Congrats to Hitchens and Wilson

[OmerV]

If you think Brady James was better than you already lost the argument.

Than HItchens? I think he was, and I think a lot of people would believe Brady James was better. Even if you think Hitchens is better, surely you can't view that as a runaway, slam dunk, no brainer in his favor.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Tackles can be made by ANY player by touching a guy down, so why doesn't every defensive player have 140+ tackles? Or are you under the impression that the NFL only allows Jaylon Smith to touch guys down?

And, again, I said tackles is not a stand alone stat, and that there are other factors that matter, but to have more tackles than all but 5 players in the entire NFL obviously suggests a lot more is going on than just touching a lot of guys down and only making tackles 12 yards downfield. It's laughable that you would suggest that is the only reason he had so many tackles.

At worst he was average to solid this season. To say he was "spectacularly bad" is a fabricated narrative. You appear to be one of those posters that can only see things in extremes - either great or horrible, with nothing in between - and that's almost never where reality lies. It's really more where the posters prone to melodrama and soap opera prefer to live.

Does it really have to be explained to you why linebackers typically have the higher tackle totals in contrast to the other defensive positions on the field, lol? Even more specifically the MIKE or WILL in a 43. You’re being obtuse at this point.

Add the simple fact that LVE missed a lot of time last year and Jaylon played ~43% more snaps than Sean Lee.

What’s laughable is that you think you can draw conclusions from raw tackle totals whether it be making tackles 12 yards down the field or 1 yard past the LOS.

THAT IS THE POINT GENIUS.

You can’t draw conclusions off raw tackle totals, so to say “oh, well he must not be that bad because he has the 6th most tackles in the league” is simple-minded analysis.

 

[Sydla]

I’d take the solid but unspectacular Hitchens over spectacularly bad Jaylon any day, all day, and twice on Sundays.

Your hatred for Smith is making you say silly things. Did you watch Hitchens this year? He was actually worse than Smith.............. AND he gets paid more.

I get criticizing Smith but when you argue you'd rather have the lesser player who is making more money, that's kind of bizarre.

 

[OmerV]

Does it really have to be explained to you why linebackers typically have the higher tackle totals in contrast to the other defensive positions on the field, lol? Even more specifically the MIKE or WILL in a 43. You’re being obtuse at this point.

Add the simple fact that LVE missed a lot of time last year and Jaylon played ~43% more snaps than Sean Lee.

What’s laughable is that you think you can draw conclusions from raw tackle totals whether it be making tackles 12 yards down the field or 1 yard past the LOS.

That’s precisely the point genius. You can’t draw conclusions, so to say “oh, well he must not be that bad because he has the 6th most tackles in the league” is simple-minded analysis.

Of course LBs have higher tackle counts than most positions (SS is also in the mix), but that doesn't change the fact that only 5 players had more tackles (4 LBs and 1 SS). You act like that's just an ordinary thing, but obviously its not.

And you act like you can explain it away by saying a player being touched down counts, as if a player being touched down by any other defensive player doesn't count toward their tackle totals.

But, the most ridiculous thing is you are still hitching your entire argument with me on the notion that I am saying tackles is the only stat that matters in evaluating a player, and I have clearly and repeatedly said otherwise.

I have also clearly said I agree Smith had less impact in 2019 than 2018, and have also clearly indicated he did not have a stellar season dispite the tackles. I clearly, and specifically said the tackles at least show an average to solid season rather than the "spectacularly bad" season you indicated. No matter how you slice it, a player can't be "spectacularly bad" and still make 14% of the tackles his team recorded for the season.

And the NFL agrees. Tackles are one of the measurements teams use in evaluating players, and the seasons they have. Not the only one, or a stand alone stat, but certainly a key one.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Your hatred for Smith is making you say silly things. Did you watch Hitchens this year? He was actually worse than Smith.............. AND he gets paid more.

I get criticizing Smith but when you argue you'd rather have the lesser player who is making more money, that's kind of bizarre.

Right, and your Golden Domer fandom isn’t impacting your perspective on Jaylon.

In terms of play on the field, I’d much rather have the consistent player than what Jaylon showed out there last year. He was an absolute liability out there.

But please, spare me the “it’s the scheme” mantra before you even start.

 

[OmerV]

Your hatred for Smith is making you say silly things. Did you watch Hitchens this year? He was actually worse than Smith.............. AND he gets paid more.

