Twitter: Competition Committee says Dez caught it **merged**

[blindzebra]

You can't just keep making things up. You've been called out many times for this.

Where in the rules does it say that a player going to the ground can perform ANY act?

Where in the rules does it say he can't?

 

[DogFace]

Blandino said the same thing I just said and have been saying. According to him a receiver can’t perform all parts if a receiver is going to the ground in the process of making a catch. Going to the ground occurs in one piece. That explanation from Blandino was from several years ago. He’s explained the catch play numerous times. His explanations are always a little different but they’re basically the same thing.

He’s always maintained if the receiver is going to the ground during the process of making the catch they must survive the ground with the ball. In other explanations Blandino made it more clear that steps, lunges, changing hands with the ball doesn’t matter if a receiver is going to the ground during the catch process, they must survive the ground with the ball.

No. That is clearly not what he said. At all. Not even close. I’m not sure what you’re listening to.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...00000246515/Calvin-Johnson-rule-strikes-again


Blandino on the Calvin Johnson play in the video:
“If you can perform all parts-in that order-you have a catch. If —NOT— and you’re going to the ground you have to maintain possession.”
“He did not have both feet down prior to the reach so this is all one process.”
Johnson was very clearly going to the ground the entire time. This says very plainly if he would’ve had two feet down it would NOT have been all one process. One process going to the ground. Rather it would’ve been part 3 of the catch process completed WHILE he was going to the ground.

It’s very clear. Plain English. I’m really not sure if you listened how you got what you got. Which is not what he said. At all.

 

[BlindFaith]

You are right. I just watched it again a second time. It looks similar to the Ertz play.

Dez's play is somewhere between the Calvin play and the Thomas play. Dez was caught it in the air, landed and took a couple of steps (while going to the ground) and then reached for the end zone.

It is clear the NFL is treating steps taken while going to the ground differently than steps taken by a player that caught the ball while running. I am not sure I see anything like this in the rules, but that is the position they have been taking.

But I guess the question then is, what does a receiver that jumps in the air and catches a ball need to do to establish himself as a runner? I don't think this was ever clear from previous rules or the new rules. If the receiver catches the ball while running, a few steps and a reach will do, but if the receiver jumps and then comes down with the ball, when do we consider such receiver a runner?

This is the key. They have been trending towards basically nothing. That if you are falling you really can't become a runner. Makes sense. Now you just have to hold on to the ball. The only "act" allowed is one that interrupts a player's fall. Bracing, regaining balance, gathering themselves. This is the highly judgmental part of the current rule.

 

[DogFace]

Blandino said the same thing I just said and have been saying. According to him a receiver can’t perform all parts if a receiver is going to the ground in the process of making a catch. Going to the ground occurs in one piece. That explanation from Blandino was from several years ago. He’s explained the catch play numerous times. His explanations are always a little different but they’re basically the same thing.

He’s always maintained if the receiver is going to the ground during the process of making the catch they must survive the ground with the ball. In other explanations Blandino made it more clear that steps, lunges, changing hands with the ball doesn’t matter if a receiver is going to the ground during the catch process, they must survive the ground with the ball.

I really can’t believe you’re saying that. You’re either incapable of hearing it because of denial or your lying.
That’s not what he said.

I also typed out what he said. With the words emalhaized that need to be so you can understand what the others already admit. You can compete the 3 parts while going to the ground.

Use your head please!!

 

[Bleedblue1111]

Maintaining possession through the contact of the ground for receiver ruled going to the ground during the process of making a catch wasn’t the original rule. That didn’t come around until at least 2010 and the Calvin Johnson play.

Yep. I remember when they first started tinkering with the original rule. It's known as the Bert Emmanuel rule. That was brought on by the diving catch. I felt like Calvin's should have been a catch at that time under the rules. Just curious, what did you think?

 

[KJJ]

You are right. I just watched it again a second time. It looks similar to the Ertz play.

Dez's play is somewhere between the Calvin play and the Thomas play. Dez was caught it in the air, landed and took a couple of steps (while going to the ground) and then reached for the end zone.

It is clear the NFL is treating steps taken while going to the ground differently than steps taken by a player that caught the ball while running. I am not sure I see anything like this in the rules, but that is the position they have been taking.

But I guess the question then is, what does a receiver that jumps in the air and catches a ball need to do to establish himself as a runner? I don't think this was ever clear from previous rules or the new rules. If the receiver catches the ball while running, a few steps and a reach will do, but if the receiver jumps and then comes down with the ball, when do we consider such receiver a runner?

The Dez play is similar to the Calvin Johnson play where both players went up and high pointed the football over a defender and lost the football when they contacted the ground. The Julius Thomas play was very different from those plays because like with Ertz his feet were on the ground when he made the catch, he then immediately turned up field to run before falling to the ground.

