Cowboys allowing 4th most pressure in the league

[Denim Chicken]

He was targeted 151 times and didn't break 1000 yards. Do you know what his reception rate was? 51%

In 2017 it was 174 targets for 55% and he had almost 1400 yds.

2018 so far 57 targets for 68% and 600 yards.

What changed between 2016 and 2017-2018?

The guy throwing the football didn't suck.

So are you trying to say that Hopkins is not an elite receiver or argue that he's not light years better than anything we have at WR?

 

[charron]

According to Next Gen Stats, 3.02 is 3rd from the bottom of the league

Right but i'm wondering why Dak holds the ball too long? Is he being pressured from the start and he has to run, i can see that some but not on the majority of snaps.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Right but i'm wondering why Dak holds the ball too long? Is he being pressured from the start and he has to run, i can see that some but not on the majority of snaps.

That is a reason in addition to WR not getting open, play not being called to get ball out quickly, QB not progressing though reads fast enough,etc.

We have no shortage of issues.

 

[nate dizzle]

So are you trying to say that Hopkins is not an elite receiver?

I am telling you he is an excellent receiver who is a target monster, who relies on a QB to put the ball in the right spot for him to hit his peak performance. The fact that he almost put up 1000 yards with a garbage QB speaks to his ability. The fact that he had a 51% catch rate that year speaks to the QB's, especially when you tie that to the upsurge in his stats across the board now that he has a legit QB throwing him the ball.

 

[Denim Chicken]

I am telling you he is an excellent receiver who is a target monster, who relies on a QB to put the ball in the right spot for him to hit his peak performance. The fact that he almost put up 1000 yards with a garbage QB speaks to his ability. The fact that he had a 51% catch rate that year speaks to the QB's, especially when you tie that to the upsurge in his stats across the board now that he has a legit QB throwing him the ball.

Cool, which all speaks to my point that he's helping his QB out.

 

[nate dizzle]

Cool, which all speaks to my point that he's helping his QB out.

It really doesn't.

 

[Denim Chicken]

It really doesn't.

An elite WR doesn't help his QB? I think you'll find yourself on an island with that take, brother.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Time is not subjective. Pressure on a pass 5 seconds after a snap is much different than after 2 seconds.

It is subjective depending on the play call. If it's a 3 step drop or quick release route or if it a slower developing route, like a go route or like the double fake we tried. The OL has to block as long as it takes for that particular play to develop, whether it's 2.5 seconds or 7 seconds. This team calls a lot of slower developing routes which require the OL to hold blocks longer. This exactly why when a team is struggling to protect, they start calling shorter, quick release routes to negate that pressure.

 

[nate dizzle]

An elite WR doesn't help his QB? I think you'll find yourself on an island with that take, brother.

I said he needs a good QB to reach his potential, which has been shown by his % completion stat explosion since Watson took over from the inept Osweiler.

Elite or not, if the guy throwing the ball is terrible, the WR is going to struggle, which he did in 2016.

 

[Denim Chicken]

I said he needs a good QB to reach his potential, which has been shown by his % completion stat explosion since Watson took over from the inept Osweiler.

Elite or not, if the guy throwing the ball is terrible, the WR is going to struggle, which he did in 2016.

You're veering far off topic. The original point was that both Watson & Prescott are under pressure, but Watson has the added benefit of an elite WR to help him while Prescott does not.

 

[nate dizzle]

So are you trying to say that Hopkins is not an elite receiver or argue that he's not light years better than anything we have at WR?

And to answer the addendum you added to this post, yes he's better than anyone on our squad at WR. However, our guys are winning their battles and getting even more open than he is on average, Dak just isn't seeing them or throwing it late or off target more often than not.

 

[Denim Chicken]

However, our guys are winning their battles and getting even more open than he is on average, Dak just isn't seeing them or throwing it late or off target more often than not.

I would disagree that "our guys" are winning or getting more open than Hopkins.

 

[nate dizzle]

I would disagree that "our guys" are winning or getting more open than Hopkins.

