with the area commanders (Short and Kimmel) was another huge mistake.

In Washington it was not much better. As I have mentioned the isolationist faction had a huge amount of political pull at that time and FDR had to pander to them.

That is why he emphasized that they needed the Japanese to attack us- the conspiracy nuts jump on that but the reality was FDR was right; any aggressive move by us would have been meat to the isolationists to push for pulling back from Lend Lease and aid to Russia and England.

Numerous well researched books have said this over the years; a few idiotic pieces of crap like Day of Deceit does not change the reality.

Yer' eloquence in espousing the guestimates of my crap level is commendable ,Friend,,,
Yet, you've pretty much( if not in FACT! backtracked& crawdaddied) on yer' initial posted reply,,,

 

[Melonfeud]

I was never a fan of Alexander, he was a great soldier/conqueror form my point of view. When i first saw this scene i felt like standing shoulder to shoulder with Cleitus against Alexander.

LOL, I had at one time acquired about a 3" thick hardbound book about this guy "Alexander the great",,, now understanding the simple fact that the mere intimidating sheer size of this volume put me at unease ( as I was committed to reading the Bible from cover to cover at that time) but ,what I did retain from that literary compilation concerning him was about his death,and he'd drank himself to death on wine in mourning over the death of his homosexual lover at an early to mid ranged age in his 30's,,,that pretty much chilled any ongoing fandom I'd held ,,,also there was only the briefest of notes in the book concerning " flying shields" appearing and turning the tide of battle,,, I mean like only one frickin' little paragraph outta that whole boat anchor sized casing-liner, too!,,,

 

[Melonfeud]

Richard the Lionheart was also an Epic leader !

After I'd made it thru the 3 minute mark,,, it panned out to a rather enjoyable projection,,,,in that style & level of mounted amoured war being fared, a stud/ stallion horse is the ONLY WAY TO RIDE!,,, the Day to Day, P.I.A. they present be damned,,,,
( I had my mule de-balled, it "kinda" helped,,,)

 

[diefree666]

Yer' eloquence in espousing the guestimates of my crap level is commendable ,Friend,,,
Yet, you've pretty much( if not in FACT! backtracked& crawdaddied) on yer' initial posted reply,,,

its always amusing when someone tries to act intelligent but just cannot quite do it. Congratulations

 

[Melonfeud]

No doubt man it was like when he went it was over.

You guys talking about 'stonewall' Jackson?

 

[diefree666]

You know bro I live close to Gettysburg and have walked the battlefield a lot.
I still wonder if Lee had listened to Longstreet if it would have went the other way.
I think it would have.

Lee was so contemptuous of the Army of the Potomac and so sure of his and his army's invincibility that it would never have happened. Tactically Longstreet wanted to dig in and make the Union attack; exactly what the Union did at Gettysburg and thus damage the army of Northern Virginia beyond its ability to rebuild. It was never again able to attack like it had before; and that was the final nail in the coffin of the South.

 

[diefree666]

I agree I read his history and what he did was epic and crazy.
It did not eclipse Genghis but came close yet it seems very few know this.

what is interesting is that even at the various military academies who make a point of studying military leaders of the past he is almost ignored.

 

[Melonfeud]

its always amusing when someone tries to act intelligent but just cannot quite do it. Congratulations

I'm pleasantly amused at yer' lame broadside retort!
Cuz' it's obviously all you got in that whole retaliatory department,,,, reread your posts for a refresher in between swabbing the froth spewage from yourselves lips,friend! You called me B.S. in my proven claims,and yet you your self acknowledge the KNOWN FACTS,,,

L.A.M.E. be yer' name henceforth & fer' evermore

 

[Melonfeud]

Here's words.

289.24 minutes?
,,,,,,
Now,I often go to sleep with the headphones on, listening to the book of Enoch,ancient astronaut's, anunakki and the like,,, but now I've got Plato to look forward to,,,,

(Thanks,bro!)

