Cowboys Sacred Cows

[Verdict]

We'd be dog**** without Dez / Wit, thats why

Again, that's an opinion. Its your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I just do not agree with your assessment.

 

[Verdict]

I wanna keep Dez and Witten but Dak didn't slow down one bit with Dez out.......that being said Dez started being a beast again by the end of the season and I think it's because he is finally healthy. We will see him from game 1 this coming year and maybe we start out with a W

I hope Dez starts performing up to his contract consistently. He did play better toward the end of the season.

Janoris Jenkins made some pretty tough criticism of Dez' game and his inability to gain separation once you figure out his game. I hope Jenkins is wrong, but I believe it is spot on. That's why Dez disappears in some games.

Dez feasted on bad secondaries. He disappeared when he faced a really good corner. You don't pay a guy $70 million dollars to disappear in big games against the best competition.

Witten is getting a lot of balls thrown his way and he catches them, but part of that is due to the fact that he is not a threat to score after the catch. Some of that is due to scheming. His TD totals are horrible and that is part of the reason I think he is over paid relative to the cap.

Would you trade Dez and Witten for Julio Jones? Hell yeah you would if you are being objective. Julio's cap hit should be double what Dez' is based on ability and production. He is definitely worth more against the cap than Dez and Witten are combined.

 

[Verdict]

Eh, could take a chance on Stills. Rebounded well after that terrible drop vs Seattle week 1.
But to find either for cheap you need to hit on one in the draft.
Cause either or that fits both wants will cost a pretty penny.

Stills is a guy who might turn out to be what the doctor ordered for us. He has had limited success so far, but if he could be obtained at a reasonable cap hit he would probably be a definite upgrade over Butler. If you can get him fir what it would cost to keep Butler then you have made a good risk. Low cost, upgrades the position, fills the hole, and the upside is potentially significant.

 

[Verdict]

He did have a nice playoff game I agree. His speed and passion have seemed to been lost however. Remember this dude returned punts?? Not sure if it's maturity on his part, but he doesn't even seem like the same guy on the sidelines anymore.

The Packers were playing with a dumpster fire level secondary against us. If Dez didn't ball out in that game against that level of competition we should have written him off.

 

[Verdict]

You are trying to make up for your thread when you compared Jason Witten's last year of his restructures contract to Gronk(who is coming off another injury riddled season, I might add)

I made a thread a month ago saying Witten should start taking less snaps to a younger player. The thread was generally received well. Your analysis comparing Witten's contract value to an injured played who makes much more was not popular. You don't need to make a thread now complaining about the people who disagree with you.

I agree that Witten could be a progress stopper. I disagree with this post because I think Gronk is a way better player than Witten and he is a much better value. Gronk has played less and has still out performed Witten

 

[LandryFan]

48 players on the active game day roster multiplied by 5 penalties per season is 240 penalties divided by 16 games is 15 penalties per game on one team.

But 48 players don't start and play 96% of the snaps in every game (it's 46 active game day players, BTW)...seems your assuming every player on the active roster plays full snaps...they don't. JW, however, played almost every snap (1016 of 1058 offensive plays for the year). Look at it this way: The Cowboys committed 6.94 penalties per game in 2016. Jason Witten accounted for .3125 penalties per game, or slightly less than 1/22 of all penalties. He's right at the average for all starters. The most accurate way to look at it would be penalties per snap per player but that would require research that I don't have time for. However, I assure you that JW would be nowhere near the top on the team...he'd be somewhere just below the middle.

 

[Idgit]

So then it is your opinion the OP had it right in calling JW a sacred cow.

Obviously not.

A sacred cow is a thing that takes up resources and does not give back because it cannot be touched. That's not a definition that fits a talented player who never misses a snap and does all the dirty work on top of routinely making chain moving or game winning (hey, PHI fans!) plays whenever needed.

 

[camaro69]

I can certainly see how Witten's contract vs. performance could be viewed as him not playing up to his contract. Looking at it from a simple black and white perspective (Pay vs. Production), it looks out of whack. However, football teams deal in many shades of gray and things aren't always clear cut. What Witten means to this franchise goes well beyond his on-field production... and I'm not talking about sentimental aspects either. I mean the leadership and work ethic that he brings to the team. The stability and the precision. The pressure he puts on defenses to just keep an eye on him helps those around him and his run blocking is still near the top of the league for TE's.

There are a ton of things that he does that helps Dallas win games and none of them have anything to do with legacy.

