Bunting - Cowboys LOVE T. Smith

silverbear

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realtick;3887300 said:
It doesn't contradict it all bonehead.

I guess the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable is a lost art on this forum...

Yeah, I recognize the irony in that statement, what with my history on here... but it sure does seem like we have some REALLY touchy draftniks in here lately...
 

28 Joker

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Micheal Oher weighed in at 309 at the combine and started every game for the Ravens and most were at RT. He was a late first round pick who was projected to go higher by some. I think Oher played every single snap. By the way, Dallas could have had him, but they chose to mortgage the future by giving the farm and a mint away for Roy E. Willaims.

The Raiders started a 3rd round rookie at LT last year. Saffold, a second round pick, started at LT for the Rams.

In my opinion, there is no way that Smith will get past Dallas, Washington, Minnesota, and Detroit. The run will start in this area, and Smith is most likely rated at the top of Dallas', Washington's and Minnesota's board.

According to Wes Bunting, when Smith did struggle, it was due to a lack of strength. Smith would try to make up for needing to get stronger, by over extending at times. That can be addressed and is being addressed now due to his diet and training. You can add strength. Good luck to Carimi adding athletic ability. Smith has the frame to add the needed weight and not lose any athletic abilty. He is already up to 307 and most likey will be at 310-315 at his pro day. Ferguson has already paved the way for him and offers proof. Several of the top offensive tackles recently have entered the leaugue lighter than Smith is about to enter it.

Again, other teams plug and play offensive linemen who are going to be drafted much lower than Smith.

Again, after having to suffer through Mark Colombo playing RT last year, I don't see how anyone could not see how Smith could be a monster upgrade, even with any growing pains.

Furthermore, the Cowboys are not one draft away from fixing their problems, and they better start rebuilding this offensive line now, or their window and talent will be wasted, especially on offense. Dallas should draft with the long-term future in mind any way and not draft based on 2011 alone, because the last time I checked, they have won one playoff game since 1996 and are drafting in the top 10 now.

Nate Soler, Gabe Carimi, and Anthony Castonzo are very tall, leggy players. Nate Solder struggles with power. He is leggy and needs to get stronger. He doesn't play with the wide base that Tyron Smith plays with, and he doesn't have the low center of gravity that Smith has. He will struggle in the running game at RT and with power in his rookie year, but he has upside.

Ditto for Castonzo...He will get bull rushed in the NFL and will struggle early due to not being strong enough to anchor against the bull rush. Charlie Casserly wouldn't draft him until later in round 1 and says Bryan Buluga is better.

Sherrod's knock is power and finishing blocks, and he is a natural LT who needs to get stronger in his legs. His weight is up now, but he has never played RT. Smith has two years of film to back his play up at RT. Smith is the superior player athletically and physically when compared to Sherrod or any OT in this draft.

Other teams draft these guys and plug and play them fast and live with the growing pains, becasue they know that they will be better teams by November and December. Dallas has been criticised by the way they have neglected or drafted on the offensive line. Jerry Jones stated that he "liked our age" on the offensive line while Dallas was ranked dead last in rush offense last year, around that time period. He better unlike it fast, or he is going to be a very disappointed person in 2011. The Cowboys overall philosphy on the offensive line has been criticised.

Tyron Smith plays with a wide base and has a low center of gravity unlike Carimi, Castonzo, or Solder. If Smith is up to 310 and bigger and stronger than he was at USC, he can start at RT for the Cowboys and start easlily, imo. After all, it isn't like Mark Colombo was ever a great player to begin with. On his best days, Colombo could not even come close to matching Smith's skill level, experience or not. It's not like Dallas didn't have three guys blocking Micheal Strahan on Romo's last gasp playoff interceptiion. One of those guys was Jason Witten.

It's not like the standard at RT has been that high to start with. I don't buy for one second that Smith couldn't start at RT from day one. At some point, the Cowboys have to quit being gun shy when it comes to playing young players on the offesnive line. Again, other teams draft, plug, and play. No wonder Dallas' offensive line is in such horrible shape. Plus, it would help to actually draft a blue chip player and get an elite talent. That makes it a whole lot easier. You have something to work with.