 

[Melonfeud]

LOL

 

[Melonfeud]

you are full of crap. To be polite

Tora tora tora is probably the best thing you could watch to educate yourself

We knew Japan would probably attack somewhere. Their history as regards Russia showed that. BUT we did NOT think they were CRAZY enough to take the RISK of trying for Pearl Harbor; which could have gone so badly so many ways. And do to the isolationist idiocy that was very strong in December 1941 we had to be careful about being aggressive.

You do remember that little thing called the Rape of Nanking don't you? THAT is what really started our pushing of Japan to get out of China. Your prattle about regional sphere of influence is just that.

all in all that bs about Roosevelt knowing is just the same BS that some peddle about 9/11. Congratulations on your tin foil hat

O.k.,,,carry on!
I'd probably be crushed ( at least until I'd quickly swept you back into the corner of the irrelevant self entitled A-holes of yer' ilk reside)
And thought you were of actual importance in the grand scheme of things,,,but hey! Yer just a sour old A-hole pretty much from day number one to begin with, so a shot of 90 proof is of much more worthy proponderations.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I have. ITs full of cherry picked 'facts' and the author had a clear agenda from day one. There is a reason the vast majority of historians call his claims CRAP.

Its because they are.

But since I am bored I will try and educate you.


Roosevelt was not even briefed the last few months of 1941 because the code breakers were worried there would be leaks; a confidential memo was found in a White House trash can that alluded to the code breaking. So the idea that Roosevelt even KNEW much is ludicrous. The last two Japanese Carriers were not operational until just ONE MONTH before Pearl Harbor so that also pisses all over those so called conspiracy theories.

As I state earlier we figured the Japanese would attack; we just did not really know WHERE they would attack FIRST. Philippines, Malaysia, Java were the obvious targets.

Pearl Harbor was a VERY LONG WAY from the nearest Japanese Base at Truk. The Destroyers had to have extra fuel in DRUMS strapped on their main decks and EVEN THEN they were nearly empty when they got back. It needs to be UNDERSTOOD just how much of a risk Yamamoto took with what was basically the cream of the IJN and its entire offensive striking force (Kudo Batai) going that far into waters that we scouted and had submarine patrols in. There were so many ways they could have been spotted along the way but were not. As I said Tora Tora Tora is a very good education for people as to what happened and why.

We were in peacetime mode and frankly fat dumb and happy. General Short so discounted an attack that he had 80% of our fighters and bombers all grouped together on the fields- perfect target for aerial attack- because he was obsessed with sabotage. Kimmel was more worried but also did not believe the Japanese would be that daring and the conflicting directives coming from washington basically made him freeze and do nothing.

The fact that the code breakers were not allowed to share the information with the area commanders (Short and Kimmel) was another huge mistake.

In Washington it was not much better. As I have mentioned the isolationist faction had a huge amount of political pull at that time and FDR had to pander to them.

That is why he emphasized that they needed the Japanese to attack us- the conspiracy nuts jump on that but the reality was FDR was right; any aggressive move by us would have been meat to the isolationists to push for pulling back from Lend Lease and aid to Russia and England.

Numerous well researched books have said this over the years; a few idiotic pieces of crap like Day of Deceit does not change the reality.

Agreed.

I do not think there was a conspiracy to withhold info from the commanders at Hawaii.

If there hadn't been the comedy of errors (the lining up of planes in close formation out in the open to avoid saboteurs and the missing of the Japanese planes coming in– thinking they were American planes from California) the amount of damage could have been considerably reduced.

 

[diefree666]

O.k.,,,carry on!
I'd probably be crushed ( at least until I'd quickly swept you back into the corner of the irrelevant self entitled A-holes of yer' ilk reside)
And thought you were of actual importance in the grand scheme of things,,,but hey! Yer just a sour old A-hole pretty much from day number one to begin with, so a shot of 90 proof is of much more worthy proponderations.

I treat your comments with the respect they deserve which is none.

 

[diefree666]

Agreed.

I do not think there was a conspiracy to withhold info from the commanders at Hawaii.

If there hadn't been the comedy of errors (the lining up of planes in close formation out in the open to avoid saboteurs and the missing of the Japanese planes coming in– thinking they were American planes from California) the amount of damage could have been considerably reduced.

