News: Cowboys believe Brandon Carr is better than you think

[TheDude]

We blew the first two DC hires, no doubt about it.
I do believe the team, though, when they explained why the made the move away from Ryan and back to the 4-3. It coincided with the CBA. We'd just had a season where we were pulling Safeties off the street and playing them the next week in a complicated defense that we ended up having to dumb down to accommodate the replacement players. That was a problem. The new CBA was another problem, as it restricted workouts. We made the strategic decision to go with a simplified scheme, back to the 4-3, and to put the emphasis on technique and acquiring personnel (theoretically). This way we could more easily replace players in a simpler scheme. And it was a defense that emphasized takeaways, which was an obvious requirement. We were also nearing a position where changing the front made sense from a contract standpoint.

That's not an excuse for the mistake in going with Ryan in the first place. It was a dumb mistake. Same with Kiffin. I've said before that the botched defensive start set us back 3 years, and probably kept us from advancing in the playoffs v. GB. Had we been two years farther along with the fixes on that side of the ball, who knows what might have happened, but it's reasonable to think we'd probably be a bit better than we were at that point.

IM not going to got to the mattresses for Rob Ryan, but his defense really wasnt that bad early on in 2013. The lost to Seattle by getting dog whipped by that up and coming defense. Lost to the Bears with a 5 int performance from Romo and lost to the Ravens on another bad time management ending http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20121...gameinfo|contentId:0ap1000000080863&tab=recap

Then the injuries started to mount.

But your premise is spot on. For someone purportedly so planned and prepared, the Garret era started off with seemingly a shake of the magic 8ball.

 

[TheDude]

Simply, there is no right way to do the wrong thing...last year's gamble was Hardy. He didn't return to talent levels. Sometimes, that is what one gets in investing in a potential return and not just having funds to land an expensive but current star.

The team is investing now, correctly. And have been doing so, the past four seasons.

The Hardy deal was a good one. I thought he played as well as anyone on defense. If anything he was overplayed and moved inside a bit much. The funds are there to execute any strategy, so not sure the issue.

When one does as he should, and invest in strong draft picks, sometimes they have to do some growing up as well. If Gregory didn't have a troubled past, he wouldn't have been a Cowboy. But his potential is still here. He needs to make some major growth and become an adult now. But that hasn't arrived on the plate yet, as well.

If and when he arrives up to bat, then a safety and a playmaking linebacker are the biggest missing links for a strong producing defense, right now. Not nearly as dire a picture, as wailing about potential that is compared to a desert. All of those kinds of snap shots will strictly be lost in the desert to begin with...but not really a practical assessment of what is there to be worked with. Problems just don't have to last for ever, when individually they can be solved without additional changes.

Get Lawrence and Gregory up to speed, and match Jones at safety, and things already advance quite a bit...and that isn't wailing at a wall with ashcloth and ashes.

DE is a bigger need than anywhere on Def. Then Safety. LB 3rd. Carr is just overpaid. The defense will be dependent on the offense returning to 2014 form, its not going to be confused with the 2015 Broncos anytime soon

 

[Idgit]

IM not going to got to the mattresses for Rob Ryan, but his defense really wasnt that bad early on in 2013. The lost to Seattle by getting dog whipped by that up and coming defense. Lost to the Bears with a 5 int performance from Romo and lost to the Ravens on another bad time management ending http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012101406/2012/REG6/cowboys@ravens#menu=gameinfo|contentId:0ap1000000080863&tab=recap

Then the injuries started to mount.

But your premise is spot on. For someone purportedly so planned and prepared, the Garret era started off with seemingly a shake of the magic 8ball.

That's fair. I hated him from the start because of his dad, but he did have his moments.
Garrett reportedly wanted Dom Capers when he first took over, but that wasn't an option for him. The false start took too long to get right. I do like Marinelli, though. I don't think he's the greatest DC out there, but he's a good fit for what we want to do right now. And he fought a bear, that's pretty tough not to like.

