Conclusion to VT vs. Bledsoe

[RCowboyFan]

2) If you look at Bledsoe's career you can see he's only prone to sacks when he's had a poor line. Look at his sack rates for the first 6 years of his career in NE. His sack rate was right in line with what he was doing the first 6 games of this year- about 1 in 15 attempts which is really quite good. You see his sack rate spike up his last few years in NE when his LT Bruce Armstrong was hobbled by injury and then retired. Buffalo thought Bledsoe was the problem with sacks but this year the combination of Losman and Holcomb are taking sacks at a 30%+ higher rate per attempt than when DB was there in 2004. The fact is Buffalo had one of the very worst OL's in the league while he was there.

If you don't protect Bledsoe he will suck. If you do, he will perform well and is not overly sack prone. His fall off in the 2nd half this year can be directly traced to far worse pass protection. As you suggested, I looked it up.

They are stats and then they are lies like they say. By combining a rookie basically with veteran you are adding up as one QB.

But to do a Fair comparison with Holcomb only, since he is veteran. Kelly has been sacked every 13.5 times he attempted to throw this year

While Bledsoe was sacked 12.1 attempts last year, which ironically is one of the years he was sacked less seems like, probably because they used McGahee more.

Second, Bledsoe became Sack prone once BP left NE. I think when BP was there, according to Bledsoe he would in practice be constantly at his back yelling to get rid of it etc. Which probably attributed to less sacks when BP was there. You can see the sack total increase each year after 97, since BP left in 96? or was it 97? I doubt thats just a co-incidence.

Now other hand, if you take Tom Brady, you see during his first year, he was sacked a lot, again Rookie factor, But since then it has steadily decreased and its amazing how less he was sacked this year, considering they lot their LT and half of their OL to injuries.

So look it up again.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741 - Tom Brady
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493000 - JP Losman
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1624 - Kelly Holcomb
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1041 - Drew Bledsoe

 

[RCowboyFan]

I don't dispute any of this. I've posted the same since before we signed the guy. That's the point. Why do we sign a QB and lock ourselves into him if the limitations are so obviouse? Bledsoe is an exceptional passer if he has no pressure. That is not even a thing that can be questioned IMO. However, when will the NFL ever be a league where by you can count on players not getting injured etc? I just hate the fact that we are handcuffed in such a way and we've done it to ourselves.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But Bledsoe was succeeding with FA as his LT, that's the point. Was he not?

We did have a decided and severe lack of depth at LT and RT. Tucker had never played the position, not in college or pro's. LT is just below QB in it's importance to many offenses, usually you lose your starter and if it's for more than a few games you're done. Look at the vaunted KC Chiefs offense this year. They lose Roaf for 6 games, lose 3 of them, 7-3 with him in there.

OK, but the point here is that we had options. We elected to cast the dye with a QB we knew had this type of limitation. A track record of 12 season no less.

I honestly don't believe there is anything that can be done for the situation at this point but, those who paint Bledsoe as a Pro Bowl QB or what have you are failing to fill in all the blanks. He is a QB with flaws. For us to win, we are going to have to compensate and be extremely lucky in the process.

 

[superpunk]

I don't dispute any of this. I've posted the same since before we signed the guy. That's the point. Why do we sign a QB and lock ourselves into him if the limitations are so obviouse? Bledsoe is an exceptional passer if he has no pressure. That is not even a thing that can be questioned IMO. However, when will the NFL ever be a league where by you can count on players not getting injured etc? I just hate the fact that we are handcuffed in such a way and we've done it to ourselves.

But it can be done. It was being done before Flo went down. Unfortunately, BP has shown a complete inability to draft Olinemen in his tenure in Dallas, and so we have zero depth along our Oline. If that is fixed, Bledsoe can be dynamic. That's already been proved. I am not a fan of Bledsoe's. I hate watching him, and my wife hates watching me watch him. The official count of times the phrase "THROW THE DAMN BALL!!!" has been uttered in my house this year is astronomical. But I can see by watching, that given the proper protection, Drew Bledsoe can be a very dangerous QB for the Dallas Cowboys.