Just my two cents.
 

RS12

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41gy#;3887394 said:
Micheal Oher weighed in at 309 at the combine and started every game for the Ravens and most were at RT. He was a late first round pick who was projected to go higher by some. I think Oher played every single snap. By the way, Dallas could have had him, but they chose to mortgage the future by giving the farm and a mint away for Roy E. Willaims.

The Raiders started a 3rd round rookie at LT last year. Saffold, a second round pick, started at LT for the Rams.

In my opinion, there is no way that Smith will get past Dallas, Washington, Minnesota, and Detroit. The run will start in this area, and Smith is most likely rated at the top of Dallas', Washington's and Minnesota's board.

According to Wes Bunting, when Smith did struggle, it was due to a lack of strength. Smith would try to make up for needing to get stronger, by over extending at times. That can be addressed and is being addressed now due to his dieat and training. You can add strength. Good luck to Carimi adding athletic ability. Smith has the frame to add the needed weight and not lose any athletic abilty. He is already up to 307 and most likey will be at 310-315 at his pro day. Ferguson has already paved the way for him and offers proof.
Several of the top offensive tackles recently have entered the leaugue lighter than Smith is about to enter it.

Again, other teams plug and play offensive linemen who are going to be drafted much lower than Smith.

Again, after having to suffer through Mark Colombo playing RT last year, I don't see how anyone could not see how Smith could be a monster upgrade, even with any growing pains.

Furthermore, the Cowboys are not one draft away form fixing their problems, and they better start rebuilding this offensive line now, or their window and talent will be wasted, especially on offense. Dallas should draft with the long-term future in mind any way and not draft based on 2011 alone, because the last time I checked, they have won one playoff game since 1996 and are drafting in the top 10 now.

Nate Soler, Gabe Carimi, and Anthony Castonzo are very tall, leggy players. Nate Solder struggles with power. He is leggy and needs to get stronger. He doesn't play with the wide base that Tyron Smith plays with, and he doesn't have the low center of gravity that Smith has. He will struggle in the running game at RT and with power in his rookie year, but he has upside.

Ditto for Castonzo...He will get bull rushed in the NFL and will struggle early due to not being strong enough to anchor against the bull rush. Charlie Casserly wouldn't draft him until later in round 1 and says Bryan Buluga is better.

Sherrod's knock is power and finishing blocks, and he is a natural LT who needs to get stronger in his legs. His weight is up now, but he has never played RT. Smith has two years of film to back his play up at RT. Smith is the superior player athletically and physically when compared to Sherrod or any OT in this draft.

Other teams draft these guys and plug and play them fast and live with the growing pains, becasue they know that they will be better teams by November and December. Dallas has been criticised by the way they have neglected or drafted on the offensive line.

Tyron Smith plays with a wide base and has a low center of gravity unlike Carimi, Castonzo, or Solder. If Smith is up to 310 and bigger and stronger than he was at USC, he can start at RT for the Cowboys and start easlily, imo. After all, it isn't like Mark Colombo was ever a great player to begin with. On his best days, Colombo could not even come close to matching Smith's skill level, experience or not. It's not like Dallas didn't have three guys blocking Micheal Strahan on Romo's last gasp playoff interceptiion. One of those guys was Jason Witten.

It's not like the standard at RT has been that hight to start with. I don't buy for one second that Smith couldn't start at RT from day one. At some point, the Cowboys have to quit being gun shy when it comes to playing young players on the offesnive line. Again, other teams draft, plug, and play. No wonder Dallas' offensive line is in such horrible shape. Plus, it would help to actually draft a blue chip player and get an elite talent. That makes it a whole lot easier. You have something to work with.


Just my two cents.

