Cowboys Sacred Cows

[xwalker]

Witten
393 catches
3,979 yards
22 touchdowns
80 starts
7.4 million per year, roughly $462,500 made per game started

Gronk
273 catches
4,222 yards
41 touchdowns
48 starts
9 million per year, roughly $937,500 per game started

Is Gronk a better player? Absolutely but he is also paid more. You said he is a better value and has outperformed Witten, I disagree wholeheartedly based on the numbers I posted above from the last 5 years. Yes, Gronk has more touchdowns, that is his role on his team--he is the redzone threat on a team without a big receiver. We have Dez for that and Dez rivals Gronk in touchdowns.

Witten is a reliable asset that is dependable on 3rd downs and he never misses a game. Gronk is making almost double what Witten is making per game started.

Gronk is the best tight end to ever play the game if he can actually stay on the field. I would rather have a steady player that plays every game than a great player that plays some games.

Great post.

 

[hornitosmonster]

For the most part Dez gets blasted on this board. Written is old but he is still consistent and why you want to compare Written, hall of famer FYI, to a sonetimes explosive yet very unreliable tight end in Gronk is beyond me. It is very doubtful Gronk will be getting a gold jacket

 

[Verdict]

Witten
393 catches
3,979 yards
22 touchdowns
80 starts
7.4 million per year, roughly $462,500 made per game started

Gronk
273 catches
4,222 yards
41 touchdowns
48 starts
9 million per year, roughly $937,500 per game started

Is Gronk a better player? Absolutely but he is also paid more. You said he is a better value and has outperformed Witten, I disagree wholeheartedly based on the numbers I posted above from the last 5 years. Yes, Gronk has more touchdowns, that is his role on his team--he is the redzone threat on a team without a big receiver. We have Dez for that and Dez rivals Gronk in touchdowns.

Witten is a reliable asset that is dependable on 3rd downs and he never misses a game. Gronk is making almost double what Witten is making per game started.

Gronk is the best tight end to ever play the game if he can actually stay on the field. I would rather have a steady player that plays every game than a great player that plays some games.

So Geonk has twice as many touchdowns in half as many games? Damn, Gronk is twice as much better than Witten than I thought.


I'll bet if you broke Wittens touchdowns almost all of them are short yardage touchdiwns. Gronk can score from a distance. It's not just the numbers it is the effect he causes on a defense.

Witten is not really double teamed and Gronk faces that regularly. The notion that Witten is better is laughable. For the money Gronk wins that hands down.

 

[Verdict]

Witten
393 catches
3,979 yards
22 touchdowns
80 starts
7.4 million per year, roughly $462,500 made per game started

Gronk
273 catches
4,222 yards
41 touchdowns
48 starts
9 million per year, roughly $937,500 per game started

Is Gronk a better player? Absolutely but he is also paid more. You said he is a better value and has outperformed Witten, I disagree wholeheartedly based on the numbers I posted above from the last 5 years. Yes, Gronk has more touchdowns, that is his role on his team--he is the redzone threat on a team without a big receiver. We have Dez for that and Dez rivals Gronk in touchdowns.

Witten is a reliable asset that is dependable on 3rd downs and he never misses a game. Gronk is making almost double what Witten is making per game started.

Gronk is the best tight end to ever play the game if he can actually stay on the field. I would rather have a steady player that plays every game than a great player that plays some games.

Why don't you do the math for me on the touchdowns per cap dollar spent and get back to me. I am curious what you find.

 

[Verdict]

For the most part Dez gets blasted on this board. Written is old but he is still consistent and why you want to compare Written, hall of famer FYI, to a sonetimes explosive yet very unreliable tight end in Gronk is beyond me. It is very doubtful Gronk will be getting a gold jacket

Gold jackets don't play on Sunday anymore for a reason.

 

[robjay04]

So Geonk has twice as many touchdowns in half as many games? Damn, Gronk is twice as much better than Witten than I thought.


I'll bet if you broke Wittens touchdowns almost all of them are short yardage touchdiwns. Gronk can score from a distance. It's not just the numbers it is the effect he causes on a defense.

Witten is not really double teamed and Gronk faces that regularly. The notion that Witten is better is laughable. For the money Gronk wins that hands down.

Did I say Witten was better once in my post? Seriously? I mentioned Gronk makes double than what Witten does on a per game basis. I also said at least twice Gronk is the better player, he makes more.