I get criticizing Smith but when you argue you'd rather have the lesser player who is making more money, that's kind of bizarre.

I think he's blinded by the fact Hitchens found himself on a Super Bowl team, and at the same time one of those posters prone to exaggeration and melodrama. I think most of us felt Smith wasn't as impactful in 2019 as 2018, but "spectacularly bad" is a gross exaggeration. He didn't suddenly become barely capable of even being an NFL special teams player, he just wasn't as outstanding as the season before.

 

[OmerV]

Right, and your Golden Domer fandom isn’t impacting your perspective on Jaylon.

In terms of play on the field, I’d much rather have the consistent player than what Jaylon showed out there last year. He was an absolute liability out there.

But please, spare me the “it’s the scheme” mantra before you even start.

That kind of comment further proves your tendency toward soap opera than toward reasonable discussion.

 

[Sydla]

Right, and your Golden Domer fandom isn’t impacting your perspective on Jaylon.

In terms of play on the field, I’d much rather have the consistent player than what Jaylon showed out there last year. He was an absolute liability out there.

But please, spare me the “it’s the scheme” mantra before you even start.

I just said I get criticizing him for his play. I have said multiple times he did not play well in 2019. Frankly, if he doesn't bounce back in 2020, the Cowboys have a real issue on their hands because they have two more years before they could get out from under him at a reasonable rate.

So if you think Smith is overrated and you want Smith off the team, fine, I get it. But when you say you'd rather have a worse LB who makes more money, it makes your stance a bit strange.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Of course LBs have higher tackle counts than most positions (SS is also in the mix), but that doesn't change the fact that only 5 players had more tackles (4 LBs and 1 SS). You act like that's just an ordinary thing, but obviously its not.

And you act like you can explain it away by saying a player being touched down counts, as if a player being touched down by any other defensive player doesn't count toward their tackle totals.

But, the most ridiculous thing is you are still hitching your entire argument with me on the notion that I am saying tackles is the only stat that matters in evaluating a player, and I have clearly and repeatedly said otherwise.

I have also clearly said I agree Smith had less impact in 2019 than 2018, and have also clearly indicated he did not have a stellar season dispite the tackles. I clearly, and specifically said the tackles at least show an average to solid season rather than the "spectacularly bad" season you indicated. No matter how you slice it, a player can't be "spectacularly bad" and still make 14% of the tackles his team recorded for the season.

And the NFL agrees. Tackles are one of the measurements teams use in evaluating players, and the seasons they have. Not the only one, or a stand alone stat, but certainly a key one.

Let me help you:

1. LBs are generally always going to lead their respective defensive units in tackles. 9 out of the 10 leaders in tackles last season were LBs. https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/play.../2/table/defensive/sort/totalTackles/dir/desc
2. Tackles as a statistic provides NO CONTEXT. Just like raw passing yard totals don’t reliably indicate the acumen of a QB; Jamies Winston threw for 5,000+ yards last season.
   
3. You continue to be stuck on “oh, so you think Jaylon was just touching players down.” No, you continue to miss the point. I’m saying YOU CANT DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS off tackle totals.

There have been numerous threads showing gifs and clips of Jaylon doing absolutely ridiculous (as in not good) things on the field that a normal/average LB wouldn’t.

 

[tm1119]

Because no one in their right mind would give Hitchens that contract. He played so well here he was able to get top linebacker money.

Hitch isn’t in the top 10 paid inside LB’s right now and likely won’t be a top 15 by the time this off season is over. His contract is pretty much on par with his play on the field, if not a slight value at this point.

I’m not lamenting the loss of Hitch or anything, but somehow this board has no concept of how the market is constantly moving. What looks like an overpay at the time, often becomes a good deal because the market is constantly reset by new extensions

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I just said I get criticizing him for his play. I have said multiple times he did not play well in 2019.

If you think Smith is overrated and you want Smith off the team, fine, I get it. But when you say you'd rather have a worse LB who makes more money, it makes your stance a bit strange.

Cant help you if you’re purposely being obtuse in an effort to make a point.

Strictly in terms of on the field play (contracts notwithstanding) I’d much rather have a consistent player than what Jaylon puts out on the field.

I know you don’t like Hitchens. I disagree with your take on him, so to try and treat your opinion as objective fact is strange.

 

[Sydla]

Cant help you if you’re purposely being obtuse in an effort to make a point.

Strictly in terms of on the field play (contracts notwithstanding) I’d much rather have a consistent player than what Jaylon puts out on the field.

