Blackistone: Coaching hires prove NFL discriminates

[tyke1doe]

1-Wasn't Payton a Coordinator with the G-Men when the went to the SuperBowl?

He was their offensive coordinator, yes. But that team was blown out, so I don't think you can use his Super Bowl appearance as a positive qualifying factor.

2-Why wasn't it a big deal that the Chiefs didn't interview anyone but Herm Edwards.

Because Herm has history with Hunt and because he's a black coach. Lateral move.

3- I think it's a shame that the Lewis' (Tim and Sherm)are not Head Coaches, Rivera not so much. Lovie Smith is a defensive coach and takes a lot of credit for the defense.

Agreed.

4- I'm not too upset that Mo Carthon isn't a head coach. Have you heard the guy speak? Not only do I want my coach to be good football wise, but also represent my franchise. I can't see how Carthon interviews well after listening to him speak a few times.

LOL!

 

[bbgun]

It's very simple, Mr. Blackistone: whites are demonstrably better coaches the way blacks are demonstrably better cornerbacks.

Here's how this race hustler thinks: when blacks dominate on the field, it's thanks solely to ability and skill, but when whites dominate on the sideline or front office, it's due to ... discrimination.

 

[tyke1doe]

I don't see how there was a black candidate that was superior. In fact, I think the best coach available was Mike Sherman, and it looks like he's not going to have a job at all.

So now the candidate has to be superior.

LOL.

I guess what they say is true, We have to be twice as good to even be considered.

 

[CoCo]

I don't really have time to engage this fully but I do feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents.

Many times this discussion breaks down when people adopt extreme positions. Without addressing individuals (time) a couple comments I object to.

"Why at every level is it always assumed blacks are not interested in managerial jobs?" I assume tyke doesn't want us to take this literally, but why put that burden on the reader?

"The NFL is a microsom of society" Ok. But didn't Blackistone suggest the NBA is further along in racial equality. Why is THAT league not a microcosm of society.

IMO, its some of these subtle but extreme statements that ****** progress in the conversation.

I do believe that collectively we have a ways to go in treating each other with total equality and fairness be it in the NFL, NBA or society in general. But at the same time lets keep it real.

Using Norv Turner as proof caucasians get preferential treatment doesn't win any points with me really. He was HC at Washington. Then Al Davis hired him briefly at Oakland. But then some have discredited Davis sanity to begin with. This is the same Davis who did hire and hang with Art Shell and is also reportedly interviewing James Lofton. Turner has also had OC jobs with Dallas, Miami & SF. I think there is perception that Turner as a proven HC loser is getting HC jobs handed to him repeatedly. That claim can really only be made in Oakland where Davis hiring practices are certainly questionable.

As a caucasian I do believe most of us do not fully understand what its like to be a minority and repeatedly discriminated against. I think it was Mick who suggested most people want to hang or work with those most like them. I think that is really true. Most don't see that as discrimination, but in fact it is. I think THAT is the discrimination most of us are blind to and in that case I do think the Rooney rule can help. Discrimination can be much more subtle than a concious choice against skin color. But we should not underestimate the power of the subtle. And btw, it doesn't necessarily make you evil.

But sometimes those who speak out against discrimination do so with words and emotions that do as much harm as good. That I have seen first hand in a very powerful and destructive way.

So if you are trying to wipe out discrimination (as we all should be) be very careful in how you take that to market. Best of intentions can go completely awry very easily IMO.

 

[tyke1doe]

It's very simple, Mr. Blackistone: whites are demonstrably better coaches the way blacks are demonstrably better cornerbacks.

Only because they've been getting shot after shot after shot. It wasn't until the 90s that blacks even got a shot at coaching, and that was when the league had one token in either Dungy or Shell.

Given enough time, the same amount of time whites have had, you'll see as much success from black coaches if Lovie, Marvin and Dungy are any indication.

Here's how this race hustler thinks: when blacks dominate on the field, it's thanks solely to ability and skill, but when whites dominate on the sideline or front office, it's due to ... discrimination.

It's not a matter of race hustling. It has to do with opportunity.

No one has denied whites the opportunity on the field. But blacks have been denied opportunity in the front office.