Remember everybody saying how strong Tony Mandarich was coming out MSU? I'll never forget his first game, him getting absolutely destroyed by Kevin Greene in his first pro game, a guy who weighed 50 pounds less. I dont think Mandarich ever recovered. My point is there is alot more involved than weight room strength to plying NFL tackle. Smith certainly looks the part on tape.
 

28 Joker

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RS12;3887398 said:
Remember everybody saying how strong Tony Mandarich was coming out MSU? I'll never forget his first game, him getting absolutely destroyed by Kevin Greene in his first pro game, a guy who weighed 50 pounds less. I dont think Mandarich ever recovered. My point is there is alot more involved than weight room strength to plying NFL tackle. Smith certainly looks the part on tape.


I agree. The guy was roided up, too.

He played like Jane didn't he.

Tyron Smith has the physical makeup and athletic ability and skill set to be a dominant player at LT or RT in the new age of the NFL. You could play him at either spot, but he has LT written all over him. Plus, Dallas has the luxury of playing him at RT during his rookier year, where he started at USC. I think 310 is a really good weight for him. That is Ferguson's weight, and that is who he is often compared, too. He may not reach his full potential in year one, but who does? You sure don't turn your nose up to him based on that. Smith sure could help the Cowboys, especially Felix Jones and Tony Romo.

As another poster pointed out...How many games did Doug Free start at LT before he was penciled in last year?
Doug Free is not even close to being on Smith's level in regards to pure talent and athletic ability.
For crying out loud, the Cowboys started a 6th round pick at RT in 2005, and it was working until Flozell Adams got hurt.

Charles Davis stated last night that if an offensive tackle goes in round one, it could be Dallas. He stated to "watch out for Tyron Smith" if he blows up his pro day. Smith is already in the 9-13 range now according to Wes Bunting. Dallas needs to catch up with the NFL when it comes to their offensive line. They have an athletic left side and a slow footed right side.

I wouldn't draft the Marcus Cannons of the world. That guy smells like a bust, especially with the knocks that I hear on him. Vela had a nice piece on guards today and concurred.
 

realtick

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TheFinisher;3887348 said:
... and I'm reaching

:bow: :bow: :lmao2: :lmao2:


You have no idea what my knowledge base of Smith is, but I can make a pretty accurate assumption of your knowledge about him being that you said he's on the same level as Ferguson when he was coming out. Anyone who remembers Ferguson as a prospect and has seen Smith this year would never make that statement. Ferguson was thought of as a top 5 lock going INTO his Senior season, and garnered 1st team All American honors that year. Smith is EXTREMELY raw and most likely will not be NFL ready in year 1. That's not to say he can't develop into a good player, but with our imminent need for a RT it would be wise to find a more polished RT than Smith who can step in from day 1.

Also, whether you realize it or not, a LT is valued way more than a RT. The fact that we already have a LT who is young will very much be discussed in the war room, and is the main reason why I don't believe we will draft Smith. Drafting a guy to play RT for you at 9 would be a terrible move from a value standpoint.

Now go back to playing in the sandbox.

Another logjam of crap from you...

First, you've been adament about not taking Smith for a couple weeks/a few months now. So it's not anything new and neither is the extent of your reasoning, which essentially amounts to "well, I just don't see anything special..." and posting his YouTube video against Virginia.

That's it.

Second, I said never "Smith is on the same level as Ferguson." That's simply made up crap, from the guy that makes up crap: you.

The fact is there are parallels to D'Brick and Smith in regards to them as individual players and the circumstances when they came out in the draft.

There is no reason not to draft Smith and play him at RT for a few seasons if you believe he can ultimately be an elite LT down the road. Free is 27, not old by any stretch, but say he gives you another 4-5 years of good service and starts declining at age 32. Tyron Smith will be 24 or 25 at that point, will be seasoned and ready to step in.

Why can't you wrap your little brain around that. Shall I make a YouTube clip for you? Is that the only medium that speaks to you?

Thanks for playing.
 

realtick

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silverbear;3887373 said:
I'm just not high on Tyron, because I like my offensive linemen BIG, STRONG and NASTY... so I'm not saying he won't be a good pro, but he is what I call a "finesse" linemen...