 

[jobberone]

That is one way to look at it. In a vacuum, it seems reasonable. However, if you look at all the churning of coaches, schemes, players and results, I cant wrap my had around they saw an issue an cut bait. Ryan got 1 season with Carr and Claiborne. They invested MASSIVELY on 2 CBs that a COACH wanted and then cut bait and changed schemes to Kiffin, then Marinelli - both who took press corners and made them play 10 yards off and zone. Even, if that can be justified, how do you justify a slob like Ryan being able to make those calls THROUGH the HC and usurping any player personell groups or scouts. Coaches watch very little tape and they didnt even bring in Claiborne for a visit, which seemed like a last minute decision to make news. Ryan, in fairness, cannot hang for that. The coach and Go M hang for that. The coach is lauded as a culture changer and the Mo trade, if laid at his DC, is no way to run a draft.

Parsed for reply:

Not trying to lay it all on Ryan. They hired him and the HC and the FO had to sign off on the idea. But you don't hire a coach to put in a defense then refuse to give him the tools to perform. And I made it clear he had personality conflicts which were the major reasons he got axed. They then had to hire someone. Kiffin was the bridge to Marinelli so that's the end of that. Marinelli has not had the personnel to effect the defense he wants. These aren't excuses just the facts. Something doesn't work you move on.

Preaching to the choir about safeties. I've listed the crap they trotted out since Woodson left and it has been laughable. Since 2003 they have been in the top half of Opp Passer Rating 3 times. 2 with Parcells and 1 with Wade. There is something fundamentally wrong in evaluating the secondary. Meanwhile, you have NE who can develop anyone into a serviceable QB. The issue is not wanting to purge Carr forever, but paying that price and getting the similar production from street FAs cant be denied. If Carr wasnt here, then it likely would have been an easier sell for Caroll, Robinson, etc. Or if he was released and signed lower -even better. Status quo at 9M - I cant justify.

They put themselves behind the 8ball. You say they ripped off the bandaid with Ryan, but fail to do so with Carr last year.

You can want Carr gone but you have to be able to replace him on the field. You have a contract which is problem one. That has nothing to do with his performance on the field. You and I may bemoan having a Tesla that performs like a moped but you are married to the Tesla until you find another vehicle you can afford. Bemoan the contract and the inevitable marriage to Carr but this cut him at any cost is just not practical nor realistic.

I just dont think the 'wait it out" is a great strategy when you are in the last years of your $100M franchise QB. If so, you trade or release Romo. Philly purged their mistakes fast. Others have done similar. But that is a different discussion.

It is silly to even think about releasing Romo for any reason other than he can't play. He's not on any side of the equation. This is a talent acquisition problem much much more than any coaching or FO problem as they exist presently. And you cannot hurry that up but so much without making silly mistakes now and in possibly sacrificing the future with more 'we must do something' at all costs.

That's not a passive approach. You only have so many dollars. Spend them wisely. Don't buy in a seller's market if you can help it.

 

[AbeBeta]

I think I addressed your "warm body argument."

People dont complain at paying Tesla prices for Tesla performance, but paying Tesla prices and getting a Corolla might leave a bad taste in someones mouth. Arguing "Well, the ignition starts" doesnt change the economic mistake. You could have bought Prius, Corolla and added a new garage for the same money

Yeah, except for the fact that you just grabbed a bunch of irrelevant fantasy stats

 

[CCBoy]

The Hardy deal was a good one. I thought he played as well as anyone on defense. If anything he was overplayed and moved inside a bit much. The funds are there to execute any strategy, so not sure the issue.



DE is a bigger need than anywhere on Def. Then Safety. LB 3rd. Carr is just overpaid. The defense will be dependent on the offense returning to 2014 form, its not going to be confused with the 2015 Broncos anytime soon

If Hardy had been the answer looked for, his deal, which was incentive laden but paid well, wouldn't matter as would not his conduct not on the carpet. He wasn't the top level player sought. Hence, why he hasn't been in conversations up until now...this season.

With a safety to match Jones, the top umbrella is in place...and that immediately elevates cornerback play. They can more aggressively go one-on-one near the line of scrimmage. Mix that with the return of Scandrick as well as the retentions of Carr and Claiborne, and the secondary looks a lot better than last season.

With an addition to linebacker, that is a play maker...far and few between, then both the secondary and third levels of the defense are very good units. That leaves the defensive line.

The full potential of both Lawrence and Gregory could fix the outside pressure needs. The addition of Thornton and next to Crawford, makes the defensive front solid if not good. That would leave at least a rotational level of play needed. The addition of a first or second round talent into the defensive end group, could bring the rotation into a better level of play as well. There is a rather large group of defensive ends in the first two rounds, that at the very least, would be strong in rotation.

At linebacker, Sean Lee and Rolando McClain are close to a playmaking pair. Lee, without doubt, and with four interceptions.

The picture isn't that far off...despite waivering at looking at them.

 

[TheDude]

Yeah, except for the fact that you just grabbed a bunch of irrelevant fantasy stats

Results speak for themselves

 

[jobberone]

I mean it's bizarre that we focus on the wrong problem when a bigger problem is so obvious.

I *think* it happens because we have an offensive HC and a QB who really is capable of keeping us in games by playing crazy-good so much of the time. We see Romo fall just short time and time again and blame the offense, when the reality is he shouldn't have to be in all of those situations. But I don't know. We don't give up a ton of big plays on defense, either, I guess. But still. How many times do you have to get poked in the left eye before you realize the finger-jab is probably not coming from the right side again?

They haven't ignored the defense they just keep striking out too often. They need to stop taking riskier players and go with players from big schools with a history of on field success. They can throw in a few players like Gregory here and there but they need to try to build a base of talent. I don't see that happening overnight although I think they can be competitive due to the offense if they get one pass rusher at least, one quality LBer who can cover, a CB in the draft and elsewhere and another safety. They aren't going to be dominant (IMO) this year unless something or three special happens.

 

[CCBoy]

They haven't ignored the defense they just keep striking out too often. They need to stop taking riskier players and go with players from big schools with a history of on field success. They can throw in a few players like Gregory here and there but they need to try to build a base of talent. I don't see that happening overnight although I think they can be competitive due to the offense if they get one pass rusher at least, one quality LBer who can cover, a CB in the draft and elsewhere and another safety. They aren't going to be dominant (IMO) this year unless something or three special happens.

Pressed, there seems to be more of a gamble. But on a three year developmental picture, even with Gregory, a different view may well arrive. Lawrence and Gregory may yet be the gold panned for. Add one more solid in with the current group, and Marinelli may well have his defensive front started.

The top pick this season, is pretty important. Ramsey and Bosa are major projections in most predictions. Either would come in and add significant starting qualities. That from the start of the season. That is really big. Bosa and a defensive tackle in round two, would make my looks at the box, a lot better. Lee and McClain are solid in the second level. Then the secondary is improved if not for anything else, than experience together and the return of Scandrick. I'm a happy camper.

This still leaves a quarterback at the top of the third round...and workable there.

 

[TheDude]

Parsed for reply:

Not trying to lay it all on Ryan. They hired him and the HC and the FO had to sign off on the idea. But you don't hire a coach to put in a defense then refuse to give him the tools to perform. And I made it clear he had personality conflicts which were the major reasons he got axed. They then had to hire someone. Kiffin was the bridge to Marinelli so that's the end of that. Marinelli has not had the personnel to effect the defense he wants. These aren't excuses just the facts. Something doesn't work you move on.

There was no reason to hire Kiffen. Somehow there is this narrative that Marinelli was always tied to someone else and wouldnt come or was leaving. Kiffen and then Lovie.

That aside, I dont see how the three bolded statements are illustrating a paragon of consistency. They gave Rob all his pieces and got rid of him because they dont like him. The dont give Marinelli pieces and they like him.

The results are the results. There hasnt been a consistent philosophy or coaching.

You can want Carr gone but you have to be able to replace him on the field. You have a contract which is problem one. That has nothing to do with his performance on the field. You and I may bemoan having a Tesla that performs like a moped but you are married to the Tesla until you find another vehicle you can afford. Bemoan the contract and the inevitable marriage to Carr but this cut him at any cost is just not practical nor realistic.

Something doesnt work you move on or change. Car(r)s are readily available

It is silly to even think about releasing Romo for any reason other than he can't play. He's not on any side of the equation. This is a talent acquisition problem much much more than any coaching or FO problem as they exist presently. And you cannot hurry that up but so much without making silly mistakes now and in possibly sacrificing the future with more 'we must do something' at all costs.

That's not a passive approach. You only have so many dollars. Spend them wisely. Don't buy in a seller's market if you can help it.

The point in Romo is that he has a finite shelf life - Like Manning. Broncos knew after the Seattle SB game that Bailey, Michael Huff, Tracy Porter and Quentin Jammer werent gonna get it done.

But I dont see how a talent acquisition issue isnt a direct reflection and failure of the FO

 

[TheDude]

If Hardy had been the answer looked for, his deal, which was incentive laden but paid well, wouldn't matter as would not his conduct not on the carpet. He wasn't the top level player sought. Hence, why he hasn't been in conversations up until now...this season.

Hardy not being signed isnt due to talent or skill

With a safety to match Jones, the top umbrella is in place...and that immediately elevates cornerback play. They can more aggressively go one-on-one near the line of scrimmage. Mix that with the return of Scandrick as well as the retentions of Carr and Claiborne, and the secondary looks a lot better than last season.

With an addition to linebacker, that is a play maker...far and few between, then both the secondary and third levels of the defense are very good units. That leaves the defensive line.

Im not sure they will go Safety and LB in rd 1 and 2. Having Church remain as SS is an umbrella made of chicken wire

The full potential of both Lawrence and Gregory could fix the outside pressure needs. The addition of Thornton and next to Crawford, makes the defensive front solid if not good. That would leave at least a rotational level of play needed. The addition of a first or second round talent into the defensive end group, could bring the rotation into a better level of play as well. There is a rather large group of defensive ends in the first two rounds, that at the very least, would be strong in rotation.

At linebacker, Sean Lee and Rolando McClain are close to a playmaking pair. Lee, without doubt, and with four interceptions.

The picture isn't that far off...despite waivering at looking at them.

Still would feel better with a proven RDE

 

[jobberone]

There was no reason to hire Kiffen. Somehow there is this narrative that Marinelli was always tied to someone else and wouldnt come or was leaving. Kiffen and then Lovie.

That aside, I dont see how the three bolded statements are illustrating a paragon of consistency. They gave Rob all his pieces and got rid of him because they dont like him. The dont give Marinelli pieces and they like him.

The results are the results. There hasnt been a consistent philosophy or coaching.


Something doesnt work you move on or change. Car(r)s are readily available


The point in Romo is that he has a finite shelf life - Like Manning. Broncos knew after the Seattle SB game that Bailey, Michael Huff, Tracy Porter and Quentin Jammer werent gonna get it done.

But I dont see how a talent acquisition issue isnt a direct reflection and failure of the FO

I don't feel you haven't read and understood a think I've posted. Who cares about Kiffin now? I think Kiffin and Marinelli came as a package and you don't. It doesn't matter. Marinelli is doing a decent job with what he has. It's 90% personnel anyway.

You want Carr gone at any cost. IDK you can do that or could have done it. We looked high and low for CBs trying to fix the problem. Can't get rid of Carr or any starter without a known replacement as you don't want to go from average or marginal to worse. You can't just ignore the cap costs along with the player acquisition to replace him. Maybe we will have some luck this year and not lose OScan and Claiborne. We agree Carr is not a quality starter but at least he's on the field.

 

[TheDude]

I don't feel you haven't read and understood a think I've posted. Who cares about Kiffin now? I think Kiffin and Marinelli came as a package and you don't. It doesn't matter. Marinelli is doing a decent job with what he has. It's 90% personnel anyway.

Maybe because I dont see the logic is consistent. The story about the Kiffen (USC) and Marinelli (Bears) as a package is flat weird. Rob Ryan was here 2 years and in year 1 thought enough of to basically turn over the offseason and the draft to the tune of $60M or so investment. 2012def was riddled with injuries in the last half of the year and early losses were more on the offense. So in one year, Ryan is out of favor and gone, and in comes Kiffen + Marinelli because the FO hand was forced in a "package deal". That failed and Kiffen is gone in one year. Now everyone loves Marinelli, but havent given him pieces.

No one cares about Kiffen now, but it is one piece of a blindfolded pinata swing on defense the 5+ years of Garrett era. It's easy to dismiss the past, but when we sit here and lament the waste of a franchise QB career, there really are obvious reasons and a small cohort of those responsible.

You want Carr gone at any cost. IDK you can do that or could have done it. We looked high and low for CBs trying to fix the problem. Can't get rid of Carr or any starter without a known replacement as you don't want to go from average or marginal to worse. You can't just ignore the cap costs along with the player acquisition to replace him. Maybe we will have some luck this year and not lose OScan and Claiborne. We agree Carr is not a quality starter but at least he's on the field.

I want Carr's contract gone. If he has to go to, so be it. Does anyone really believe he has been a difference maker in the last 2 years? He is an average player with a bad contract. The bad contract is on the FO and the inability to secure Hayward or numerous other similar CBs at lower price and similar production is on th FO as well.

All teams will make mistakes, but the successful ones rectify them quickly.

 

[jobberone]

Maybe because I dont see the logic is consistent. The story about the Kiffen (USC) and Marinelli (Bears) as a package is flat weird. Rob Ryan was here 2 years and in year 1 thought enough of to basically turn over the offseason and the draft to the tune of $60M or so investment. 2012def was riddled with injuries in the last half of the year and early losses were more on the offense. So in one year, Ryan is out of favor and gone, and in comes Kiffen + Marinelli because the FO hand was forced in a "package deal". That failed and Kiffen is gone in one year. Now everyone loves Marinelli, but havent given him pieces.

No one cares about Kiffen now, but it is one piece of a blindfolded pinata swing on defense the 5+ years of Garrett era. It's easy to dismiss the past, but when we sit here and lament the waste of a franchise QB career, there really are obvious reasons and a small cohort of those responsible.




I want Carr's contract gone. If he has to go to, so be it. Does anyone really believe he has been a difference maker in the last 2 years? He is an average player with a bad contract. The bad contract is on the FO and the inability to secure Hayward or numerous other similar CBs at lower price and similar production is on th FO as well.

All teams will make mistakes, but the successful ones rectify them quickly.

Not worth discussing the Kiffin thing again.

Wanting Carr's contract and even him gone is fine with me. All I've tried to get you to see is wanting to do it and the practicality of same is the problem. We haven't been able to deal with the injuries to Claiborne then OScan et al and be able to afford to divest ourselves of Carr. It's that simple although when you throw on the cap problem you complicate it enough to make it a ridiculous move.

Who do you replace Carr with last year and now this year? And keep in mind Carr's contract is just now at the divesting stage. It really wasn't last year although the injuries made it mute.

IF they can find enough DBs to put a suitable product on the field AND have enough depth as well then they can consider reworking the contract (otherwise they have no leverage) or just cutting him and using the 7M to replace him and hit the rest over the next two years.

Until then you can wish in one hand and fill the other with you know and see which one fills up the quickest.

 

[TheDude]

Not worth discussing the Kiffin thing again.

Wanting Carr's contract and even him gone is fine with me. All I've tried to get you to see is wanting to do it and the practicality of same is the problem. We haven't been able to deal with the injuries to Claiborne then OScan et al and be able to afford to divest ourselves of Carr. It's that simple although when you throw on the cap problem you complicate it enough to make it a ridiculous move.

Who do you replace Carr with last year and now this year? And keep in mind Carr's contract is just now at the divesting stage. It really wasn't last year although the injuries made it mute.

IF they can find enough DBs to put a suitable product on the field AND have enough depth as well then they can consider reworking the contract (otherwise they have no leverage) or just cutting him and using the 7M to replace him and hit the rest over the next two years.

Until then you can wish in one hand and fill the other with you know and see which one fills up the quickest.

The OScan injury isnt relevant. He tore the knee in August. The Carr decision would have been Feb-June, so supporting Carr because of that isn't the appropriate cascade of decisions. It seems like your saying the FO had no options in 2013, 2014, or 2015 so poor them. Carr could have been a June 1 cut last year with little issue. Maybe he would have resigned lower - great. would have had more cap push forward this and now next to sign Fred, etc.

The question that isnt answered is how do you get in a position to lose all leverage. The answer is lack or evaluation, preparedness and forethought. It cant always be dismissed as bad luck

 

[jobberone]

The OScan injury isnt relevant. He tore the knee in August. The Carr decision would have been Feb-June, so supporting Carr because of that isn't the appropriate cascade of decisions. It seems like your saying the FO had no options in 2013, 2014, or 2015 so poor them. Carr could have been a June 1 cut last year with little issue. Maybe he would have resigned lower - great. would have had more cap push forward this and now next to sign Fred, etc.

The question that isnt answered is how do you get in a position to lose all leverage. The answer is lack or evaluation, preparedness and forethought. It cant always be dismissed as bad luck

I'd already dissed signing him. I hope you didn't miss that.

Sounds like we disagree on the methodology of replacing him. I say when you find the replacement player and it is fiscally responsible. Remember you have to add the cost of the replacement to the cost of the dead space. If you can get him to renegotiate his contract fair to both and still sign another player esp a CB then you are at least one CB up on the current situation not to mention freeing up some cap now and the future..

 

[Stash]

Give it a rest Stash. Many of us have stated Carr is what he is for a long time. We didn't get a bonanza of FAs you wanted yet but there will be more than a few available as the year goes by including DBs. Landry would often pick up a cut veteran corner and make him either a CB or more often a S and get a couple of years out of them.

Just because I'm not happy with what they did doesn't automatically assume that I wanted a "bonanza of FA's." In fact, I posted what I would have done in the Roster Zone and it was far from a spending spree.

It is becoming more and more apparent to most that buying FAs early on is a risky and often bad investment; that's not even a new revelation either. That doesn't mean don't ever pick up a FA but be very picky about it.

Sounds more like be in lockstep with whatever the team does or doesn't decide to do.

You many want to consider stop beating up the club and FO over and over and wait until opening day to officially begin your wailing. Just saying.

As I said in my initial post, people can and should have the right to buy it or not.

 

[Section446]

As bad as Carr is, you have to imagine that everyone in the secondary is going play better this year with the addition of Scandrick.

 

[CCBoy]

Hardy not being signed isnt due to talent or skill



Im not sure they will go Safety and LB in rd 1 and 2. Having Church remain as SS is an umbrella made of chicken wire



Still would feel better with a proven RDE

Church is a numbers person, but he is well motivated and an aggressive type of a player. Not the best in coverage, but closer to the line of scrimmage he does a professional level of play. He wouldn't be a dual talent that can be used in harmony with Jones. But he is a talent that can be used to his strength and part of a decent team. A passing game coordinator will help in strengthening these types of special skills players. Fully functional free safety/strong safety dual functioning players are expensive and not numerous. That is why having Jones and Ramsey would be a matched pair for about a decade.

That's a lot of defensed passes. Or stopped drives...

As to Hardy, he's not back already...not from being a 'bad boy,' but for lack of top shelf productions and being a 'bad boy.' He's not worth his baggage, and now, for over two years. That is relevant as to lack of actual play on the carpet...for a very extended time. Adequate can be replaced in the draft.

Without baggage by his replacement, that improves team function...not the individual's.

 

[BigStar]

As bad as Carr is, you have to imagine that everyone in the secondary is going play better this year with the addition of Scandrick.

Agreed. no need need to keep the mistake (Carr) to compensate for lack of talent when everyone is a JAG outside of Scan @ CB. 13M for avg. is just a bad team structure/example to young players.