The stats don't lie.


Avg yards separation:

Swaim 4.2 yards
Beasley 2.5 yards
Thompson 2.4 yards

Hopkins 2.1

 

[khiladi]

Context: Next Gen Stats defines a “pressure” as a pass-rushing play in which a defender gets within two yards of the opposing quarterback at the time of the throw or sack. Other outlets collect pressures using different methods, and these have value. What is and is not a pressure will always carry some level of debate, but NGS provides us a unique advantage in that the numbers rely not on the subjective eye test, but rather on objective results that are consistent across all plays.

What a dumb definition...

It says nothing about the TIME when Dak was in the pocket, it only means where the defender was when he threw it. He could have danced for 30 seconds and threw it when a defender was within 2 yards of him and that’s considered pressure..

Plus, these are dropbacks and not shotgun, so if they aren’t using the terms synonymously it’s also crap, because Dak really isn’t a dropback QB anyways and we operate a lot in shotgun.

Also, we don’t throw that much, so any QB pressure for us, PERCENTAGE wise, EVEN PER THIS DUMB DEFINITION, would make this notion of pressure seems bigger than it actually is.

Anybody who watches the tape knows Dak holds onto the ball way too long.

 

[Denim Chicken]

The stats don't lie.


Avg yards separation:

Swaim 4.2 yards
Beasley 2.5 yards
Thompson 2.4 yards

Hopkins 2.1

They are subjective though. Separation stats are measured between a WR/TE and the nearest defender at the time of catch or incompletion. So if Prescott waits until a WR is very open to throw, whereas Watson will throw into tight windows, it would skew the stats in their favor. .

 

[Roadtrip635]

I am telling you he is an excellent receiver who is a target monster, who relies on a QB to put the ball in the right spot for him to hit his peak performance. The fact that he almost put up 1000 yards with a garbage QB speaks to his ability. The fact that he had a 51% catch rate that year speaks to the QB's, especially when you tie that to the upsurge in his stats across the board now that he has a legit QB throwing him the ball.

That low catch rate is not all a product of the QB, some of it was, but it is also the product of the lack of other weapons in their offense. Hop was the only option, Fuller was a rookie and struggling, numerous drops etc. Teams were able to focus their sole attention to Hopkins. Probably the most underrated WR in the NFL was Andre Johnson, he played with some bad QBs and still posted huge numbers even when he was the only offensive option. The guy was a beast, everyone knew the next pass was going to him, the announcers knew, the fans knew, the defense knew, but he still made plays in dbl coverage, triple coverage. Ridiculous the amount of plays he made and definitely made those QBs look better than they were.

 

[nate dizzle]

You're veering far off topic. The original point was that both Watson & Prescott are under pressure, but Watson has the added benefit of an elite WR to help him while Prescott does not.

Maybe I did...we don't have a Hopkins, but Hurns is a guy that has produced and so has Beasley and they are basically garbage right now with the way Dak is playing and as I've shown, it's really not a matter of them not getting open. It's a matter of Dak missing them either in his reads or in the air.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Maybe I did...we don't have a Hopkins, but Hurns is a guy that has produced and so has Beasley and they are basically garbage right now with the way Dak is playing and as I've shown, it's really not a matter of them not getting open. It's a matter of Dak missing them either in his reads or in the air.

So you're of the opinion that are WRs are fine, TEs are fine, the Oline is fine, and it's only Dak who is this issue?

 

[Denim Chicken]

Anybody who watches the tape knows Dak holds onto the ball way too long.

And anyone who watches can see there is too much pressure. More than one thing can be true (people seem to struggle with that).

 

[nate dizzle]

They are subjective though. Separation stats are measured between a WR/TE and the nearest defender at the time of catch or incompletion. So if Prescott waits until a WR is very open to throw, whereas Watson will through into tight windows, it would skew the stats in their favor. .

It skews back the other way when the QB waits for them to get open then throws late and the defender has time to close the distance so the average is likely a good indicator of separation.