It still would have been bad because at that time the IJN aviators were the best on the planet and the Zero was incredibly maneuverable compared to anything we had. We had yet to find out how vulnerable their aircraft were and how to fight them; that would take some months.

In all reality the damage they did to the fleet was frankly minimal as the old battleships were of very limited value.

The aircraft losses were no big deal and we lost only a few pilots.

Genda and several others argued with Nagumo to stay and destroy the fuel farm and damage the shipyard as much as possible; THAT would have been huge. If the fuel farm had been destroyed that impact would have been much greater than all the other damage taken. We at that time only had 6 fast tankers in commission and it would have taken them almost 6 months to restore the fuel farm inventory. We would have been severely limited in any operations away from the west coast. We would not have been able to do the Doolittle Raid and Halsey's hit and run operations in the OTL did a fair amount of keeping the IJN more cautious. And more than likely we would have not been able to fight Coral Sea which was a important precursor to the victory at Midway.

Luckily in the end Nagumo was not all that much of a risk taker and after having done so much with so little loss he decided to get out while he was ahead.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It still would have been bad because at that time the IJN aviators were the best on the planet and the Zero was incredibly maneuverable compared to anything we had. We had yet to find out how vulnerable their aircraft were and how to fight them; that would take some months.

In all reality the damage they did to the fleet was frankly minimal as the old battleships were of very limited value.

The aircraft losses were no big deal and we lost only a few pilots.

Genda and several others argued with Nagumo to stay and destroy the fuel farm and damage the shipyard as much as possible; THAT would have been huge. If the fuel farm had been destroyed that impact would have been much greater than all the other damage taken. We at that time only had 6 fast tankers in commission and it would have taken them almost 6 months to restore the fuel farm inventory. We would have been severely limited in any operations away from the west coast. We would not have been able to do the Doolittle Raid and Halsey's hit and run operations in the OTL did a fair amount of keeping the IJN more cautious. And more than likely we would have not been able to fight Coral Sea which was a important precursor to the victory at Midway.

Luckily in the end Nagumo was not all that much of a risk taker and after having done so much with so little loss he decided to get out while he was ahead.

Agree, the losses sustained by the battleships wasn't much of a factor in the future success of the American Navy in the Pacific.

 

[BigStar]

289.24 minutes?
,,,,,,
Now,I often go to sleep with the headphones on, listening to the book of Enoch,ancient astronaut's, anunakki and the like,,, but now I've got Plato to look forward to,,,,

(Thanks,bro!)

Thought I was the only one. Even if I don't buy it all, it's dang entertaining and oddly also watch it to help me fall asleep.

Great thread though. I was going to go with Tesla too but saw he was mentioned.

 

[Melonfeud]

I treat your comments with the respect they deserve which is none.

WHhhaaaa!
Well,you certainly don't have to get all pissed off about it,Friend,,,I mean,it's not like I've keyed your car door or kick your dog,,,SHEESE,,,,,

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Lee was so contemptuous of the Army of the Potomac and so sure of his and his army's invincibility that it would never have happened. Tactically Longstreet wanted to dig in and make the Union attack; exactly what the Union did at Gettysburg and thus damage the army of Northern Virginia beyond its ability to rebuild. It was never again able to attack like it had before; and that was the final nail in the coffin of the South.

Lee's spirit was "attack". Even at Antietam where he was greatly outnumbered, he was looking to put together enough units to attack.

He had a terrific defensive position at Fredericksburg which calmed his desire to lay into the AOP.

The challenge at Gettysburg is that the Union army was more apt to "dig in" than the AONV. Plus the Confederates felt very good about their situation after July 1st and I just can't see them (Lee) suddenly giving up their aggressive tendencies. On top of that their position at Gettysburg, Seminary Ridge wasn't nearly as good a defensive position as what Meade had.

Longstreet's desire to go left and try to intercede between the AOP and Washington DC is interesting to talk about but moving an entire army with supplies and wounded on that kind of journey in territory he wasn't 100% familiar with would have been interesting.

The Union did have units strung out south between Gettysburg and Frederick who would have alerted the AOP braintrust of such a move if Meade & Co. did not notice it from the get go.