I also mentioned Gronk's role on his team is to be a big redzone threat. The Patriots have smaller receivers, they rely on their tight ends for passing touchdowns. Not to discredit anything away from Gronks touchdown production, it is amazing but the Cowboys rely on Dez Bryant to score points. Witten doesn't play that role, his role is to get reliable short distance target to kee drives alive. He does that well.

But since you really want to go there, you started this thread with the intention of calling out people who defend Witten or Dez. Now when I just showed you numbers that show Gronk is a horrible value compared to Witten and you feel you are losing that argument, you want to mention touchdowns.

Dez Bryant has 51 touchdowns in the last 5 years
AJ Green has 42
Julio Jones has 34
Antonio Brown has 48

So if Gronk is a much better value than Witten because he caught more touchdowns...does that mean that Dez is a much better value than these guys?

 

[Verdict]

Did I say Witten was better once in my post? Seriously? I mentioned Gronk makes double than what Witten does on a per game basis. I also said at least twice Gronk is the better player, he makes more.

I also mentioned Gronk's role on his team is to be a big redzone threat. The Patriots have smaller receivers, they rely on their tight ends for passing touchdowns. Not to discredit anything away from Gronks touchdown production, it is amazing but the Cowboys rely on Dez Bryant to score points. Witten doesn't play that role, his role is to get reliable short distance target to kee drives alive. He does that well.

But since you really want to go there, you started this thread with the intention of calling out people who defend Witten or Dez. Now when I just showed you numbers that show Gronk is a horrible value compared to Witten and you feel you are losing that argument, you want to mention touchdowns.

Dez Bryant has 51 touchdowns in the last 5 years
AJ Green has 42
Julio Jones has 34
Antonio Brown has 48

So if Gronk is a much better value than Witten because he caught more touchdowns...does that mean that Dez is a much better value than these guys?

Gronk doesn't make twice what Dez does on a per contract year basis. That's disengenuine.

 

[DogFace]

They didnt give him a 70 mil contract to be a decoy threat did they?
He was paid to be a top 10 guy, and in 2016 he was top 40 in td's and top 100 in catches and yds , so that is under perfoming.
Not all his fault though, and he played ok this year, but needs to be better in 2017.

So you're saying he was underutilized because he doesn't draw up the plays.

I agree with that and I think we all do.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Witten
393 catches
3,979 yards
22 touchdowns
80 starts
7.4 million per year, roughly $462,500 made per game started

Gronk
273 catches
4,222 yards
41 touchdowns
48 starts
9 million per year, roughly $937,500 per game started

Is Gronk a better player? Absolutely but he is also paid more. You said he is a better value and has outperformed Witten, I disagree wholeheartedly based on the numbers I posted above from the last 5 years. Yes, Gronk has more touchdowns, that is his role on his team--he is the redzone threat on a team without a big receiver. We have Dez for that and Dez rivals Gronk in touchdowns.

Witten is a reliable asset that is dependable on 3rd downs and he never misses a game. Gronk is making almost double what Witten is making per game started.

Gronk is the best tight end to ever play the game if he can actually stay on the field. I would rather have a steady player that plays every game than a great player that plays some games.

The only argument you can hang your hat on is to say Witten is available to play. That's it.

The flip side of that is that Gronk gives you waaaaaaaay better production/value on a per/game basis comparatively when he does play.

You should breakdown what production/value each player gives you on a per game basis.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

My criticism id well documents. If you think Dez is worth every penny of his $70 million dollar deal, and he is a top 5 receiver in the league, I don't think our discussion will be very fruitful.

Right, so you don't acknowledge those "minor" details in coming up with conclusion.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Why go back just 5 years? Secondly, why are you using "games started" as your basis? You should be using games played in.

But to play along with the numbers you presented...

Per game production value (numbers rounded to nearest tenth):

Witten:
4.9 receptions/per game
50 yards/per game
1:17 (TD per catch ratio)

Gronk:
5.7 receptions/per game
88 yards/per game
1:7 (TD per catch ratio)

Now remove the names Witten and Gronk, and replace them with Player X and Player Y. Based on those numbers I gladly pay Player Y an extra $1.6M per year.

 

[Killerinstinct]

I don't want to criticise Bryant or Witten or any other player but I do think it is impossible to have players that are among the highest paid at every position.