That established both him and Ertz as runners. When a receiver is falling to the ground during the process of making a catch steps don’t matter because they’re stumbling and falling. This happens all in one piece. They’re going to the ground therefore they have to survive the ground with the football.

 

[BlindFaith]

Where in the rules does it say he can't?

All we got are the 3 case plays to go by.

Time
Brace
Balance

All followed up by a lunge. That is what we have. That is in the rule.

You want to inject everything else a runner can do. That is not how they are teaching this rule or how they are enforcing it. You know, the top secret special sauce stuff that officials are only qualified to understand.

 

[percyhoward]

In his 2013 NFL Total Access segment, "Explaining the Calvin Johnson Rule."

What Blandino would have said, if the reach didn't matter:
"Item 1 is an exception to the catch process, in that it involves a different standard for becoming a runner. A player going to the ground can't perform just ANY act and become a runner. You must have control, two feet down, and then remain upright long enough. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground. Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not remain upright long enough, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."

What Blandino actually said:
"We've worked really hard to educate people in terms of the catch process...The process of the catch is a three-part process: control, two feet down, and then have the ball long enough to perform an act common to the game. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground. Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."


On 1/11/15 Game Day Final, when asked whether Bryant's reach for the goal line could be considered an act common to the game (football move).

What Blandino would have said, if the reach didn't matter:
"Football moves don't matter when going to the ground, so in order for him to be upright long enough it needs to be more obvious than that -- putting his arm down to brace himself, then lunging for the goal line. This is all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground."

What Blandino actually said:
"We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it needs to be more obvious than that -- reaching the ball out with two hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground."


Obviously, the reach (and the catch process) mattered.

 

[Soth]

The Dez play is similar to the Calvin Johnson play where both players went up and high pointed the football over a defender and lost the football when they contacted the ground. The Julius Thomas play was very different from those plays because like with Ertz his feet were on the ground when he made the catch, he then immediately turned up field to run before falling to the ground.

That established both him and Ertz as runners. When a receiver is falling to the ground during the process of making a catch steps don’t matter because they’re stumbling and falling. This happens all in one piece. They’re going to the ground therefore they have to survive the ground with the football.

I think you just repeated the same stuff you said on your same post. I get how the rule works for a receiver catching the ball while running.

My question was: what does a receiver that jumps into the air and catches a ball need to do to be considered a runner? Clearly, if a receiver jumps, catches a ball, lands, and runs another 80 yards, then that receiver is a runner, right? Ok, so a receiver that jumps and catches a ball CAN become a runner. I get it that you feel strongly that the Dez catch was not a catch, no need to continue repeating it. But let's put that to the side, when does a receiver that jumps in the air and catches a ball become a runner. And where is that defined in the rules applicable in 2014? Simple question.

 

[KJJ]

No. That is clearly not what he said. At all. Not even close. I’m not sure what you’re listening to.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...00000246515/Calvin-Johnson-rule-strikes-again


Blandino on the Calvin Johnson play in the video:
“If you can perform all parts-in that order-you have a catch. If —NOT— and you’re going to the ground you have to maintain possession.”
“He did not have both feet down prior to the reach so this is all one process.”
Johnson was very clearly going to the ground the entire time. This says very plainly if he would’ve had two feet down it would NOT have been all one process. One process going to the ground. Rather it would’ve been part 3 of the catch process completed WHILE he was going to the ground.

It’s very clear. Plain English. I’m really not sure if you listened how you got what you got. Which is not what he said. At all.

You cherry picked one of the many videos where he discussed the catch rule. His explanations and the way he words them have varied over the years which causes fans like you to pounce on them. I’ve posted a video where he pointed out all the things that Dez did that appeared to be football moves to the common fan. He pointed to the steps Dez took, the ball changing hands and the lunge but said he was going to the ground during that entire process, therefore he had to survive the ground with the ball.

He’s made it clear as have others in the officiating community that if a receiver is ruled going to the ground they must complete the process and survive the ground. There’s no way around it. You can spin his wording in that particular video anyway you want but he’s maintained that if a receiver is going to the ground they have to complete the process. If you want to continue arguing this go ahead.

 

[Soth]

This is the key. They have been trending towards basically nothing. That if you are falling you really can't become a runner. Makes sense. Now you just have to hold on to the ball. The only "act" allowed is one that interrupts a player's fall. Bracing, regaining balance, gathering themselves. This is the highly judgmental part of the current rule.

The thing that confuses me is that you can have two feet on the ground while catching a ball and also be going to the ground. Jumping and catching the ball in the air is not the only way to fall to the ground. A runner could stumble, catch a ball while going to the ground, and then take a couple of steps (while going to the ground) and they would call it a catch. It is clear that blandino thinks these two scenarios are different, but do the rules specify that there is a different threshold for someone going to the ground after jumping in the air vs someone losing balance while running (or due to contact with a defender) and going to the ground? I would argue that Thomas was already in the process of falling down when he caught the ball. He lost his balance, but managed to secure control and take a couple of steps (while going to the ground).