It's amazing that it your simplistic observation you don't recognize the different dynamics.

But it doesn't surprise me.

 

[BigDFan5]

So now the candidate has to be superior.

LOL.

I guess what they say is true, We have to be twice as good to even be considered.

Superior simply means better, not twice as good as you tried to imply

 

[Paniolo22]

So now the candidate has to be superior.

LOL.

I guess what they say is true, We have to be twice as good to even be considered.

Or you have to prove that you're successful doing something. If you notice, guys like Singletary and Edwards have ascended pretty quickly due to their history and their coaching abilities. However, without the history, I think they would be in the same boat as a lot of other African American coaches...hoping to get an interview.

 

[Alexander]

So did Sherman Lewis, and he was Green Bay's offensive coordinator when the Packers won the Super Bowl.

He coached with Holmgren that had a grand total of two appearances. Mangini has three Super Bowl wins. Sorry, you cannot make a conclusive argument that Lewis was substantially more qualified. But you can continue to beat the racism drum if you prefer.

Uh, last time I checked his credentials, Payton wasn't an offensive coordinator or a quarterback coach with a Super Bowl team. As for coaching with Parcells, correct me if I'm wrong but has Parcells taken the Cowboys to the Super Bowl yet?

Giants under Fassel. I guess you didn't check.

You do know that McCarthy became Packer's QB coach AFTER Favre established himself as one of the elite QBs in the league and AFTER Favre's Super Bowl run.

I posted that about Favre tongue in cheek. McCarthey is actually the only hire that you could claim was a reach.

You just don't get it. No one is saying hire someone based solely on race. But give a black position or coordinator a chance to impress you like so many other candidates.

Your favorite Sherman Lewis had plenty of opportunities. Ted Cottrell has had his interviews as well. Could it be simply these candidates lack the temperment? Not all coaches can be head coaches.

The point isn't that Turner has rings. The point is that he keeps on getting head coaching jobs when he has shown zilch. Okay, the first job, I can buy that. But subsequent jobs?

He has got one head coaching chance after Washington. And that was with a desperate Oakland. And if you are barking up the racism tree with that hire, you must also have forgot that Davis hired Art Shell years ago.

 

[ddh33]

So now the candidate has to be superior.

LOL.

I guess what they say is true, We have to be twice as good to even be considered.

I hope (and think) you know that isn't what I was saying at all. I simply believe the best guy should get the job - even if he's only a little better or a little more prepared.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

[QUOTE=bbgun]It's very simple, Mr. Blackistone: whites are demonstrably better coaches the way blacks are demonstrably better cornerbacks.

Here's how this race hustler thinks: when blacks dominate on the field, it's thanks solely to ability and skill, but when whites dominate on the sideline or front office, it's due to ... discrimination.[/QUOTE]

What exactly are you basing this on. Sounds like your doing a little race hustling yourself. You learn a lot about the thought process of america by reading threads on topics like this.

 

[aikemirv]

You don't even follow your own examples.

First, how does your example prove that whites were discriminated against? They weren't. Ten of them still got interviewed while only three blacks got interviewed. They have greater numbers in the interviewing process.

LOL!

You can't even pick an example that fits your own argument.

Now back to his point:

Hiring white candidates is not an issue. So he doesn't have to show how many whites were passed over for jobs, especially since the majority of the jobs are going to white men.

He just has to show the qualification of black candidates who weren't interviewed and match them with the qualification of white candidates who did get jobs.

But I don't expect you to understand.

Hey Tyke,

I am going to write an article and say that these 4 specific white guys are qualified for a head coaching position but did not get a job/interview, and then I am going to name 4 black guys who did get coaching jobs/interviews.

Now, then I compare there qualifications and say the white guys were just as qualified for the jobs. They did not get them so there is racism.

Did I give you enough information to prove that the white guys were treated with racism?

 

[NinePointOh]

Alright, nine pages into this thing, let's get one important thing out of the way:

Racism and discrimination are two very different things.

Blackistone is alleging discrimination, not racism.

 

[bbgun]

Only because they've been getting shot after shot after shot. It wasn't until the 90s that blacks even got a shot at coaching, and that was when the league had one token in either Dungy or Shell.