Romo- record setting contract at the time and one that has meant we sit out FA for the most part. Instead of ever signing an elite FA we sign some jags and then fans stuck in something akin to Stockholm Syndrome drone on about how Signing FA's doesn't work. Well it does if you sign the right one. Anyone doubt Eric Berry will be a good singing?

Witten - contract exceeds his contributions by far and I love the guy. It is not his fault. It is Jerry's.

Bryant - paid as if he is a top 5 WR in the league. He is good and very often great but his salary is too large.

Scandrick - whines about being underpaid and immediately get's a huge contract. Overpaid!

Crawford - Way overpaid. Ridiculous contract.

Tyron, Fred and soon Martin - The advantage of having a pro bowl center is negated when his salary is that large. Martin is going to get such a huge contract it isn't funny and Tyron already has a 100 million dollar contract. These guys are great players but Jerry can't just bust out a check and bend over every time a contract is negotiated.

Even Dan Bailey as much as I love him has a contract that is too high.

I shudder to think what Beasley is going to get. I love the guy but if you overpay him then having him as a player is no longer an advantage. It is a disadvantage. Right now he is advantage. I doubt he will be after signing his next contract. He might end up being the most overpaid no 3 receiver in the league.

The irony is the biggest difference between being huge losers (2015) and 13-3 was a qb making almost nothing and a RB on rookie contract making not a lot.

It wasn't all the overpaid fat on the team. I understand you have to pay players if you want them to re-sign but you can't just bend over without even trying to negotiate. It is a business and the salary cap negotiation is one of the things that separates the Patriots from the Cowboys.

 

[robjay04]

The only argument you can hang your hat on is to say Witten is available to play. That's it.

The flip side of that is that Gronk gives you waaaaaaaay better production/value on a per/game basis comparatively when he does play.

You should breakdown what production/value each player gives you on a per game basis.

It's pretty easy. You pay Gronk just shy of a million dollars a game for his production. You pay Witten 7.4 million per year for his.

The argument is the same argument that I have been
making the whole time. They essentially play different roles on their team. Witten is the player who you want to move the chains, Gronk is who you want if you need a big play. Fact is, Dez gives our offense what Gronk gives to New England. It's not like our offense in general is lacking because of Witten.

 

[robjay04]

I don't want to criticise Bryant or Witten or any other player but I do think it is impossible to have players that are among the highest paid at every position.

Romo- record setting contract at the time and one that has meant we sit out FA for the most part. Instead of ever signing an elite FA we sign some jags and then fans stuck in something akin to Stockholm Syndrome drone on about how Signing FA's doesn't work. Well it does if you sign the right one. Anyone doubt Eric Berry will be a good singing?

Witten - contract exceeds his contributions by far and I love the guy. It is not his fault. It is Jerry's.

Bryant - paid as if he is a top 5 WR in the league. He is good and very often great but his salary is too large.

Scandrick - whines about being underpaid and immediately get's a huge contract. Overpaid!

Crawford - Way overpaid. Ridiculous contract.

Tyron, Fred and soon Martin - The advantage of having a pro bowl center is negated when his salary is that large. Martin is going to get such a huge contract it isn't funny and Tyron already has a 100 million dollar contract. These guys are great players but Jerry can't just bust out a check and bend over every time a contract is negotiated.

Even Dan Bailey as much as I love him has a contract that is too high.

I shudder to think what Beasley is going to get. I love the guy but if you overpay him then having him as a player is no longer an advantage. It is a disadvantage. Right now he is advantage. I doubt he will be after signing his next contract. He might end up being the most overpaid no 3 receiver in the league.

The irony is the biggest difference between being huge losers (2015) and 13-3 was a qb making almost nothing and a RB on rookie contract making not a lot.

It wasn't all the overpaid fat on the team. I understand you have to pay players if you want them to re-sign but you can't just bend over without even trying to negotiate. It is a business and the salary cap negotiation is one of the things that separates the Patriots from the Cowboys.

We have more stars than the Patriots that is why we pay some of our players more. If every team in the NFL could duplicate what the Patriots have done then they wouldn't of just won their fifth super bowl.

Your spot on about Crawford but that's about it. I won't go through your whole list but players getting their second contracts are going to get paid. You aren't going to negotiate Dez Bryant out of a top 5 contract when he has had some of the best production in the league during his rookie year when he was paid peanuts. You either pay these guys or you let them walk.