 

[RCowboyFan]

You could also look at the type of offense they ran when Holcombe was in there. Being a dismayed fantasy owner of Willis McGahee, I would often tune into Bills games to see how he was doing. When Holcombe came in there, the offense morphed into the dink and dunk show. He was throwing 5 yard outs and swing passes to RBs all day long. Not that it's a bad thing, but they ran an offense designed to get the ball out of the QBs hands immediately.

You're right, stats can be made to say anything. The only REAL way to know how to interpret them is to actually watch the games in which the stats are formed. Having watched all 16 games of VT and DB, I can honestly say that Drew is 10 times the QB Vinny was. This offense, which struggled running the ball no matter what, was much more scary with Flo in, than with Flo out.

And you think, BP hasn't designed the offense based on Dink and Dunks most of the time? Do you remember what Parcells said about Drew Bledsoe getting sacked too often, when they signed him, as to how he will avoid that? Drew simply doesn't like to dink and dunk, and hence takes unneccessary sacks etc. Its an admirable quality, in that he is curageous. But at the same time he puts the OL and hence the whole Offense in a bind.

Now as far as Vinny vs Bledsoe, yeah, I would rather go with Bledsoe than Vinny. Thats not an argument I would make. But if you give me Vinny of 98 or was it 99? Anyway the year when he had the best year, no doubt I rather take him. But then you could say that about Bledsoe too.

But really, Vinny and Bledsoe are not all that different, i.e., they both cause the team to lose or make critical mistakes in their own way,except Vinny is too old to play QB in NFL anymore.

 

[superpunk]

Second, Bledsoe became Sack prone once BP left NE. I think when BP was there, according to Bledsoe he would in practice be constantly at his back yelling to get rid of it etc.

So why can't he be less sack prone here? It's already been shown the difference in his sack ratios with and without Flozell. If our depth issues along the Oline can be fixed (granted, BP has given me NO confidence that it can be done, but IF...) then he can be very good.

 

[RCowboyFan]

But it can be done. It was being done before Flo went down. Unfortunately, BP has shown a complete inability to draft Olinemen in his tenure in Dallas, and so we have zero depth along our Oline. If that is fixed, Bledsoe can be dynamic. That's already been proved. I am not a fan of Bledsoe's. I hate watching him, and my wife hates watching me watch him. The official count of times the phrase "THROW THE DAMN BALL!!!" has been uttered in my house this year is astronomical. But I can see by watching, that given the proper protection, Drew Bledsoe can be a very dangerous QB for the Dallas Cowboys.

Well, thats why Rob Johnson survived in NFL for the length time he survived. And same with Bledsoe. People (NFL), gets mesmerized by the great throws they make when they have time, and ignore all the other negatives they bring. Same as Jeff George or any other great "Potential" Qbs NFL has seen, that never amounted to anything great other than maybe stats.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But it can be done. It was being done before Flo went down. Unfortunately, BP has shown a complete inability to draft Olinemen in his tenure in Dallas, and so we have zero depth along our Oline. If that is fixed, Bledsoe can be dynamic. That's already been proved. I am not a fan of Bledsoe's. I hate watching him, and my wife hates watching me watch him. The official count of times the phrase "THROW THE DAMN BALL!!!" has been uttered in my house this year is astronomical. But I can see by watching, that given the proper protection, Drew Bledsoe can be a very dangerous QB for the Dallas Cowboys.

It can be done for a time. Never long enough to win a Championship.

I will be honest with you. I like Bledsoe, as a person and even as a pro player. I hate him as a QB but I honestly like the guy. He does things in a way that I feel is admirable. I just keep coming back to the fact that he's a guy who has played in a league with a lot of very smart people. In 12 years, nobody has been able to design an offense that he could win it all in. Granted you must have some luck to win a championship but to me, that is all the more reason you don't pigeon hole yourself with the kind of QB you can use. I guess I just believe that with all the smart guys in this league, somebody would have already found a way to design an offense that worked with Bledsoe. It hasn't happened yet and I don't think it's going to.