Can he stretch a defense down the seam much? No. Can he get yards after the catch? Hell no. But there are so many things that he does that helps the W/L column... in the locker room. At practice. And still on the field.

Now, would I like to see what an O.J. Howard could do with Dak and Elliott? Oh, hell yeah. The passing game would be harder to stop with that kind of athleticism at TE. However, his run blocking wouldn't be as good as Witten's. His leadership would be a tiny fraction of what Jason brings to the huddle, and his reliability would be much less for Dak at least for a couple of seasons.

Bottom line is, I would love an athletic TE too but fans don't see everything that Witten brings to the table and his significant contributions that can't be quantified are all too often overlooked or forgotten about entirely.

And I consider you to be a pretty well informed fan verdict, so I'm not putting down anything you said... just giving my perspective on this subject.

As for Dez... I'm too sleepy to get into that one. Maybe another day, lol.

Which Dez? with Romo or without cause for awhile there Dez and Romo was a pretty good combo. When Witten retires if your a Cowboys fan you go to your room turn out the light and cry. Witten is like the Chevy commercial (like a rock) Do we need a guy like O.J. Howard YES do we bad mouth WITT - Nope as a fan I have no control over his contract

I can certainly see how Witten's contract vs. performance could be viewed as him not playing up to his contract. Looking at it from a simple black and white perspective (Pay vs. Production), it looks out of whack. However, football teams deal in many shades of gray and things aren't always clear cut. What Witten means to this franchise goes well beyond his on-field production... and I'm not talking about sentimental aspects either. I mean the leadership and work ethic that he brings to the team. The stability and the precision. The pressure he puts on defenses to just keep an eye on him helps those around him and his run blocking is still near the top of the league for TE's.

There are a ton of things that he does that helps Dallas win games and none of them have anything to do with legacy.

Can he stretch a defense down the seam much? No. Can he get yards after the catch? Hell no. But there are so many things that he does that helps the W/L column... in the locker room. At practice. And still on the field.

Now, would I like to see what an O.J. Howard could do with Dak and Elliott? Oh, hell yeah. The passing game would be harder to stop with that kind of athleticism at TE. However, his run blocking wouldn't be as good as Witten's. His leadership would be a tiny fraction of what Jason brings to the huddle, and his reliability would be much less for Dak at least for a couple of seasons.

Bottom line is, I would love an athletic TE too but fans don't see everything that Witten brings to the table and his significant contributions that can't be quantified are all too often overlooked or forgotten about entirely.

And I consider you to be a pretty well informed fan verdict, so I'm not putting down anything you said... just giving my perspective on this subject.

As for Dez... I'm too sleepy to get into that one. Maybe another day, lol.

 

[Verdict]

That's not really what happened in regards to Witten.

You created a thread about Witten's contract and claimed it was a bad contract. That was completely false. It was a very reasonable contract and based on the original contract they could have moved on after 2015 at no cost.

He will be overpaid in 2017 but not by a huge amount when you consider his reliability and the fact that they don't have a replacement.

You are correct that people cry like babies when Dez gets criticized.

Witten is the biggest sacred cow on the roster. I don't even think that is debatable. There have been serveral stories over time about how Witten didn't want to come out of the game or whatever, essentially over riding what a coach was trying to do on the field. Players don't, or shouldn't over ride a coach and a coach shouldn't let that happen.

Witten has been able to create this good guy persona (and he is a good guy) but he is also somewhat selfish and is not a team player with respect to the other tight ends on the roster. He really is a lot like Brett Favre, without coming out and saying it. He protects his spot on the team at the expense of other players playing and getting a chance to surpass him. I'm not saying it isn't smart of him to do that to protect his own wage earning, but it isn't all team friendly.

I stand by my original criticism of his contract. He is overpaid for what he brings to the team. Moreover we need to be prepared to move on and do it. I can see him running 5 yard routes when he is 50on third and 15 and we will still be talking about the record he is setting that will never be broken. Watch him play, the dude's best blocking days are far behind him.

I hope we draft a first round tight end and move on, or he pays for half of what he is making now.

Better yet trade Dez and Witten for Julio Jones or A.J. Green. Oops the other team would never do that, would they? That should tell you something.

 

[Verdict]

Obviously not.

A sacred cow is a thing that takes up resources and does not give back because it cannot be touched. That's not a definition that fits a talented player who never misses a snap and does all the dirty work on top of routinely making chain moving or game winning (hey, PHI fans!) plays whenever needed.