Bease signed a very team friendly extension two years ago. Zeke is paid a ton. Scandrick is paid peanuts compared to a player with his experience and production and Tyron Smith is signed into one of the most team friendly contracts in NFL history. A contract so good that Dallas was investigated by the NFLPA.

 

[Tobal]

And the offseason has just begun... Thought we could make it to the beginning of the new league year before these types of threads.

That was silly

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

It's pretty easy. You pay Gronk just shy of a million dollars a game for his production. You pay Witten 7.4 million per year for his.

It's even simpler than you're trying to make it; Witten gets paid on avg. $7.4M per year; Gronk gets paid on avg. $9M per year. That's it

The argument is the same argument that I have been
making the whole time. They essentially play different roles on their team. Witten is the player who you want to move the chains, Gronk is who you want if you need a big play. Fact is, Dez gives our offense what Gronk gives to New England. It's not like our offense in general is lacking because of Witten.

Few things:

1) You're attempting to add some intrinsic value to Witten's low YPC. Gronk averages more receptions, yards per catch and yards per game and yet Witten is supposedly the "chain mover." What Gronk does is every bit of moving-the-chains.

2) You're effectively trying to marginalize Gronk as just a "big play" or red zone threat. The statistics don't support that notion. He catches passes at high volume but he's simply more of a dynamic receiving threat than Witten. Some of those 8-yard hitch passes Witten catches and goes down like a sack of bricks are plays Gronk is going to make at least the first tackler miss.

So what's really left is durability which is Witten's best asset. That's a strong asset to have but it's not a deciding factor in my mind.

 

[robjay04]

It's even simpler than you're trying to make it; Witten gets paid on avg. $7.4M per year; Gronk gets paid on avg. $9M per year. That's it



Few things:

1) You're attempting to add some intrinsic value to Witten's low YPC. Gronk averages more receptions, yards per catch and yards per game and yet Witten is supposedly the "chain mover." What Gronk does is every bit of moving-the-chains.

2) You're effectively trying to marginalize Gronk as just a "big play" or red zone threat. The statistics don't support that notion. He catches passes at high volume but he's simply more of a dynamic receiving threat than Witten. Some of those 8-yard hitch passes Witten catches and goes down like a sack of bricks are plays Gronk is going to make at least the first tackler miss.

So what's really left is durability which is Witten's best asset. That's a strong asset to have but it's not a deciding factor in my mind.

If I could trade Witten for Gronk tomorrow would I do it? Obviously.

Gronk is a better player by quite a margin. That is a fact.

This whole argument started with someone making a thread complaining about the last year of Witten's contract that has been restructured 3 times and comparing it to Witten.

As I pointed out, because of injuries, on a per game basis...Gronk makes almost double. Yes Gronk has better numbers because he is the focal point of New England's passing game when healthy. On the other hand, Dez is the focal point of our offense.

Regardless, Gronk is on the Patriots, they win rings so everything is ok BUT....if he was on this team, people would be whining that he is overpaid considering the guy can't stay on the field.

As far as pure value goes though, give me the good player making 500K a game that you can always count on over the great player you're paying one million when he's on the field.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Callin Witten a cow certainly isn't deserved. Maybe a sacred old bull?

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

If I could trade Witten for Gronk tomorrow would I do it? Obviously.

Gronk is a better player by quite a margin. That is a fact.

This whole argument started with someone making a thread complaining about the last year of Witten's contract that has been restructured 3 times and comparing it to Witten.

As I pointed out, because of injuries, on a per game basis...Gronk makes almost double. Yes Gronk has better numbers because he is the focal point of New England's passing game when healthy. On the other hand, Dez is the focal point of our offense.

Regardless, Gronk is on the Patriots, they win rings so everything is ok BUT....if he was on this team, people would be whining that he is overpaid considering the guy can't stay on the field.

As far as pure value goes though, give me the good player making 500K a game that you can always count on over the great player you're paying one million when he's on the field.

I get that you're not comparing Witten to Gronk talent-wise, but rather that you're looking at value. I just don't think you're seeing the flipside of the this.

Witten earns $7.4M avg. annually and Gronk gets $9M avg. annually. Those numbers are relatively close.

It could easily be argued that looking at their relatively similar/close annual average salaries that based off production, Witten is either overpaid or Gronk is underpaid. It would be a much different argument if Gronk was earning $14-15M per season.

 

[WoodysGirl]

That was silly

My bad.