Best QB Game

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Montana was the best. I can't believe all the homers voting for Staubach.
 

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THUMPER

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Skinsmaniac;1990454 said:
Montana was the best. I can't believe all the homers voting for Staubach.

Montana played in a passer-friendly system and era yet he was the first QB to retire with a higher career passer rating than Otto Graham. When we are talking about who the best/greatest QB of all time there is no doubt that it was Otto Graham.

Graham played from 1946-1955, 10 years. All 10 years he was named All-Pro, all 10 years he took his team to the championship game, winning 7 of them. He ranked lower than 3rd in only one season in passer rating and was 1st 4 times. He is 2nd only to Steve Young in rushing TDs by a QB 50 - 55 (and no, he wasn't a single-wing TB).

Otto Graham was the Wilt Chamberlain of pro football, his stats blew away everyone else and some have STILL not been surpassed. His career average of 9.0 yards per pass attempt will likely NEVER be broken. His career winning percentage is over 85%, Staubach is 2nd among QBs with over 10 years at 75.6% (Brady is at 77.5% but he has only played 8 seasons).

When you look at his stats you have to take into account the era when he played and compare him with his contemporaries, (Waterfield, Van Brocklin, Tittle, Layne, Baugh, Luckman, & Blanda: All HoFers) they don't come close! The rules did not favor passing, even the ball was less aerodynamic.

You can check out his stats at: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrahOt00.htm

Without a doubt the greatest QB to ever play the game.

The only knock people have against him is that he played 4 years in the AAFC, a rival league from 1946-1949 but the Browns won the title their first year in the NFL so they couldn't have been that weak. Also, no one docks Len Dawson, Joe Namath, or other AFL QBs who played in a weaker league but the old guard NFL owners really hated the AAFC and especially the Browns and only recently accepted stats from that league as "official".

Even so, the Browns played in the championship game all 6 seasons in the NFL and won it 3 times (1950, 1954, 1955). Graham went out a winner, TWICE. He retired after winning the 1954 championship game but Paul Brown begged him to come back for one more season in 1955 and they won it all again. Graham led the league in passing that year with a 94.0 passer rating. Staubach is the only other QB who went out as the top rated QB.

I could go on and on (too late)...

P.S. I HATE the Browns but I rank Otto Graham as the top QB of all time and Paul Brown as the greatest HC ever. Truth is truth.
 

jackrussell

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THUMPER;1990477 said:
Montana played in a passer-friendly system and era yet he was the first QB to retire with a higher career passer rating than Otto Graham. When we are talking about who the best/greatest QB of all time there is no doubt that it was Otto Graham.

Graham played from 1946-1955, 10 years. All 10 years he was named All-Pro, all 10 years he took his team to the championship game, winning 7 of them. He ranked lower than 3rd in only one season in passer rating and was 1st 4 times. He is 2nd only to Steve Young in rushing TDs by a QB 50 - 55 (and no, he wasn't a single-wing TB).

Otto Graham was the Wilt Chamberlain of pro football, his stats blew away everyone else and some have STILL not been surpassed. His career average of 9.0 yards per pass attempt will likely NEVER be broken. His career winning percentage is over 85%, Staubach is 2nd among QBs with over 10 years at 75.6% (Brady is at 77.5% but he has only played 8 seasons).

When you look at his stats you have to take into account the era when he played and compare him with his contemporaries, (Waterfield, Van Brocklin, Tittle, Layne, Baugh, Luckman, & Blanda: All HoFers) they don't come close! The rules did not favor passing, even the ball was less aerodynamic.

You can check out his stats at: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrahOt00.htm

Without a doubt the greatest QB to ever play the game.

The only knock people have against him is that he played 4 years in the AAFC, a rival league from 1946-1949 but the Browns won the title their first year in the NFL so they couldn't have been that weak. Also, no one docks Len Dawson, Joe Namath, or other AFL QBs who played in a weaker league but the old guard NFL owners really hated the AAFC and especially the Browns and only recently accepted stats from that league as "official".

Even so, the Browns played in the championship game all 6 seasons in the NFL and won it 3 times (1950, 1954, 1955). Graham went out a winner, TWICE. He retired after winning the 1954 championship game but Paul Brown begged him to come back for one more season in 1955 and they won it all again. Graham led the league in passing that year with a 94.0 passer rating. Staubach is the only other QB who went out as the top rated QB.

I could go on and on (too late)...

P.S. I HATE the Browns but I rank Otto Graham as the top QB of all time and Paul Brown as the greatest HC ever. Truth is truth.

A very valid argument.

I've had someone pm me with the point of how a poster's age coincides with their selections. I'm certain it does...it's the age old truth of generational ideas.

Who doesn't remember their Dad saying..."You've never seen so and so play..." And he was right, but of course that really never stopped me from having my beliefs. Now it's me tellin' the young'ens "you've never seen so and so play...." The circle goes unbroken.
 

jackrussell

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OK...Thumper has made me see the light. I stand corrected.
 