Given enough time, the same amount of time whites have had, you'll see as much success from black coaches if Lovie, Marvin and Dungy are any indication.

You make it sound as if we don't learn anything about the talents, skills, and abilities of black assistants while they're coordinators. The NFL is a vicious, win-now business. No owner in his right mind would hire a middling, warmed over white guy over a proven, dynamic black asst with the goods. It would be insanely self-defeating. You seem to have the ability to peer into men's hearts and detect racial malice. I don't.

It's not a matter of race hustling. It has to do with opportunity.

No one has denied whites the opportunity on the field.

Bull****.

Chris Harry and Charles Robinson of the Orlando Sentinel write in "Endangered Species:"

Since Craig James ran for 1,227 yards and was voted to the Pro Bowl in 1985, 95 running backs have combined for 235 1,000-yard rushing performances over those 18 years. None has been white.

While minorities make up more than 70 percent of the NFL, running back is even more exclusive. In 2003, 98 percent of the NFL's running backs were minorities. The NFL kicked off the 2004 season Thursday night, but today marks the traditional opening weekend, and none of the 32 teams has a white tailback as a first- or second-teamer...

A white running back hasn't led the NFL in rushing since Green Bay's Jim Taylor ran for 1,474 yards in 1962 or been drafted in the first round since Penn State's John Cappelletti was chosen 11th overall by the Rams in 1974.

There are 117 colleges playing Division I-A football in 2004, and none was scheduled to start a white tailback this weekend. Two schools -- Nevada, with Chance Kretschmer, and UAB, with Dan Burks -- have starting white tailbacks who are injured. Kretschmer, who rushed for 1,732 yards and 15 touchdowns as a freshman in 2001, received no scholarship offers and attended Nevada as a walk-on. Burks was a star high school player in Birmingham who was thought to be too slow to play for any "major" school...

A second article, also posted on

Jon Entine's site

, by this brave pair called "

THE BLACK QB COMPARISON: Getting people to talk is problematic

" documents that while it's hard to get the so-called experts to shut up about the supposed shortage of black quarterbacks, almost nobody wanted to talk on the record about why blacks 100% monopolize the glamorous tailback position in the NFL. (Tailback is the second most glamorous position after only quarterback. On the other hand, tailbacks seems to get chewed up and spit out faster, with shorter periods of brilliance than at other positions.)


Bobby Bowden of Florida State wasn't afraid to state the obvious:

When Florida State Coach Bobby Bowden was asked to explain the decline of the white running back, he laughed so hard, he actually grabbed on to the reporter posing the question...

"You go with the best, and it just happens to be there are more minority tailbacks than there are non-minority," says Bowden, who has spent nearly 50 years in the college ranks. "Why? I don't know. There's just more of them. They run better, jump higher.

"God has made every man different. He's even made our races different. There are some races that are smaller than others. There are some races that are taller than others. There are some races, it seems like they have more athletic ability than others. It just seems they [minority tailbacks] have more talent as runners than my race. I think that has something to do with heredity, you know?"

This site echoes some similar themes:

http://www.castefootball.us/

But blacks have been denied opportunity in the front office.

Prove it. Please prove that they had superior skills and abilities than the men currently occupying those jobs.

It's amazing that it your simplistic observation you don't recognize the different dynamics.

But it doesn't surprise me.

Whereas you opt for demagoguery and baseless accusations.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Is that not the progress you were looking for?

That basically sums up my very very very first post in this thread besides posting the article of course.

We have a ways to go.

All I can say is the evidence was presented to the NFL by the Cochran Committee and the NFL obviously thought there were some problems based on what they saw.

That's really all I can say.

- Mike G.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

You make it sound as if we don't learn anything about the talents, skills, and abilities of black assistants while they're coordinators. The NFL is a vicious, win-now business. No owner in his right mind would hire a middling, warmed over white guy over a proven, dynamic black asst with the goods. It would be insanely self-defeating. You seem to have the ability to peer into men's hearts and detect racial malice. I don't.




Bull****.

Chris Harry and Charles Robinson of the Orlando Sentinel write in "Endangered Species:"

Since Craig James ran for 1,227 yards and was voted to the Pro Bowl in 1985, 95 running backs have combined for 235 1,000-yard rushing performances over those 18 years. None has been white.