You are thinking about the old Jason Witten and are living in the past. Those days are long gone.

 

[Idgit]

You are thinking about the old Jason Witten and are living in the past. Those days are long gone.

Clearly you feel that way. He looks pretty much like the exact same player to me. His yards and receptions were down a little bit for his 14th season but neither significantly. Given the new QB and the focus on the running game, it looks pretty reasonable to me. He still was clutch in every situation where he was required to be clutch. He still blocks well and moves the chains.

It's more likely fans are trying to throw dirt on him again like they have each of the last 3-4 years and that that's happening because of his age and the fact that it's a safe bet he's going to eventually tail off sometime.

The reality is, he's on the downside of a great career, but he's also a guy capable of playing at a very high level until the day he hangs up the cleats. He'll play another year or two, be a talented contributor the whole time, then ride off into the sunset.

 

[Verdict]

Not that I agree with the OP premise but under that premise, you believe Romo's "on field" performance over the last year is more valuable relative to his compensation than Witten's and Dez's? Because that was his statement.

Gotta love a player who wins the SB MVP as a defensive player on the losing team. Better is that he was my favorite player before that performance!

I'm not sure if you are talking about my original post or not. Romo is treated differently than Dez or Witten. My post has several layers. All three, Romo, Dez and Witten have under performed their contracts the past couple of years. Romo just tends to get vilified and Dez and Witten tend to skate as sacred cows. Romo gets plenty of **** piled on him rightly or wrongly. Personally, I think Romo can still play and his skill level is worthy of his contract. I am just not sure if his health will allow him to which is a totally valid concern with his injury history.

I would love to see Romo take a pay cut and stick around. We cannot replace Romo without taking a drop off in talent level unless we find another Dak, and I'm not sure we can bank on that. But again, that's a different conversation than my original post.

 

[Verdict]

Clearly you feel that way. He looks pretty much like the exact same player to me. His yards and receptions were down a little bit for his 14th season but neither significantly. Given the new QB and the focus on the running game, it looks pretty reasonable to me. He still was clutch in every situation where he was required to be clutch. He still blocks well and moves the chains.

It's more likely fans are trying to throw dirt on him again like they have each of the last 3-4 years and that that's happening because of his age and the fact that it's a safe bet he's going to eventually tail off sometime.

The reality is, he's on the downside of a great career, but he's also a guy capable of playing at a very high level until the day he hangs up the cleats. He'll play another year or two, be a talented contributor the whole time, then ride off into the sunset.

That's fine. No one is saying otherwise. The problem is you are paying him double what his value is (cap wise) and that's not a good thing for the team to do. The Patriots don't do things like that. That is why they are perennially sniffing the title every year and we are up and down like a yo yo.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I find it interesting that certain players seem immune to criticism by Cowboys fans and members of this board in particular.

Dez Bryant and Jason Witten immediately come to mind. Both are arguably underperforming their contracts and their best days may be behind them, especially in the case of Witten.

I find it very interesting that any realistic criticism of them (and others) can lead to melt downs of epic proportions, calling detractors not real fans or worse.

These guys seem to be beyond criticism among many. I personally think both of these guys are good players and have value to the team, but my chief complaint is that both are underperforming their contracts and Dez' mental lapses and/or the perception that he is a bit weak minded.

Many seem to believe that based on what they have done previously that they essentially walk on water and cannot be criticized.

Some would say that Romo also fits into this category, and he may for some. Romo has arguably done more to keep this organization relevant than Dez and Wiiten have done combined. Yet many of those same people vilify Romo.

I would argue that Romo still has more value than Dez and Witten have combined. I understand that whether Romo or Dak is better, etc. is the subject of legitimate debate. The value of trading Romo, etc. is also a legitimate exercise. I just think that it is funny how much different the standard is for Romo than Witten and Dez.

What's your "realistic" criticism of Dez?

Because if it doesn't involve acknowledging his foot injury in 2015 and the fact the passing attack changed under Dak had an impact on his production then it isn't realistic.

 

[DandyDon52]

Dez is not underperforming. The mere threat when he is on the field is a weapon in itself. The fact that he was unstoppable when it mattered most in the playoff game is hard to dispute as well.

Maybe he did need a full year to recover from his foot injury.
I'll go out on a limb and say he'll be widely considered top 3-5 next year.