 

[percyhoward]

Somewhere along the lines they lumped in good catches...2 feet + control, in with what the original rule was intended to govern, which was diving catches at the ground. Yes, it needs to be fixed.

Somewhere along the line, somebody interpreted "goes to the ground" as meaning "starts to fall." That brought in the whole idea of maintaining your balance, which has nothing to do with making a catch.

If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.​

Look at the very next item in the book, Item 2:

Item 2. Sideline Catches.
If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.
​

What would it matter what a player was doing if he was already out of bounds when he started to fall?

 

[KJJ]

I think you just repeated the same stuff you said on your same post. I get how the rule works for a receiver catching the ball while running.

My question was: what does a receiver that jumps into the air and catches a ball need to do to be considered a runner? Clearly, if a receiver jumps, catches a ball, lands, and runs another 80 yards, then that receiver is a runner, right? Ok, so a receiver that jumps and catches a ball CAN become a runner. I get it that you feel strongly that the Dez catch was not a catch, no need to continue repeating it.

I’ve been repeating myself a lot during these debates. Many have been repeating themselves regardless the position they have. When you’ve covered the same argument for three years there’s nothing new you can add to it. It’s causing one poster here to cut and paste the same things over and over. For a receiver to jump in the air, catch the football and come down and become a runner they have to stay on their feet to establish themselves as a runner. Catching the football while stumbling to the ground isn’t establishing yourself as a runner.

They’ve shown many receivers jump in the air, catch the ball land firmly on their feet and begin to run for a touchdown or a long gain. That can’t possibly happen if they’re falling and stumbling to the ground. If their momentum/body lean is taking them to the ground they’re not going to be able to maintain their footing to run 80 yards. It’s pretty simple to tell when a players momentum is causing them to fall to the ground.

 

[BlindFaith]

The thing that confuses me is that you can have two feet on the ground while catching a ball and also be going to the ground. Jumping and catching the ball in the air is not the only way to fall to the ground. A runner could stumble, catch a ball while going to the ground, and then take a couple of steps (while going to the ground) and they would call it a catch. It is clear that blandino thinks these two scenarios are different, but do the rules specify that there is a different threshold for someone going to the ground after jumping in the air vs someone losing balance while running (or due to contact with a defender) and going to the ground? I would argue that Thomas was already in the process of falling down when he caught the ball. He lost his balance, but managed to secure control and take a couple of steps (while going to the ground).

The rule is pretty clear
1. Possession
2. Two feet down
3. If the player is still going to the ground, maintain poessession

If they get two feet down and are not still going to the ground, then make an act common or become a runner or what have you.

 

[BlindFaith]

Somewhere along the line, somebody interpreted "goes to the ground" as meaning "starts to fall."

Yes, the officials.

When you have two feet down you are either upright or falling. Pretty simple really.

 

[percyhoward]

Yes, the officials.

When you have two feet down you are either upright or falling. Pretty simple really.

Look at the very next item in the book, Item 2:

Item 2. Sideline Catches.
If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.

What would it matter what a player was doing if he was already out of bounds when he started to fall?

 

[Bleedblue1111]

Somewhere along the line, somebody interpreted "goes to the ground" as meaning "starts to fall." That brought in the whole idea of maintaining your balance, which has nothing to do with making a catch.

If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.​

Look at the very next item in the book, Item 2:

Item 2. Sideline Catches.
If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.
​

What would it matter what a player was doing if he was already out of bounds when he started to fall?

Good point. Does anyone know when they started holding them to an alternative standard? Was it when Calvin Johnson had a catch taken away for a TD when he was using the ball to pick himself up from the turf in the end zone and lost the ball?

 

[KJJ]

I really can’t believe you’re saying that. You’re either incapable of hearing it because of denial or your lying.
That’s not what he said.

I also typed out what he said. With the words emalhaized that need to be so you can understand what the others already admit. You can compete the 3 parts while going to the ground.

Use your head please!!

You need to use your head and stop trying to stir things up all the time. Listen to this explanation he gave. He repeatedly talked about Dez going to the ground. When a receiver is ruled going to the ground they have to survive the ground it’s the rule!

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-gameday/0ap3000000457053/Dean-Blandino-on-Dez-Bryant-call

 

[Iron_Man]

It is about time the NFL learns what a catch is...

 

[percyhoward]

Good point. Does anyone know when they started holding them to an alternative standard?

Sure. 2015, when they added this sentence to Item 1.

2014
Item 1. Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball...

2015
Item 1. Player Going to the Ground.
A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball...