Bobby, Poor Bobby

newlander

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Choc. Lab and other are right: he's just not physical AT ALL. Humiliating for a Big ten linebacker: osu bucnuts should be embarassed. What I notice more than anything is how weak his legs and core is. Bradie James, Zach Thomas, etc... are like tree trunks. I mean Carp isn't like Jack Lambert, but he's just so light from the waste down.......he'll be gone by next year if not sooner. I wouldn't be shocked if they shipped him out at the end of camp so they don't have to cut him for nothing: QFT gents, not trying to "rip" a player from my favorite team the last 32 years. But when someone sucks, well...............
 

dbair1967

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newlander;2188300 said:
Choc. Lab and other are right: he's just not physical AT ALL. Humiliating for a Big ten linebacker: osu bucnuts should be embarassed. What I notice more than anything is how weak his legs and core is. Bradie James, Zach Thomas, etc... are like tree trunks. I mean Carp isn't like Jack Lambert, but he's just so light from the waste down.......he'll be gone by next year if not sooner. I wouldn't be shocked if they shipped him out at the end of camp so they don't have to cut him for nothing: QFT gents, not trying to "rip" a player from my favorite team the last 32 years. But when someone sucks, well...............

guess you'll be disappointed to see this then (from FWST Blog)

Bobby does it again: Wade Phillips said Bobby Carpenter's hard work is paying off. He busted up a pass intended for Jason Witten in team drills. Carpenter has been stellar in practice and led the team with seven tackles in the preseason game. Wade said he looked better than he did at any point last year.

David
 

Big Dakota

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dbair1967;2188316 said:
guess you'll be disappointed to see this then (from FWST Blog)

Bobby does it again: Wade Phillips said Bobby Carpenter's hard work is paying off. He busted up a pass intended for Jason Witten in team drills. Carpenter has been stellar in practice and led the team with seven tackles in the preseason game. Wade said he looked better than he did at any point last year.

David


I'm glad to hear Wade say that, because despite how any of us think Carp has been doing, he's not going anywhere in 08, and maybe not even in 09, unless we go ILB early. His salary of 885K in 2009 certainly isn't cost prohibitive. I'm not thrilled with his progress, by there's no reason to cut bait yet, considering there doesn't look to be anyone, talent wise, pushing him out the door. I just think, if he doesn't improve very soon, he may be relegated to 3rd string in Dallas until he is pushed out the door.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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I put this on another board but I liked the post and think it has a place here.

This really should be obvious and really comes down to football 101. If the offense can get the defense moving backwards then they have won the battle. Carpenter was lined up about 5 yards being the LOS. The reason for this is it allows him to read the play and move to the ball carrier in space.

If the dline is doing its job they are at least holding their ground or better getting in and through the gaps to make a play on the ball carrier. When that happens the SLB has 5 yards to work with to pursue the ball carrier and make the tackle avoid blockers or engage blockers with forward momentum.

That didn't happen. Siavii and Ayodele were being sent 4 yards back so instead of him having 5 yards in front of him, he has 1 yard. People can sit there and say he needs to shed blocks but he cannot just run upfield like a ninny because hes proably going to have a bad angle and if he tries to loop around his dline that is coming towards him then he is creating huge lanes to cut back right through the teeth of the defense.

Because he has to stay home at the point of attack which happens to be coming right at him he has to try to hold it. He has a 250 lbs fullback coming to that POA with a clear shot at him. That fullback has 5 yards to get a full head of steam and he has a step or two to meet him. If he overcommits then as was said before the RB simply cuts back for a big gain. In Carps defense he held his ground against the FB with a huge advantage over him more or less.

That what I ask: wth do people expect. Hes not in a position to attack the ball carrier because of the dline getting blown back hes being attacked. Because the dline is getting blocked back towards them, the additional blockers have easy shots and angles toward defeners.

Its like when gimme talks about Zach 'slipping' the block. Sure it was a nice play but he lined up 3 yards behind the LOS, the DL is giving him more room and hes comming across the field from the weakside to the strongside where hes not really accounted for and the guards who is lunging at him is almost perpendicular which is about the worst angle you can take. Carp had defenders and blockers coming right at him.

There wasnt even one play where AYodele gave him 3 yards of field to work with.

And this talk of him being soft is ludicrous. Put 2 cones in front of you about a yard in front of you and 2 yards apart. Have a guy that is your same size get a 6 yard space to run to the cones and try to avoid or take on his block while staying hom in that hole. You would get knocked backwards just about every time. Not only did Carp hold him ground but he also had those 'cones' coming at him.
 

Shake_Tiller

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At the risk of being reminded again, helpfully, that I know nothing about football, and certainly not about the 3-4 defense, I reiterate my view that Carpenter played pretty well under the circumstances. In fact, he was the most active defender on the field during the time in which he played. It's possible that the reports of his strong practices created almost a no-win position -- unless he forced a couple of fumbles, intercepted a pass and sacked the quarterback seven or eight times, he was going to be seen as having been a disappointment.