 

[superpunk]

And you think, BP hasn't designed the offense based on Dink and Dunks most of the time? Do you remember what Parcells said about Drew Bledsoe getting sacked too often, when they signed him, as to how he will avoid that? Drew simply doesn't like to dink and dunk, and hence takes unneccessary sacks etc. Its an admirable quality, in that he is curageous. But at the same time he puts the OL and hence the whole Offense in a bind.

Now as far as Vinny vs Bledsoe, yeah, I would rather go with Bledsoe than Vinny. Thats not an argument I would make. But if you give me Vinny of 98 or was it 99? Anyway the year when he had the best year, no doubt I rather take him. But then you could say that about Bledsoe too.

But really, Vinny and Bledsoe are not all that different, i.e., they both cause the team to lose or make critical mistakes in their own way,except Vinny is too old to play QB in NFL anymore.

Hey, at this point, he is what he is, there's no changing him. I'm not happy about it, but I know he can be a successful QB with a good Oline and Bill Parcells. We've got one of those things, and seemed to have both early on. I'm anxious to see which of them gets addressed next year.

(BP, I'm starting to get REALLY PISSED about you stringing us out like this. I'm putting you on notice!) ;-)

 

[RCowboyFan]

So why can't he be less sack prone here? It's already been shown the difference in his sack ratios with and without Flozell. If our depth issues along the Oline can be fixed (granted, BP has given me NO confidence that it can be done, but IF...) then he can be very good.

You will see, next year, it wont matter if Flozell is there. I will bet by this time next year, you will be saying Flozell is crappy LT. Teams will now know how to attack Bledsoe, with Cowboys that is, and it will never be a good going for Bledsoe, now unless BP starts yelling at Bledsoe to get rid of the ball.

 

[RCowboyFan]

Hey, at this point, he is what he is, there's no changing him. I'm not happy about it, but I know he can be a successful QB with a good Oline and Bill Parcells. We've got one of those things, and seemed to have both early on. I'm anxious to see which of them gets addressed next year.

(BP, I'm starting to get REALLY PISSED about you stringing us out like this. I'm putting you on notice!) ;-)

Amen to that.

 

[Doomsday101]

So why can't he be less sack prone here? It's already been shown the difference in his sack ratios with and without Flozell. If our depth issues along the Oline can be fixed (granted, BP has given me NO confidence that it can be done, but IF...) then he can be very good.

Your wasting your time. The O-Line is great it is Bledsoe who is the problem at least in the eyes of some around here. I'm watching defenders blow by our guys but that is Bledsoe fault I see our guys getting stuffed in the running game but that is Bledsoe as well. Dallas O-line has been a problem and not just the past 2 years it has been a while since Dallas offensive line proved they could even block in short yardage or goal line situations.

 

[superpunk]

I will be honest with you. I like Bledsoe, as a person and even as a pro player. I hate him as a QB but I honestly like the guy. He does things in a way that I feel is admirable. I just keep coming back to the fact that he's a guy who has played in a league with a lot of very smart people. In 12 years, nobody has been able to design an offense that he could win it all in. Granted you must have some luck to win a championship but to me, that is all the more reason you don't pigeon hole yourself with the kind of QB you can use. I guess I just believe that with all the smart guys in this league, somebody would have already found a way to design an offense that worked with Bledsoe. It hasn't happened yet and I don't think it's going to.

Only one man has, he's the current coach of our team, and the two of them were one Desmond Howard out of his mind performance away from winning it all. Hopefully he can fix the problems next year, and we can have the same result, except without the crazy returns.

 

[superpunk]

You will see, next year, it wont matter if Flozell is there. I will bet by this time next year, you will be saying Flozell is crappy LT. Teams will now know how to attack Bledsoe, with Cowboys that is, and it will never be a good going for Bledsoe, now unless BP starts yelling at Bledsoe to get rid of the ball.

How can you say that? This team was completely different without Flozell. When I can point to a singular event like that, and say "Look at this. Look at when this happened, and look at their performance before and after this event. Look how different they are." Then I have to believe that Flo's injury played a HUGE part in Bledsoe's falloff. It is only logical.