THUMPER

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jackrussell;1990489 said:
A very valid argument.

I've had someone pm me with the point of how a poster's age coincides with their selections. I'm certain it does...it's the age old truth of generational ideas.

Who doesn't remember their Dad saying..."You've never seen so and so play..." And he was right, but of course that really never stopped me from having my beliefs. Now it's me tellin' the young'ens "you've never seen so and so play...." The circle goes unbroken.

I never actually got to see Graham play except in highlight films (I ain't THAT old :D ) but my dad did and said that he was so much better than anyone else it was scary. The things that really stand out to me the most are his toughness near the goalline (50 TDs on only 460 carries!) and that he was a winner. There are lots of great QBs but none who won as much as Graham did. He also never missed a game in his 10 year career, and that in an era when QBs were fair game and late hits were just part of the game.

Like I said, I could go on and on...
 

Cajuncowboy

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Skinsmaniac

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THUMPER;1990477 said:
Montana played in a passer-friendly system and era yet he was the first QB to retire with a higher career passer rating than Otto Graham. When we are talking about who the best/greatest QB of all time there is no doubt that it was Otto Graham.

Graham played from 1946-1955, 10 years. All 10 years he was named All-Pro, all 10 years he took his team to the championship game, winning 7 of them. He ranked lower than 3rd in only one season in passer rating and was 1st 4 times. He is 2nd only to Steve Young in rushing TDs by a QB 50 - 55 (and no, he wasn't a single-wing TB).

Otto Graham was the Wilt Chamberlain of pro football, his stats blew away everyone else and some have STILL not been surpassed. His career average of 9.0 yards per pass attempt will likely NEVER be broken. His career winning percentage is over 85%, Staubach is 2nd among QBs with over 10 years at 75.6% (Brady is at 77.5% but he has only played 8 seasons).

When you look at his stats you have to take into account the era when he played and compare him with his contemporaries, (Waterfield, Van Brocklin, Tittle, Layne, Baugh, Luckman, & Blanda: All HoFers) they don't come close! The rules did not favor passing, even the ball was less aerodynamic.

You can check out his stats at: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrahOt00.htm

Without a doubt the greatest QB to ever play the game.

The only knock people have against him is that he played 4 years in the AAFC, a rival league from 1946-1949 but the Browns won the title their first year in the NFL so they couldn't have been that weak. Also, no one docks Len Dawson, Joe Namath, or other AFL QBs who played in a weaker league but the old guard NFL owners really hated the AAFC and especially the Browns and only recently accepted stats from that league as "official".

Even so, the Browns played in the championship game all 6 seasons in the NFL and won it 3 times (1950, 1954, 1955). Graham went out a winner, TWICE. He retired after winning the 1954 championship game but Paul Brown begged him to come back for one more season in 1955 and they won it all again. Graham led the league in passing that year with a 94.0 passer rating. Staubach is the only other QB who went out as the top rated QB.

I could go on and on (too late)...

P.S. I HATE the Browns but I rank Otto Graham as the top QB of all time and Paul Brown as the greatest HC ever. Truth is truth.


Those are all good points. I would point out that Graham led his team to the Championship when there were only 8 or 12/13 teams in the league, while Montana was in a league with I believe 28 teams. This means Graham only had to beat out three or five teams to get to a championship while Montana had to beat out 13, yet he still went to and won four superbowls. The lack of competition also devalues stats such as finishing below third in passer rating only once. To finish 3rd in passing in Graham's era would be equivalent to finishing 10th in Montana's (I would argue that passer rating is a meaningless stat anyway). The lack of competition also devalues stats such as allpro teams made since he's only competing against seven other QBs. (to be fair, there was nothing more that Graham could have done to prove himself - you can't do better than first)

Also, I think the idea that Montana played in a passing era is overhyped (although relative to Graham's era it certainly was). First of all it wasn't until 1994 that the NFL instituted the chuck rule, which had a profound influence on the passing game. For example, in the 1980s there was only one receiver to catch 100 passes in a season (not Rice, but the incomparable Art Monk). From 1990-1993 there was one each season, and then after the rule change there were 19 players who caught 100 balls in the next five years.

In the end, it is impossible to compare players who played in such different eras, but I'm sticking with Joe.
 

Dodger

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THUMPER;1990477 said:
Montana played in a passer-friendly system and era yet he was the first QB to retire with a higher career passer rating than Otto Graham.
Uh...wait a sec...I thought Staubach had the highest passer rating of all time when he retired in '79...
 

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THUMPER

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The Dodger;1990612 said:
Uh...wait a sec...I thought Staubach had the highest passer rating of all time when he retired in '79...

That was before the NFL finally agreed to count Graham's AAFC stats.

Graham 86.6
Staubach 83.4
 

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