I thought it was awfully clear that a D-line failing to hold the point of attack, being pushed back two or three yards at the snap, contributed most to the gashes in the run defense and to Carpenter being shoved out of a couple of plays. Apparently I was mistaken, which is not terribly unusual.

Carpenter certainly is much more in the mold of an Urlacher-style LB than of a Butkus (and before anyone calls the fire department, I am suggesting neither than he has Urlacher ability or Butkus ability, just drawing an analogy to relative strengths and weaknesses). Carpenter needs to improve his ballast and ability to take on and shed blocks, but the particular game didn't, in my view, reveal any substantial weakness in that area. He had little chance to get much done when blockers reached the second level so easily.

As an aside, there appears to be a recurring trend -- someone offers a defense of a player under siege, whether Roy Williams, Marcus Spears or Bobby Carpenter -- and the defense is offered as proof of a Pollyanish inability to recognize a team's flaws, pure homerism. On the other hand, a critical post is dismissed as "anti-Cowboys."

This game of football is pretty complicated, despite my lack of understanding, and I shiver to employ this over-used word... nuanced. Coaches often mention that what they see on a television broadcast is of limited use in evaluating particulars. That being the case, it's difficult for amateurs -- the area into which most of us fall -- to make infallible observations.

It's also true that once a player has been obtained, whether in the draft, by trade, or as a free agent, original or otherwise, his play on the field must be judged relative to the competition. What does a number one draft choice look like? Damarcus Ware? Marcus Spears? David LaFleur? Tony Dorsett? Howard Richards? Randy White? Bob Lilly? Jim Jeffcoat?

What does an original free agent look like? Cliff Harris? Drew Pearson? Tony Romo? Or one of the hundreds who have, over the years, failed to make a team?

Is it important, in a football competition context, that Terrell Owens wasn't a first round pick? Rayfield Wright? Flozell Adams? Bradie James? Marion Barber? Did being a first round choice make Danny Noonan a great player?

It's true in the day of the salary cap that price tags matter, thus making it painful if a first round choice fails, and to some extent, even if he becomes a serviceable player, never achieving stardom. It matters. But the draft will always provide pleasant surprises and notable disappointments. And it's important, I think, to have some context --Jeffcoat was no Bob Lilly, no Randy White, but he was a good football player, and the draft choice was far from wasted.

Carpenter's career path still is unknown, but I like to think we can attempt ton evaluate him as a player rather than as a former first round draft choice. I like to think we can recognize his weaknesses and acknowledge that he might also have strengths.

I also like to think we can discuss these things without being subjected to a knee jerk, "Pollyanna" or "Anti-Cowboys" label.
 

SkinsandTerps

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shaketiller;2188767 said:
I was assuming an ability to read. I spologize humbly for the assumption.

I do give you the point, that I did not read it all. But the likeness alone was enough to skip past it.

Now finishing the paragraph...you are still making the comparison. There is none.

Carpenter can't hold Urlacher's helmet on the sidelines...and I am not an Urlacher fan.
 

Shake_Tiller

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Again, I invite you to explore the virtues of literacy before falling deeper into the crevice. Reading is fundamental, as they say.
 

Chief

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FuzzyLumpkins;2187924 said:
And you whine about me being condescending, how very nice.

I totally agree with adbutcher and the other respected posters in this thread.

It figures that a Bobby Carpenter thread would bring you out of your hole.
 

Chocolate Lab

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dbair1967;2188316 said:
guess you'll be disappointed to see this then (from FWST Blog)

Bobby does it again: Wade Phillips said Bobby Carpenter's hard work is paying off. He busted up a pass intended for Jason Witten in team drills. Carpenter has been stellar in practice and led the team with seven tackles in the preseason game. Wade said he looked better than he did at any point last year.

David

Don't remember for sure who it was on the radio yesterday -- I think Bryan Broaddus, who has been a scout for us, the Packers, and the Chiefs -- who was noting how non-physical Carp was and asked, "You know why Bobby looks good in practice? Because they aren't hitting."

Everyone knows Bobby can run and is pretty athletic, but unfortunately the real thing isn't flag football.

I still remember Parcells being asked why Carp was inactive, and he said that "It's not for lack of athletic ability, that's for sure." Well, if the player is athletic and smart, which he is, what else is left?

Even Bradie James, who stunk his first couple of years, blew up some people in his first preseason. Carp is now in his third, and I don't remember that happening even once.
 

superpunk

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Chocolate Lab;2188855 said:
Even Bradie James, who stunk his first couple of years, blew up some people in his first preseason. Carp is now in his third, and I don't remember that happening even once.

We'll always have Seattle.
 

Shake_Tiller

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Carpenter has been a good special teams player, which would seem to indicate that he isn't overly fearful of contact. Having said that, he hasn't been as physical in his LB play as one would hope. I wonder, though, whether some of that hasn't been a product of indecision? He has moved from position to position, and that can be very difficult for a young player.