I know, a lot of teams these days are going toward smaller, quicker offensive lines, but IMO there are blockers in the draft who are bigger, but still plenty quick... IOW, I don't want some 350 pounder who you could time in the 40 using a sundial... gimme some more of what Hudson Houck likes, those "big butts", just pick through and find the ones with some quickness...

In this draft, my favorite first round OL prospect is Carimi, who IMO fits the profile that I'm looking for... I also like Marcus Cannon a lot, for the same reason (in the 2nd round, not the 1st)... and I don't care at all for Nate Solder, since most scouts seem to think he's best suited to a zone blocking scheme...

Carimi is my favorite linemen in this draft as well.

I completely concur about Solder too.

I'm not opposed to taking Tyron Smith. I'm just opposed to nitwits (not you)who actually haven't seen the kid play and form their opinions off of YouTube clips.
 

TheCount

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silverbear;3887382 said:
I guess the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable is a lost art on this forum...

I hope you realize the iro...

silverbear;3887382 said:
Yeah, I recognize the irony in that statement, what with my history on here... but it sure does seem like we have some REALLY touchy draftniks in here lately...

DAMN!

:laugh2:
 

28 Joker

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Everyone has the guys they like and want or their preferences. That is fine. It's just fun debate when it comes down to it. None of us are doing the picking, so that is really the bottom line. I think everyone will be o.k. if they just stick to their opinions about the players and stay away from making it personal.

I don't think Patrick Peterson is a savior for this team next year, so I don't want him in round 1. You can get a quality starting CB in this draft in rounds 2, 3, and 4, and Newman will buy that player some time. Plus, you can always draft another CB next year and add to the talent pool after drafting one this year.

Teams don't have to have a dominant, "Super CB" to win big, but the dynasties have had very good to great offensive lines, including the 1990s Dallas Cowboys. That is my opinion, anyway. The Jets have the best offensive line in football, imo, and their offensive line helps their defense, which had some significant holes last year. How many Super Bowls has Champ Bailey or Nnamdi Asomugha won? Deion Sanders wasn't even on Dallas' two best teams. CB is a marquee position in the NFL, but I'd rather have two really good ones, than one "Super" one. Offensive tackle is a marque position in the NFL, too. I would like to see Dallas put a blue chipper in that position, and Smith fits that bill to a tee. Smith is literally a perfect fit and value at 9 for the Cowboys.

Back to the offensive tackle debate:

I get much of my information from Wes Bunting, and I like his stuff. I like his work in the offensive line and with the DBs, especially. He's a pretty solid evaluator, imo. I listen to other sources and form my opinions, too. I look at players as best that I can.

I can't stress how important it is to look at Tyron Smith's low center of gravity and the wide base that he played with at USC. His 6-5 frame helps him sink easier and get into his wide base. This allows him to play with better leverage (with those freakish long arms), than a taller, rangy player like Solder, Carimi, or Castanzo. Also, it allows Smith to redirect better due to playing with great balance. Smith has the athletic ability and length to recover, and from what I've gathered, he got better and better with his technique (especially the foot work) as last season wore on, game by game. This shows that he takes to coaching. It also supports the fact that he is so highly thought of. The Giants may have him at number 1 on their board. They probably do when you look at Smith and then look at the flaws of the other players.

Derek Sherrod is similar in this aspect of his game. He's 6-5 and has really good length. Although, Sherrod played a little high (according to Bunting) at times (due to getting sloppy), he has that ability to sink and play with a wide base in order to better gain leverage and redirect easier , too.

I'd much rather have Smith or Sherrod, because they have the athletic ability and range to reach speed on the edge. You could start both of them out at RT, but both have a future at LT in the NFL, imso. Although, Smith is the superior talent and player, and I would stay at 9 and draft him. Both of these guys play with the type of agility (athleticism) and balance required to redirect in pass protection effectively. Smith's run blocking is better than he's given credit for. His second level and edge blocking is off the charts. He's a great run blocker and better inline in that aspect than some people realize. He did exactly what USC wanted him to do in that aspect.