 

[Billy Bullocks]

the comparison with VT and Bledsoe was a year apart with some of the same parts in place..so they could not be compared to aikman...who is 5-6 years removed with no other same parts except 2 o-lineman with 5-6 years more on them

so I do not see your point at all... unless it is you simply do not want it to be so

My point is that numbers only tell part of the story. Testy had a line that was more capable of protecting him, while Bledsoe didnt. Bledsoe had Glenn, Testy didnt, but like someone pointed out, Vinny didnt do much better with Glenn.

I like stats alot...for baseball. You can't only use stats to compare players. Bledsoe is a better leader, with a better arm, and finnished with a better record.

VInny threw away plenty of games last year with his limp armed out routes.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Only one man has, he's the current coach of our team, and the two of them were one Desmond Howard out of his mind performance away from winning it all. Hopefully he can fix the problems next year, and we can have the same result, except without the crazy returns.

I think that you have to qualify that. That was a different time in the NFL and what's more, they didn't win it. The window of opportunity is 2 years with Bledsoe, IMO. In two more seasons, we have to get to a place where we are solid enough on the OL to be able to provide a clean pocket for Bledsoe. I just don't see it unless one Columbo is much better then I think we all anticipate.

 

[RCowboyFan]

How can you say that? This team was completely different without Flozell. When I can point to a singular event like that, and say "Look at this. Look at when this happened, and look at their performance before and after this event. Look how different they are." Then I have to believe that Flo's injury played a HUGE part in Bledsoe's falloff. It is only logical.

Because, like someone said, if you don't learn from history, you are bound to repeat the mistakes made previously. I have watched Bledsoe a lot, even before he came to Dallas. One thing constant is his holding the ball and sometimes just getting into sacks. Its one thing if he did it a rookie season or 2nd season, and there is a chance of correcting the issue. But when he has played 12 seasons in NFL, but still does that, then its obvious, he is what he is.

Now, he might not get sacked 49 times next year with Flozell, but maybe around 35-40, if OL really plays well. But I bet the sack ratio is around 12 or so. Hey you can feed me crow, like I have been saying to anyone who thinks I am wrong, when I am proved wrong.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Statistics don't tell the entire story. Furthermore, you can't select statistics that only support your argument and ignore the stats that reject it. Plenty of people here raised statistics that rejected your theory, but you didn't acknowledge those stats. This is why you have no credibility in regards to this issue.

In short, you are acting like Terrel Owens (only you are right and everyone is wrong, Me Against the World)

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Because, like someone said, if you don't learn from history, you are bound to repeat the mistakes made previously. I have watched Bledsoe a lot, even before he came to Dallas. One thing constant is his holding the ball and sometimes just getting into sacks. Its one thing if he did it a rookie season or 2nd season, and there is a chance of correcting the issue. But when he has played 12 seasons in NFL, but still does that, then its obvious, he is what he is.

Now, he might not get sacked 49 times next year with Flozell, but maybe around 35-40, if OL really plays well. But I bet the sack ratio is around 12 or so. Hey you can feed me crow, like I have been saying to anyone who thinks I am wrong, when I am proved wrong.

This argument is so foolish to me. I don't like Bledsoe or Testaverde yet I feel like I have to defend Bledsoe because he is being compared to Vinny? I agree with everything you have said. You forgot to add that Bledsoe eyes receivers. He always has and is known for that. This is why he still struggles with interceptions. It's because DB's can see him eyeing particular receivers. But be fair, Drew has played so much better than Vinny did last year.

 

[RCowboyFan]

This argument is so foolish to me. I don't like Bledsoe or Testaverde yet I feel like I have to defend Bledsoe because he is being compared to Vinny? I agree with everything you have said. You forgot to add that Bledsoe eyes receivers. He always has and is known for that. This is why he still struggles with interceptions. It's because DB's can see him eyeing particular receivers. But be fair, Drew has played so much better than Vinny did last year.

Agreed, I have said so too. But I only differ on so much better part, due the D that Vinny had to play with and Recievers he had to play with and almost no running game. But at the end of year, even with Running game, he stunk, so thats the damning part for Vinny.