While minorities make up more than 70 percent of the NFL, running back is even more exclusive. In 2003, 98 percent of the NFL's running backs were minorities. The NFL kicked off the 2004 season Thursday night, but today marks the traditional opening weekend, and none of the 32 teams has a white tailback as a first- or second-teamer...

A white running back hasn't led the NFL in rushing since Green Bay's Jim Taylor ran for 1,474 yards in 1962 or been drafted in the first round since Penn State's John Cappelletti was chosen 11th overall by the Rams in 1974.

There are 117 colleges playing Division I-A football in 2004, and none was scheduled to start a white tailback this weekend. Two schools -- Nevada, with Chance Kretschmer, and UAB, with Dan Burks -- have starting white tailbacks who are injured. Kretschmer, who rushed for 1,732 yards and 15 touchdowns as a freshman in 2001, received no scholarship offers and attended Nevada as a walk-on. Burks was a star high school player in Birmingham who was thought to be too slow to play for any "major" school...

A second article, also posted on

Jon Entine's site

, by this brave pair called "

THE BLACK QB COMPARISON: Getting people to talk is problematic

" documents that while it's hard to get the so-called experts to shut up about the supposed shortage of black quarterbacks, almost nobody wanted to talk on the record about why blacks 100% monopolize the glamorous tailback position in the NFL. (Tailback is the second most glamorous position after only quarterback. On the other hand, tailbacks seems to get chewed up and spit out faster, with shorter periods of brilliance than at other positions.)


Bobby Bowden of Florida State wasn't afraid to state the obvious:

When Florida State Coach Bobby Bowden was asked to explain the decline of the white running back, he laughed so hard, he actually grabbed on to the reporter posing the question...

"You go with the best, and it just happens to be there are more minority tailbacks than there are non-minority," says Bowden, who has spent nearly 50 years in the college ranks. "Why? I don't know. There's just more of them. They run better, jump higher.

"God has made every man different. He's even made our races different. There are some races that are smaller than others. There are some races that are taller than others. There are some races, it seems like they have more athletic ability than others. It just seems they [minority tailbacks] have more talent as runners than my race. I think that has something to do with heredity, you know?"

This site echoes some similar themes:

http://www.castefootball.us/

Prove it. Please prove that they had superior skills and abilities than the men currently occupying those jobs.




Whereas you opt for demagoguery and baseless accusations.

What exactly is your point

 

[NinePointOh]

You seem to have the ability to peer into men's hearts and detect racial malice. I don't.

Every single person -- white, black, straight, gay, male, female -- has stereotypes about people who are different from them. It's silly to think anybody can be exempt from that part of human nature, and it's silly to think it doesn't affect the way we treat others, even on a subconscious level. It's different from full-fledged racism, but it often leads to unintentional discrimination.

You (I assume) and I are both white. If you're walking down a dark alley at night and you see a man walking toward you, do you feel differently if the stranger is black than you do if the man is white? Because I do. I can recognize it, admit it, and deal with it. Failing to acknowledge that these stereotypes exist is exactly why there is still progress to make.

 

[bbgun]

What exactly is your point

That a lack of minorities in the front office is not de facto proof of discrimination. Just like a lack of straight dancers on Broadway is hardly proof of discrimination against heterosexuals.

 

[NinePointOh]

That a lack of minorities in the front office is not de facto proof of discrimination. Just like a lack of straight dancers on Broadway is hardly proof of discrimination against heterosexuals.

That's my only major gripe with the Blackistone article. Although I don't necessarily disagree with the author, the examples he cites are evidence, not proof.

 

[The30YardSlant]

The NFL doesnt have a lot of black coaches, so they are racist?

Makes perfect sense....

It's gotton to the point now where, unless there's actual evidence to supprt a claim of racism, I just blow it off. FYI, they arent hiring you because you're black, they arent hiring you because the other guy is better.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

That a lack of minorities in the front office is not de facto proof of discrimination. Just like a lack of straight dancers on Broadway is hardly proof of discrimination against heterosexuals.

I agree with this statement, now you want to explain why you feel white coaches are better than black coaches as you stated in your ealier post.