I should note that Sherrod is up to 321 and could easily play the RT spot for the Cowboys next year, too. He would be a better LT than Doug Free, too, just like Smith. JMO

However, I wouldn't get cute. I'd stay at 9 and draft the superior player.

Tyron Smith
 

silverbear

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realtick;3887416 said:
Carimi is my favorite linemen in this draft as well.

I completely concur about Solder too.

I'm not opposed to taking Tyron Smith. I'm just opposed to nitwits (not you)who actually haven't seen the kid play and form their opinions off of YouTube clips.

Oh, I definitely don't go off of YouTube clips... never watch them, actually... LOL...
 

rash

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SDogo;3887320 said:
More refined players, stronger players (everyone in the NFL will be stronger), complex stunts. Listen I'm not saying the kids lost but he is far from a finished product. He is young by even college standards. Hell, the kid has to even finished growing or developing his body.

I guarantee if some team lines him up as a starter on day 1 this league is going to eat him alive. I like Smith to most rookie QB's. You rush him in there and dont prepare him you may lose him for good. Hand him a clipboard, throw him some weights and let him get his ears wet.

His future is unlimited but the game is bigger then he is ready to handle right now.

I'm sorry, I see what everyone see's on these clips but if you look at his entire body of work he is still simply a project that is a year or two away.

I'm even willing to put down (and someone can put this in quotes) that when the draft rolls around he's going to drop further then people are projecting now. I would not be shocked at all if he ends up in the 18-23 range.

:bow: couldn't have said it any better.

agree 100 percent.
 

silverbear

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TheCount;3887435 said:
I hope you realize the iro...



DAMN!

:laugh2:

I knew you'd be reading this thread, and what your reaction would be (you and 50 or 60 others in here)... beat you to it, you dirty, rotten bastidge...

:D

OK, being serious for just a moment here, I have for several years tried to stick to reasonable discussion when it comes to the draft... I don't let it annoy me when folks disagree with me, when it comes to this subject I figure everybody's got a right to their own opinion (even if they're wrong)... I just know what my personal model for players at each position is, and I look for those kinds of players... then I look for players within that shorter list who I think fit what I perceive as the team's needs best, and those become my pet cats...

So unless you share my profile for offensive linemen (for example), and unless you more or less agree with what I see as their most pressing needs on the OL, naturally you wouldn't like the same players I do...

So basically, I'm confident in my own brilliance, secure enough that I don't take offense when some poor, simpleminded schlub doesn't have the native wit and perspicacity to agree with my obviously superior take on things...

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...
 

28 Joker

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Tyron Smith: Southern Cal (6050, 307) (Arm length 36 3/8)
Despite playing the 2010 season around 285-pounds, anchor strength was never a big question in my mind when breaking down tape of Smith. And the two main reasons why was because he possessed the flexibility to sit into his stance and he also displayed the kind of elite length to consistently gain leverage on contact with his hands. The guy is only going to continue to naturally mature and get stronger, but when you have a lineman with his kind of length and natural athleticism, you can’t help but think he’s going to mature into one of the better left tackles in the league with some time.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Behind-the-Measurements-Height-vs-Arm-Length-6572.html

According to Bunting, anchor strength wasn't an issue with a 285 Smith at USC. However, that certainly isn't the case with Nate Solder or Anthony Castonzo.

Again, Derek Sherrod is 321 now, and Gabe Carimi was 314 at the combine. Not only is Sherrod the superior LT prospect and player (IMO), he looks like a better RT prospect for Dallas, if you add Sherrod's athletic ability, skill set, and size into the equation.

Space will not be Carimi's friend in the NFL, much like Colombo. Is Carimi going to have the same pop as he did in college, because his calling card is being an inline, power run blocker. If he was listed as 327 at Wisconsin, is that weight loss going to take his calling card away, power. If he doesn't have his power, what does he have? Again, this is not a player who will excel in space (run or pass). Carimi doesn't have the agility or range to block NFL speed off the left edge, imo, and will struggle with speed off the right edge. I see a bust factor in him. If he can't play RT, where is he going to play?

