Bring me your tired, your hungry, your stories...

[superpunk]

Okay, why did he want someone bigger?

And he wasn't that old or costly. He was less than two years older than Jason Ferguson and several months younger than Aaron Glenn.

You're not going to bait me, CL.

You're getting off track. I have never suggested that players might not be good fits for certain schemes. I acknowledged clearly above my thinking on that, with regards to TO, Roy and others.

If Parcells had decided to go ahead and play Dexter at OLB, it wouldn't have hid the talent he did have. It would have been unrealistic, asking him to switch to what amounts to a completely new position, but his talent would not be dissolved by scheme anymore than Dat's was - even though Dat is no prototypical 3-4 ILB. If these players had the talent people think they do (ie "breakout seasons", 1600 yards and such) than the scheme could not hide it.

They simply don't have it. And a scheme change will not give it to them.

 

[YosemiteSam]

SP, why did Parcells try to run Dexter Coakley out of town? Or, to be less dramatic, try to replace him with Bradie James?

Dexter had been a good player before, right? So why would the scheme change warrant replacing him?

In a 3-4 defense your LBers have to be bigger because you have less defensive linemen. Dexter was a pipsqueak at 5'10 230lbs. Parcells like the 3-4.

 

[Vintage]

I love the amount some people are willing to go to defend Spears, et al.

Spears played DE last year. He will play DE again. What has he shown that just oozes some of you to scream breakout season. Same for Julius.

"New scheme." Really? Then why has JJ had big games against Carolina and Seattle, to name a couple? Did Parcells just 'turn him loose' those games and then went back and said "ok, that was good, but enough of that"?

That makes no sense. JJ just isn't that good of a RB.

Same applies for Spears. He hasn't played particularly well since he came into the league.

Next is the "well, imagine if LT was a FB" crap. Even if LT was a FB, you'd still see the talent when he caught the ball, when he was given a handoff, etc.

I've yet to see JJ contribute anything close to any consistant good play that would lend me to believe he is a top talent, waiting to break out.

Ditto on Spears.

Even IF the scheme wasn't entirely beneficial to some (and that list would have to be small, since several players broke out in that scheme as I already have mentioned early), you'd have seen something - anything - to make one believe a star is being miscasted.\

And I am not talking about making the occasional play....

 

[YosemiteSam]

Vintage,

What I find funny is how people keep crucifying Spears when in fact his play was more solid than Canty's. Not to mention Canty kept making excuses when Spears kept his mouth shut most of the time.

Without question Spears is a better player than Canty. Without question a 2 gap defense is many many times harder to play than a single gap defense.

 

[dogunwo]

You're not going to bait me, CL.

You're getting off track. I have never suggested that players might not be good fits for certain schemes. I acknowledged clearly above my thinking on that, with regards to TO, Roy and others.

If Parcells had decided to go ahead and play Dexter at OLB, it wouldn't have hid the talent he did have. It would have been unrealistic, asking him to switch to what amounts to a completely new position, but his talent would not be dissolved by scheme anymore than Dat's was - even though Dat is no prototypical 3-4 ILB. If these players had the talent people think they do (ie "breakout seasons", 1600 yards and such) than the scheme could not hide it.

They simply don't have it. And a scheme change will not give it to them.

I think what people have an issue with, is that you seem to be saying they dont have "it" and never will. I think most want to believe they can develop "it" sometime this offseason, lol. It almost seems as if you DONT want them to develop so you could be right, not just avoiding the "kool-aid".

I personally dont care either way. If they can develop and be WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE, then great. If not, get them the hell out of here so they don't further waste cap space and roster spots.

 

[Vintage]

I think what people have an issue with, is that you seem to be saying they dont have "it" and never will. I think most want to believe they can develop "it" sometime this offseason, lol. It almost seems as if you DONT want them to develop so you could be right, not just avoiding the "kool-aid".

I personally dont care either way. If they can develop and be WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE, then great. If not, get them the hell out of here so they don't further waste cap space and roster spots.

He wants them to develop "it" much like I do. I want Canty and Spears to be our DE's for the next decade. What he is saying (and I am saying) is that he hasn't seen anything from either of them that suggests they will get "it." IOW, why get his expectations up when everything that we have seen suggests otherwise?

They could very well get "it." But right now, I am not sure that's going to be the case. I have not seen enough from either of them to make me want to keep them around as starters for that long.