Please do not make the jump that I am comparing Carpenter to Randy White, but the Manster spent two years on the bench as a backup MLB. He was miscast, obviously, and indecisive in his play. White had played in that screwy Maryland defense (which was very effective) in which his position didn't really translate to the traditional 4-3.

Obviously, Carpenter hasn't had to make the same kind of switch, but he has been shuttled enough to make it plausible to think that indecisiveness could be a problem, and indecisiveness can be mistaken for lack of aggression. It will be interesting to see whether Carpenter appears more decisive, more aggressive when he is able to settle into one position. If not, he is going to have trouble playing LB in the NFL, whether in a 3-4 and 4-3 or whatever.

I find myself in the slightly uncomfortable position of defending a player who a) I was not particularly excited about when we drafted, and b) has shown little to this point.

Still, I maintain that little could be gathered from the first preseason game other than that the backup DL was being manhandled and the LBs exploited. I do think that deserves to be noted.
 

Chief

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shaketiller;2189010 said:
Carpenter has been a good special teams player, which would seem to indicate that he isn't overly fearful of contact. Having said that, he hasn't been as physical in his LB play as one would hope. I wonder, though, whether some of that hasn't been a product of indecision? He has moved from position to position, and that can be very difficult for a young player.

Please do not make the jump that I am comparing Carpenter to Randy White, but the Manster spent two years on the bench as a backup MLB. He was miscast, obviously, and indecisive in his play. White had played in that screwy Maryland defense (which was very effective) in which his position didn't really translate to the traditional 4-3.

Obviously, Carpenter hasn't had to make the same kind of switch, but he has been shuttled enough to make it plausible to think that indecisiveness could be a problem, and indecisiveness can be mistaken for lack of aggression. It will be interesting to see whether Carpenter appears more decisive, more aggressive when he is able to settle into one position. If not, he is going to have trouble playing LB in the NFL, whether in a 3-4 and 4-3 or whatever.

I find myself in the slightly uncomfortable position of defending a player who a) I was not particularly excited about when we drafted, and b) has shown little to this point.

Still, I maintain that little could be gathered from the first preseason game other than that the backup DL was being manhandled and the LBs exploited. I do think that deserves to be noted.

Good analysis.

I keep going back to this -- Bill Parcells, while he has missed on some players, knows linebackers and Carpenter is a guy whom I believe he hand-picked. He saw something in the guy (hopefully it wasn't just because he coached his dad).

The fact that Carpenter doesn't appear to be a very physical player makes this even more baffling because we know how Parcells feels about the importance of that.

Either way, I think Bobby is running out of time and needs to start knocking heads.
 

Shake_Tiller

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Indeed. I would love to see him get some time this week and next playing with the regulars. It might be revealing -- one way or the other.
 

adbutcher

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shaketiller;2189010 said:
Carpenter has been a good special teams player, which would seem to indicate that he isn't overly fearful of contact. Having said that, he hasn't been as physical in his LB play as one would hope. I wonder, though, whether some of that hasn't been a product of indecision? He has moved from position to position, and that can be very difficult for a young player.

Please do not make the jump that I am comparing Carpenter to Randy White, but the Manster spent two years on the bench as a backup MLB. He was miscast, obviously, and indecisive in his play. White had played in that screwy Maryland defense (which was very effective) in which his position didn't really translate to the traditional 4-3.

Obviously, Carpenter hasn't had to make the same kind of switch, but he has been shuttled enough to make it plausible to think that indecisiveness could be a problem, and indecisiveness can be mistaken for lack of aggression. It will be interesting to see whether Carpenter appears more decisive, more aggressive when he is able to settle into one position. If not, he is going to have trouble playing LB in the NFL, whether in a 3-4 and 4-3 or whatever.

I find myself in the slightly uncomfortable position of defending a player who a) I was not particularly excited about when we drafted, and b) has shown little to this point.

Still, I maintain that little could be gathered from the first preseason game other than that the backup DL was being manhandled and the LBs exploited. I do think that deserves to be noted.

Very good and thoughtful post.

I agree that indecision makes a player play slow and playing him out of position won't help his case at all. However, the Carp Committee are reacting to criticism towards Carpenter as being completely unwarranted. A blind man can see that he is not playing aggressive, you know like most good linebackers; you say because of the defensive line play, I say because he has no heart.

Also for those who are using tackles as the only measure of success for a LB then Hambrick would still be in the league.

I know the initial tone of my post doesn't seem like it but I want Carpenter to succeed because naturally that would be to the benefit of the Cowboys. However, what he has displayed thus far I don't believe he will. He still has the rest of the preseason and practice to prove me wrong, but he also had 2 years prior to do so.
 

ddh33

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I watched the replay of the game yesterday, and I didn't think he played poorly.
 

dallasfaniac

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I thought he played well, considering the surrounding talent. He played sideline to sideline, tackling players that others (Burnett) should have. However, I would not be suprised to see him traded. He seemed to get more playing time than most other players, which could be for us to evaluate him or potential trade partners.
 
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