Ryan Clady (picked 12 overall by Denver) had top end length, too. He weighed in at the combine at 309. He was All Pro his second year. He hurt his kee playing basketball.

Micheal Oher had really short arms, and he was 309 at the combine. Again, he was picked in late round one and started double digit games for the Ravens at RT and played every snap. He played 4 or 5 games at LT. Oher was from Ole Miss.

Look at those 36 3/8 inch arms for Tyron Smith. His length is off the charts. Plus, he has like 11 inch hands. He is an athletic freak.
 

AKATheRake

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silverbear;3887508 said:
Oh, I definitely don't go off of YouTube clips... never watch them, actually... LOL...

Even if you did. It's more research and substantiated information he has ever come to these threads with in the last month.

All he has is remarks and the propensity to disagree with anything that go's against his 100% opinion based posts.

But he'll claim it's all the other poster with just an opinion and no fact.

Call names and run to the sarcastic approach to circle around another posters well based idea's.

An interesting individual who uses that "youtube" remark quite often throughout the days of the last few weeks.
 

AKATheRake

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SDogo;3887320 said:
More refined players, stronger players (everyone in the NFL will be stronger), complex stunts. Listen I'm not saying the kids lost but he is far from a finished product. He is young by even college standards. Hell, the kid has to even finished growing or developing his body.

I guarantee if some team lines him up as a starter on day 1 this league is going to eat him alive. I like Smith to most rookie QB's. You rush him in there and dont prepare him you may lose him for good. Hand him a clipboard, throw him some weights and let him get his ears wet.

His future is unlimited but the game is bigger then he is ready to handle right now.

I'm sorry, I see what everyone see's on these clips but if you look at his entire body of work he is still simply a project that is a year or two away.

I'm even willing to put down (and someone can put this in quotes) that when the draft rolls around he's going to drop further then people are projecting now. I would not be shocked at all if he ends up in the 18-23 range.

It's not possible to explain it any better and objectively than this.

Thank you kindly!
 

Sarge

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bbgun;3886523 said:
If they truly "loved" him, they wouldn't let that leak out. More pre-draft smoke.

I hope you're right, quite frankly.
 

Woods

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41gy#;3887361 said:
Broaddus tweet:

BryanBroaddus The more I study DEs Cam Jordan and JJ Watt..the more that OT Tyron Smith becomes a better selection for the Cowboys at 9. :)


http://twitter.com/CowboysNation1

I know you'd like Smith at 9, but in case JJ decides to trade back, I think Sherrod would be pretty good as well. Clearly, he may not have the immense upside as Smith, but I think he may be a guy who you could plug in quickly.


I'm more wary of Solder and Costanzo than Smith and Sherrod.
 

burmafrd

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I respect SDOGO, but I have heard guys like Ross Tucker who played O line say that they think Smith can be a first game starter.
 

YosemiteSam

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The only offensive lineman I would be willing to take at #9 is Smith. If we can't get Smith or another top 5 sliding to the #9 spot, I'm all for trading back to around 13-17.
 

TheSport78

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nyc;3887658 said:
The only offensive lineman I would be willing to take at #9 is Smith. If we can't get Smith or another top 5 sliding to the #9 spot, I'm all for trading back to around 13-17.

The only team we could trade back with and still land Smith would be the Minnesota Vikings. The problem is, they don't have a 3rd round pick. We could however, pull off a trade like this with them:

Dallas gives 1st rounder (#9) and 3rd rounder (#71) for Minnesota's 1st rounder (#12) and 2nd rounder (#43)

We could then trade down in the 2nd if Jerry wanted to re-coup our 3rd rounder and pick up an extra 4th. Just something to think about. Minnesota would either want a WR like Julio Jones or a QB like Cam Newton. What you guys go for that?
 
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