Bobby, Poor Bobby

Zimmy Lives

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shaketiller;2188761 said:
At the risk of being reminded again, helpfully, that I know nothing about football, and certainly not about the 3-4 defense, I reiterate my view that Carpenter played pretty well under the circumstances. In fact, he was the most active defender on the field during the time in which he played. It's possible that the reports of his strong practices created almost a no-win position -- unless he forced a couple of fumbles, intercepted a pass and sacked the quarterback seven or eight times, he was going to be seen as having been a disappointment.

I thought it was awfully clear that a D-line failing to hold the point of attack, being pushed back two or three yards at the snap, contributed most to the gashes in the run defense and to Carpenter being shoved out of a couple of plays. Apparently I was mistaken, which is not terribly unusual.

Carpenter certainly is much more in the mold of an Urlacher-style LB than of a Butkus (and before anyone calls the fire department, I am suggesting neither than he has Urlacher ability or Butkus ability, just drawing an analogy to relative strengths and weaknesses). Carpenter needs to improve his ballast and ability to take on and shed blocks, but the particular game didn't, in my view, reveal any substantial weakness in that area. He had little chance to get much done when blockers reached the second level so easily.

As an aside, there appears to be a recurring trend -- someone offers a defense of a player under siege, whether Roy Williams, Marcus Spears or Bobby Carpenter -- and the defense is offered as proof of a Pollyanish inability to recognize a team's flaws, pure homerism. On the other hand, a critical post is dismissed as "anti-Cowboys."

This game of football is pretty complicated, despite my lack of understanding, and I shiver to employ this over-used word... nuanced. Coaches often mention that what they see on a television broadcast is of limited use in evaluating particulars. That being the case, it's difficult for amateurs -- the area into which most of us fall -- to make infallible observations.

It's also true that once a player has been obtained, whether in the draft, by trade, or as a free agent, original or otherwise, his play on the field must be judged relative to the competition. What does a number one draft choice look like? Damarcus Ware? Marcus Spears? David LaFleur? Tony Dorsett? Howard Richards? Randy White? Bob Lilly? Jim Jeffcoat?

What does an original free agent look like? Cliff Harris? Drew Pearson? Tony Romo? Or one of the hundreds who have, over the years, failed to make a team?

Is it important, in a football competition context, that Terrell Owens wasn't a first round pick? Rayfield Wright? Flozell Adams? Bradie James? Marion Barber? Did being a first round choice make Danny Noonan a great player?

It's true in the day of the salary cap that price tags matter, thus making it painful if a first round choice fails, and to some extent, even if he becomes a serviceable player, never achieving stardom. It matters. But the draft will always provide pleasant surprises and notable disappointments. And it's important, I think, to have some context --Jeffcoat was no Bob Lilly, no Randy White, but he was a good football player, and the draft choice was far from wasted.

Carpenter's career path still is unknown, but I like to think we can attempt ton evaluate him as a player rather than as a former first round draft choice. I like to think we can recognize his weaknesses and acknowledge that he might also have strengths.

I also like to think we can discuss these things without being subjected to a knee jerk, "Pollyanna" or "Anti-Cowboys" label.

Agreed.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I'd like to see "Carp" perform with Spears, Canty, and Tank/Rat in front of him before making any kind of educated judgement or evaluation of his performanace.
 

Shake_Tiller

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adbutcher;2189124 said:
Very good and thoughtful post.

I agree that indecision makes a player play slow and playing him out of position won't help his case at all. However, the Carp Committee are reacting to criticism towards Carpenter as being completely unwarranted. A blind man can see that he is not playing aggressive, you know like most good linebackers; you say because of the defensive line play, I say because he has no heart.

Also for those who are using tackles as the only measure of success for a LB then Hambrick would still be in the league.

I know the initial tone of my post doesn't seem like it but I want Carpenter to succeed because naturally that would be to the benefit of the Cowboys. However, what he has displayed thus far I don't believe he will. He still has the rest of the preseason and practice to prove me wrong, but he also had 2 years prior to do so.
adbutcher, I don't disagree with you. He needs to be more aggressive in taking on blockers and in filling holes. And whether it has to do with heart or with the play of the DL -- I'm just not sure. I'm encouraged that he was active. It doesn't provide all the answers, but maybe it was a step in the right direction.