They didnt give him a 70 mil contract to be a decoy threat did they?
He was paid to be a top 10 guy, and in 2016 he was top 40 in td's and top 100 in catches and yds , so that is under perfoming.
Not all his fault though, and he played ok this year, but needs to be better in 2017.

 

[JoeKing]

But 48 players don't start and play 96% of the snaps in every game (it's 46 active game day players, BTW)...seems your assuming every player on the active roster plays full snaps...they don't. JW, however, played almost every snap (1016 of 1058 offensive plays for the year). Look at it this way: The Cowboys committed 6.94 penalties per game in 2016. Jason Witten accounted for .3125 penalties per game, or slightly less than 1/22 of all penalties. He's right at the average for all starters. The most accurate way to look at it would be penalties per snap per player but that would require research that I don't have time for. However, I assure you that JW would be nowhere near the top on the team...he'd be somewhere just below the middle.

I didn't say they did. I said if every active game day player was flagged at the rate Witten is flagged(5 per season) then we would never win. Thank you for your correction of 46, not 48 active game day players but that's still 14 flags per game. We can't have players committing infractions at that rate. You're math ignores that not every player flagged is a starter and you ignore the special team penalized players too. I'm giving them all 5 penalties per season and showing how that would drastically hurt the team. We can't play with that, can't do it. But you give Witten a pass.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

I hope Dez starts performing up to his contract consistently. He did play better toward the end of the season.

Janoris Jenkins made some pretty tough criticism of Dez' game and his inability to gain separation once you figure out his game. I hope Jenkins is wrong, but I believe it is spot on. That's why Dez disappears in some games.

Dez feasted on bad secondaries. He disappeared when he faced a really good corner. You don't pay a guy $70 million dollars to disappear in big games against the best competition.

Witten is getting a lot of balls thrown his way and he catches them, but part of that is due to the fact that he is not a threat to score after the catch. Some of that is due to scheming. His TD totals are horrible and that is part of the reason I think he is over paid relative to the cap.

Would you trade Dez and Witten for Julio Jones? Hell yeah you would if you are being objective. Julio's cap hit should be double what Dez' is based on ability and production. He is definitely worth more against the cap than Dez and Witten are combined.

No I wouldn't trade Dez and Witten for Julio. Ryan makes it a point to get the ball to Julio. We don't throw to Dez a bunch. The game against the Giants isn't the norm.

Don't believe me go back and watch Dez burn Josh Norman but Dak didn't throw him the ball. Dez was wide open for 50 plus yard TD. I'm not blaming Dak I think it's more scheme then anything. I bet if Dez played for Atlanta, GB, Cincy or even the Giants you would see Dez numbers explode even more. It's a system thing. Again it's not Dez disappearing it's the ball isn't thrown to him.

I remember a few years ago we played detriot (the Calvin 300 yard game) Dez had only 3 or 4 passes thrown to him and he had 2 TDs......Calvin had the ball thrown to him over and over all game.

 

[DandyDon52]

He did have a nice playoff game I agree. His speed and passion have seemed to been lost however. Remember this dude returned punts?? Not sure if it's maturity on his part, but he doesn't even seem like the same guy on the sidelines anymore.

could be he is tired of the "process" ?
plus he may have favored romo coming back over dak is now the guy.

 

[JoeKing]

Obviously not.

A sacred cow is a thing that takes up resources and does not give back because it cannot be touched. That's not a definition that fits a talented player who never misses a snap and does all the dirty work on top of routinely making chain moving or game winning (hey, PHI fans!) plays whenever needed.

But when I find fault with Witten you object. His penalties are killing us... happen at the most inopportune times.

Honestly I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I love Witten's game so I am nit picking to see if anyone would object and thereby prove the OP's point of him being a sacred cow. You bit.

 

[Idgit]

But when I find fault with Witten you object. His penalties are killing us... happen at the most inopportune times.

Honestly I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. I love Witten's game so I am nit picking to see if anyone would object and thereby prove the OP's point of him being a sacred cow. You bit.

I didn't object to the penalties. He gets too many of them, and I imagine he'd be the first to admit it. I just think the value we get from his blocking and receiving skills, even at his age, is worth it overall. Granted, he's at a point in his contract next year when he's getting more than he's worth for the production he gives us, but that's a function of how the deal was structured. He jumps from a $1MM base/$5.8MM hit to a $7.4MM/$12.2MM hit base. Overall, though 5/$37 for Jason with the current deal is a reasonable contract as far as I'm concerned.