In fact, I kind of want to see what Ratliff could do as a full time DE. Because he has shown me more in limited time than Spears and Canty have.

Dunno if Ratliff can be a full time DE....but I wouldn't mind us exploring that option...

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Not trying to bait anyone. Just pointing out that of course schemes matter. Different players are better suited to some schemes as opposed to others because different schemes require different skills from the players. It's that simple.

Wade's system is different, as we all know. Some players will be more suited to it and some will be less suited. You seem to be saying that players will only be what they have been, and a new scheme or coach won't matter. I say it will, at least to some.

I'm talking in general terms. Your point seems to be that Spears and Julius in particular aren't going to become supermen under a new coach. With that I have no argument, as probably no one does.

And just for the hell of it, how about another name for you: Steve Foley. Look at what he did in his previous several years in the league compared to what he did in 2004. Shouldn't he have stayed the same mediocre journeyman he always had been?

 

[superpunk]

I think what people have an issue with, is that you seem to be saying they dont have "it" and never will. I think most want to believe they can develop "it" sometime this offseason, lol. It almost seems as if you DONT want them to develop so you could be right, not just avoiding the "kool-aid".

I personally dont care either way. If they can develop and be WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE, then great. If not, get them the hell out of here so they don't further waste cap space and roster spots.

If that's what people think, then they're just glossing over the posts and not reading the point.

They can get better.

But it won't be because the scheme-fairy came and tailor fit a position for them. So this nonsense about how the idiot staff we had here before held these players down (for what reason, we'll never know) ought to just be abandoned. They weren't very good, and that was their own fault. And if they get better - that will be their achievement too. Our stars aren't stars because the scheme suits them perfectly, and our duds aren't duds for the opposite reason.

 

[MrMom]

Without question Spears is a better player than Canty.

What in the world have you been watching that has allowed you to make this statement?

 

[Vintage]

Wade's system is different, as we all know. Some players will be more suited to it and some will be less suited. You seem to be saying that players will only be what they have been, and a new scheme or coach won't matter. I say it will, at least to some.

No. I am saying Spears and JJ continue to show reasons why I should expect nothing more than mediocrity for their careers. I will continue to do so UNTIL they actually prove they can do something better.

And I see no reason to get my hopes up, "new scheme" and all.

I'm talking in general terms. Your point seems to be that Spears and Julius in particular aren't going to become supermen under a new coach. With that I have no argument, as probably no one does.

We have people expecting 1600 yard seasons from JJ and Luis Castillo like seasons from Spears.

Maybe both will reach that this year.

But history and everything else suggests otherwise. FWIW, I expect around a 1000 yards for JJ and am hopeful Spears can find a way to get 3 sacks this year.

And just for the hell of it, how about another name for you: Steve Foley. Look at what he did in his previous several years in the league compared to what he did in 2004. Shouldn't he have stayed the same mediocre journeyman he always had been?

Sweet. You can name one. For every one, there are countless others who remained mediocre.

 

[superpunk]

I'm talking in general terms. Your point seems to be that Spears and Julius in particular aren't going to become supermen under a new coach. With that I have no argument, as probably no one does.

Then what are you going round and round with me about?

I'm addressing that very notion, and trying to find rpecedent. This is my team, we're talking about here. I want to be thrilled with the prospect of a rejuvenation of these players who have disappointed us.

And just for the hell of it, how about another name for you: Steve Foley. Look at what he did in his previous several years in the league compared to what he did in 2004. Shouldn't he have stayed the same mediocre journeyman he always had been?

He did have a very nice year, and that's a good example, even though he went right back to journeyman status after his one breakout year. (contract-year?)

 

[Vintage]

Wait....what am I thinking with 3 sacks for Spears. He has yet to amass 3 TOTAL sacks for his career.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Yakuza do some research and basically said that Phillips increases sack totals by 20% generally, his first year on the job.

Apply that 20% to Spears and Canty and you get 1.2 sacks for the season.

I'll be generous and round up to 1.5

(I guess I will need to be "hopeful" for Spears finding the QB 3 times this year)

 

[superpunk]

Wait....what am I thinking with 3 sacks for Spears. He has yet to amass 3 TOTAL sacks for his career.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Yakuza do some research and basically said that Phillips increases sack totals by 20% generally, his first year on the job.