I know you don’t like Hitchens. I disagree with your take on him, so to try and treat your opinion as objective fact is strange.

It's not that I don't like Hitchens. He was an average to above average LB who got an upper level contract. So that's why I had zero problems letting him walk to KC. If Hitchens' market was half of what he got, I would have been fine with him being back.

In terms of field play, Hitchens hasn't been that consistent. In fact, his two year run seems to match Smith's............ 2018 was a better season for Hitchens than 2019. His play slipped to the point where they actually pulled him off the field

So again, if you want to rip Smith, go ahead. I can't quibble with the notion that he was worse this year and not very good. But when you argue you'd rather have the worse LB who makes more money, that's an odd stance to take.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I think he's blinded by the fact Hitchens found himself on a Super Bowl team, and at the same time one of those posters prone to exaggeration and melodrama. I think most of us felt Smith wasn't as impactful in 2019 as 2018, but "spectacularly bad" is a gross exaggeration. He didn't suddenly become barely capable of even being an NFL special teams player, he just wasn't as outstanding as the season before.

Lol, and this is where you try to find solidarity with other posters addressing me in your post to them.

I gotta admit you make one hell of a strawman:

“He didn't suddenly become barely capable of even being an NFL special teams player [...]”

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

It's not that I don't like Hitchens. He was an average LB who got an upper level contract. So that's why I had zero problems letting him walk to KC. If Hitchens' market was half of what he got, I would have been fine with him being back.

In terms of field play, you seemingly are overvaluing the notion of "consistent". Hitchens has been consistently mediocre (he was actually kind of bad in 2019) since he got to KC.

So again, if you want to rip Smith, go ahead. But when you argue you'd rather have the worse LB who makes more money, that's an odd stance to take.

And you continue to bring money into the equation when I’ve consistently excluded it in my analysis of the two players. And before you say “well, you can’t do that...” Yes, actually you can.

 

[Sydla]

And you continue to bring money into the equation when I’ve consistently excluded it in my analysis of the two players. And before you say “well, you can’t do that...” Yes, actually you can.

Well you can do whatever you want but it doesn't somehow make your analysis more compelling.

 

[Fletch]

Smart dudes for seeing this freak show here in Dallas...and getting the hell out. Now they got a Super bowl ring for their troubles.

Funny how the narrative of players leave Dallas to die will continue.....

Really? Lol

 

[Fletch]

What narrative? Players leave Dallas to die?

We didn’t try to sign either player. For better or worse, we tried to replace Hitchens for his last couple years here. Hitch was a solid player for us and I’m assuming he’s the same for the Chiefs. Wilson was a solid depth guy, I’m assuming he’s the same.

Neither is the reason they won.

Nah, it’s just way cool to trash the Cowboys at every opportunity.

 

[OmerV]

Let me help you:

1. LBs are generally always going to lead their respective defensive units in tackles. 9 out of the 10 leaders in tackles last season were LBs. https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/play.../2/table/defensive/sort/totalTackles/dir/desc
2. Tackles as a statistic provides NO CONTEXT. Just like raw passing yard totals don’t reliably indicate the acumen of a QB; Jamies Winston threw for 5,000+ yards last season.
   
3. You continue to be stuck on “oh, so you think Jaylon was just touching players down.” No, you continue to miss the point. I’m saying YOU CANT DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS off tackle totals.

There have been numerous threads showing gifs and clips of Jaylon doing absolutely ridiculous (as in not good) things on the field that a normal/average LB wouldn’t.

Let me help you …

1. An individual LB is NOT generally going to have more tackles than all but 4 other LBs in the entire NFL.

2. Your comment about LBs generally leading their team in tackles is not in dispute, so you are only pretending to make a point.

3. Your narrative that tackles mean absolutely nothing is just you taking the ridiculously extreme position, as you are prone to do, that if a stat doesn't mean everything then it has to mean nothing ... that "all or nothing" is all there is - nothing between. It's a nonsense position, and those, like you, that can only promote extreme positions are not living in reality, because reality is almost never in the extremes.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

If you think Brady James was better then you already lost the argument.

What did Hitchens accomplish for you to be arguing so much in his defense? How was he better?

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

oh hell no....we gotta keep that Lee dude around. (sarcasm)

Agree....we should have tried to hang on to Wilson....

Wilson was a special teams backup. You don’t try and hang on to those guys.