Ok
@blindzebra ,
@percyhoward and whoever is willing to actually read and answer some questions.
Let's get started. And I'll try to be as simple as possible.
Let's assume for now that there are no case plays. I will address them later, but to start, no case plays. Only the actual rules as written.
1. Do you agree on "the act of catching a pass" and these acts, when completed, equal a catch?
a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Now, here is the rule for a player going to the ground:
Item 1: Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
2. Do you agree that if a player goes to the ground at any point while in the act of catching a pass that they must maintain possession while contacting the ground?
Assuming you answer Yes to both of the above, which is pretty clear you should, then let's get into what this really means.
Lets break down going to the ground.
Prior to completing the act of catching a pass
3. Do you agree that If a player goes to the ground PRIOR to completing the catch process, it means that the player made no act to complete the process other than maintaining contact through the ground?
What this covers are players that simply dive for a ball, make no move whatsoever. Just basically dive and hit the ground. In which case they would have to maintain possession through contacting the ground.
In the act of catching a pass
4. Do you agree that if a player has not already completed all three steps of the act of catching a pass, and are deemed at some point to be going to the ground before the pass is rule completed, that they have to maintain possession through contacting the ground?
What this covers are plays where at some point before the three step act of catching a pass is completed. Example: Lets say before a player can make an act common to the game the are deemed to be gong to the ground. Or it could be that they are deemed to be going to the ground at the time of getting both feet down, or even when they first possess the ball.
After the act of catching a pass
5. Do you agree that if the player had already completed the act of catching a pass and then went to the ground after, that the going to the ground rule would not apply?
So, unless you disagree with points 2 and 4 above, we can rule out any act common to the game being performed while going to the ground that would over rule the going to the ground rule.
6. Do you agree?
So those are the "rules". Now lets move on to our fav, case plays
We can start with
PASSES IN FIELD OF PLAY
A.R. 15.93 Going to the ground, does not complete process
Third-and-5 on A30. Pass over middle is ruled complete at the B45. Replays show that the receiver controlled the ball while going to the ground, but when his upper body hit, the nose of the ball touched the ground and then he lost control of it.
Ruling: Reviewable. Incomplete pass. A’s ball fourth-and-5 on A30. Reset game clock to when the ball hit the ground. Receiver is going to the ground and must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground.
A.R. 15.94 Process complete before going to ground
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass, got both feet completely on the ground and after turning up field was hit, causing him to go to the ground where he lost the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass and down. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30. The receiver had completed the catch before the contact by the defender so he was not going to the ground in the process of making the catch. When he hit the ground he was down by contact.
Those two are pretty straight forward.
7. Do you agree?
Now, to your favorite.
A.R. 15.95 Act common to game
Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30. In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.
If we have already determined per the actual rules that no act common to the game can be performed during the act of catching a pass once a player has been deemed to be going to the ground. Then either your interpretation of this rule is completely wrong where you assume any act can be inserted to the "time element" required. Because if it were that way, then the going to the ground rule we just went over would be incorrect. And you have clearly said case plays only clarify the rule, they are not rules themselves. Right? Because the case play clearly indicates that the player was still in the act of catching a pass and was deemed to be going to the ground while trying to complete the process.
8. Do you agree that ONLY a time element concept plus a lunge is what this case play is trying to clarify? Because if it was intended to apply to any act common to the game, then it would be clearly canceling out the actual rule of going to the ground.
Now, your probably blowing up with rage right now, and are already trying to come up with your spin. But I will continue on.
For most, that are rationally reading this, are probably more confused than ever. Everything you've been told from the PR/Conspiracy group just doesn't hold water now. But you are still probably confused by what a time element is then. Great question.
Let me give you the case plays they don't want to ever talk about. The case plays that define the Time Element that is both in in AR 15 and in the rule itself 8.1.c (maintains control of the ball long enough) (It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.) Both clearly time related.
RULE 8 FORWARD PASS, BACKWARD PASS, FUMBLE
FORWARD PASS—CATCH/NO CATCH
A.R. 8.8 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE OR INCOMPLETE PASS
Second-and-5 on A35. A1 throws a forward pass to A2 at the A40. A2 dives for the ball and controls the ball in the air. The first thing to hit the ground is the point of the ball. a) A2 briefly loses control of the ball when it hits the ground; or b) A2 never loses control of the ball. Rulings: a) Third-and-5 on A35. Incomplete pass. b) First-and-10 on A40.
A.R. 8.9 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 who dives and controls the ball while airborne at the A38, but the ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Second-and-10 on A30. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground. 32 A.R.
8.10 GOING TO THE GROUND—INCOMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 sends him across the goal line and to the ground in the end zone. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Second-and-10 on B25. The pass is incomplete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and did not maintain possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground. A.R.
8.11 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on A30. A1 throws a pass to A2 at the A45 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. The contact by B1 causes A2 to go to the ground where he maintains control of the ball.
Ruling: First-and-10 on A45. The pass is complete, as the receiver went to the ground in the process of making the catch and maintained possession of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground. A.R.
The previous case plays, all going to the ground, are pretty straightforward?
9. Do you agree?
8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he
braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand
and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.
A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2
keeps his balance, gets both feet down,
and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.
Those last two, the other side do not want to touch with a 10 foot pole. And here's why, they define the acts that can be used to fulfill the Time Element, which is the only act common to the game a player can perform while going to the ground during the act of catching a pass.
Those two acts are braces + lunge and keeps his balance + lunge. So now we know what AR 15 is really trying to explain. These two specific use case clarify both the Time act in the actual rule itself and the other case play, AR 15, that refers to the act common to the game that a player can perform while going to the ground.
So if you are still hanging onto any act common to the game can complete the catch process while a player is going to the ground, then answer this. Which you have yet to answer despite multiple requests to do so.
10. If any act common to the game can be used, then why not one single mention of any act other than the two which directly relate to interrupting the fall as the only acts to satisfy the time element?
They clearly had time and the where for all to include other case plays talking about going to the ground, but not one of them mention any other act.
So those are the rules. Fully transparent and fully explained. And fully support why it was not a catch.
Now, to the sure to be fired back arguments.
A. Dez was not going to the ground until after he completed an act common to the game.
If and when a player goes to the ground is a judgment call. But in this case he clearly was going to the ground from the point he started to come back after being in the air.
B. Dez was tripped and prohibited him from completing the act.
Not important. Going to the ground is (with or without contact with another player)
C. Dez had already went to the ground when his first foot touched.
Not what going to the ground means. Going to the ground is the players body ending up on the ground, not a foot.
D. Dez made a lunge.
Another judgment call. A judgement call to say if a player had interrupted the fall or as the case plays say, Brace or Keeps his Balance. It was clear that he never did either prior to the lunge/reach.
E. It's a conspiracy or a PR move.
If you rationally read what I posted, it is clear that the right call was made. Yes, there are a couple of points that are judgment calls. In my eyes, they were not that close. There are far better examples of where it is very boarder line. The Fitz catch and the Thomas catch. Those two plays could have really gone either way. I would have actually ruled the Fitz catch as incomplete, but I completely understand why they did rule it complete.
So, hopefully people with read this. And understand the rule and ignore the white noise. Form your own opinion based on facts. If the other side answers my questions, we can continue to debate each item. And I will happily apply the same logic as I just did.