Apply that 20% to Spears and Canty and you get 1.2 sacks for the season.

I'll be generous and round up to 1.5

(I guess I will need to be "hopeful" for Spears finding the QB 3 times this year)

We do have examples of alot of players shining (if they're ever going to) in that third year, though. With Spears, I think we can be at least hopeful that this season he won't get injured, he'll come out motivated, and ready to make a difference. Lose some weight, too. It's gonna take motivation by HIM, tho, because I assume he has the talent somewhere in that body.

 

[YosemiteSam]

What in the world have you been watching that has allowed you to make this statement?

Apparently, you listen to others rather than deciding for yourself. If you had in fact watched the games you would have saw that Canty had leverage issues.

BTW...

Chris Canty 2006: 33 tackles, 24 solo, 9 assists, 1 sack.
Marcus Spears 2006: 45 tackles, 29 solo, 16 assists, 1 sack.

Thats 28% more tackle production. Of course stats don't always give the whole story. In a two gap defense as a DE you arn't always expected to make the tackle. You are expected to fill your gap allowing linebackers to make the tackle. Of course if you had leverage issues like Chris Canty did, you would have trouble holding your gaps. ...just as Chris Canty did.

 

[MrMom]

Apparently, you listen to others rather than deciding for yourself. If you had in fact watched the games you would have saw that Canty had leverage issues.

BTW...

Chris Canty 2006: 33 tackles, 24 solo, 9 assists, 1 sack.
Marcus Spears 2006: 45 tackles, 29 solo, 16 assists, 1 sack.

Thats 28% more tackle production. Of course stats don't always give the whole story. In a two gap defense as a DE you arn't always expected to make the tackle. You are expected to fill your gap allowing linebackers to make the tackle. Of course if you had leverage issues like Chris Canty did, you would have trouble holding your gaps. ...just as Chris Canty did.

Canty had 2.5 sacks last year, not one. Canty and Spears were both blown off the ball last year, but he didn't put as much pressure on the QB as Canty did. Canty just looked like the better athlete. When Spears was able to get free and attack the QB he looked overweight and bumbling. He showed me zero explosiveness.

I'm not saying that Canty is definitively better, but to say that Spears is clearly and most definitely the better player is wrong.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Canty had 2.5 sacks last year, not one. Canty and Spears were both blown off the ball last year, but he didn't put as much pressure on the QB as Canty did. Canty just looked like the better athlete. When Spears was able to get free and attack the QB he looked overweight and bumbling. He showed me zero explosiveness.

I'm not saying that Canty is definitively better, but to say that Spears is clearly and most definitely the better player is wrong.

Canty had 1 sack last year. He had 2.5 in 2005.

 

[MrMom]

Canty had 1 sack last year. He had 2.5 in 2005.

Right you are. So, Canty has amassed a pitiful 3.5 sacks for his career, and Spears 2.5.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Right you are. So, Canty has amassed a pitiful 3.5 sacks for his career, and Spears 2.5.

OK OK! They both suck!

 

[dallasfaniac]

My argument was not that it can and does happen, my argument is that you are trying to make a point to show that it doesn't happen and have thrown up excuse after excuse as to why it hasn't. Like saying any improvement is because of contract year, 3rd year player finally getting it, moving teams, finally stepping into a starting role, etc. etc.

I don't know if Spears and Jones can do it. I hope they can but if not it doesn't matter, they can be replaced. But I don't need to start a thread to try to prove that they can't by putting tighter and tighter restrictions on each players that is listed.

I mean, if we can't use players that are in contract years, have been in the league only a small amount of time, aren't on the team when a new coach comes in, haven't repeated their successes over several years afterwards etc. then all you are doing is trying to limit the pool to Spears and Julius. There's a word for this type of logic and it is called agenda.

I got into the other scheme arguments because someone doesn't know football. Schemes do make the player alot of the time, which is why Denver's blocking scheme can churn out 1000 yard rushers year after year. Some runningbacks run better without a lead back because they like to have the field spread out so they can look for cutback lanes, whereas other runningbacks prefer a lead blocker because they can power it for sure positive yardage.

 

[smarta5150]

Not sure if it was mentioned... probably not since its a basketball story.


Baron Davis.

He has been rotting in New Orleans or whereever the heck he was.

He came to Golden State, did nothing his 1st year.

Nelson comes in as the new Head Coach and rujuvenate Davis' career.