All of us have players we "root" for, instinctively. And all of us have opinions. Like you, I am happy to be wrong when it breaks in the Cowboys' favor. I wasn't excited about Tony Romo's potential. I was so badly wrong I could be in the Wrong Hall of Fame. And I am extremely happy to have been wrong.

Until recently, I have been fairly convinced that Stanback offered the best hope for a real, long-term "surprise" at WR. Miles Austin might be proving me wrong. I surely do hope so.

A long time ago, at a preseason game at Texas Stadium, I assured friends that the rookie who made some surprisngly good plays that evening had absolutely no chance of playing a down in the NFL. Bill Bates was the kid's name. He played a while, I think.
 

adbutcher

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shaketiller;2189239 said:
adbutcher, I don't disagree with you. He needs to be more aggressive in taking on blockers and in filling holes. And whether it has to do with heart or with the play of the DL -- I'm just not sure. I'm encouraged that he was active. It doesn't provide all the answers, but maybe it was a step in the right direction.

All of us have players we "root" for, instinctively. And all of us have opinions. Like you, I am happy to be wrong when it breaks in the Cowboys' favor. I wasn't excited about Tony Romo's potential. I was so badly wrong I could be in the Wrong Hall of Fame. And I am extremely happy to have been wrong.

Until recently, I have been fairly convinced that Stanback offered the best hope for a real, long-term "surprise" at WR. Miles Austin might be proving me wrong. I surely do hope so.

A long time ago, at a preseason game at Texas Stadium, I assured friends that the rookie who made some surprisngly good plays that evening had absolutely no chance of playing a down in the NFL. Bill Bates was the kid's name. He played a while, I think.

I agree totally with everything you have said especially regarding Romo.

A few of us were at the Boyz/Cardinals game in Arizona and needless to say I thought we had something special in Drew Henson and Romo was JAG, boy am I glad I was wrong.

I hope I am wrong about Carp but time is starting to run out.
 

Alexander

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adbutcher;2187616 said:
Ah I see you prefer someone to blow sunshine up your arse when it is raining. To paraphrase what Coach Garrett said, “I didn’t like those coaches who were telling me thataboy when I knew I was stinking up the joint, rather I respect the coaches that rode my butt and pushed me to get better”.

If it is your opinion that I am less of a fan because I offered criticism about a player then your opinion doesn’t mean crap to me.


Here, here.

Most of the time you hear that "phony fan" nonsense coming from someone really can't defend their homeristic nonsense anymore.
 
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So this thread along with many others answers the question. Carpenter is the new whipping boy. I bet Roy feels relieved.
 

Ben_n_austin

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adbutcher;2189124 said:
Very good and thoughtful post.

I agree that indecision makes a player play slow and playing him out of position won't help his case at all. However, the Carp Committee are reacting to criticism towards Carpenter as being completely unwarranted. A blind man can see that he is not playing aggressive, you know like most good linebackers; you say because of the defensive line play, I say because he has no heart.

Also for those who are using tackles as the only measure of success for a LB then Hambrick would still be in the league.

I know the initial tone of my post doesn't seem like it but I want Carpenter to succeed because naturally that would be to the benefit of the Cowboys. However, what he has displayed thus far I don't believe he will. He still has the rest of the preseason and practice to prove me wrong, but he also had 2 years prior to do so.

You must of seen the way our starters went in and handled business. That's why you're talking all this crazy talk. :D

Watch Thomas - that's how it's done.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Chief;2188825 said:
I totally agree with adbutcher and the other respected posters in this thread.

It figures that a Bobby Carpenter thread would bring you out of your hole.

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

The point was he was talking dopwn to that guy and as such he was doing what you criticize me for.

Here is another word: sanctimonious. Its cute you guys have your little club.
 

Big Dakota

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I LOVE ME SOME ME!;2189480 said:
So this thread along with many others answers the question. Carpenter is the new whipping boy. I bet Roy feels relieved.


It won't last long. The PS will be over in a couple weeks and Carp won't be on the field so there'll be nothing to whip on.
 

adbutcher

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I LOVE ME SOME ME!;2189480 said:
So this thread along with many others answers the question. Carpenter is the new whipping boy. I bet Roy feels relieved.

Hardly a whipping boy but if you can't see that he needs to play better and take off his skirt when he is on the field :) , then I opinions differ.
 
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