Cowboys Sacred Cows

[JoeKing]

I didn't object to the penalties. He gets too many of them, and I imagine he'd be the first to admit it. I just think the value we get from his blocking and receiving skills, even at his age, is worth it overall. Granted, he's at a point in his contract next year when he's getting more than he's worth for the production he gives us, but that's a function of how the deal was structured. He jumps from a $1MM base/$5.8MM hit to a $7.4MM/$12.2MM hit base. Overall, though 5/$37 for Jason with the current deal is a reasonable contract as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough, I think it's about time Witten got the better part of his deal with the Cowboys. He's paid his dues to this team and more than deserves the money he'll make next season. His penalties do drive me crazy but considering how many plays he's on the field, he's earned a little latitude.

 

[pete026]

I'm not sure if you are talking about my original post or not. Romo is treated differently than Dez or Witten. My post has several layers. All three, Romo, Dez and Witten have under performed their contracts the past couple of years. Romo just tends to get vilified and Dez and Witten tend to skate as sacred cows. Romo gets plenty of **** piled on him rightly or wrongly. Personally, I think Romo can still play and his skill level is worthy of his contract. I am just not sure if his health will allow him to which is a totally valid concern with his injury history.

I would love to see Romo take a pay cut and stick around. We cannot replace Romo without taking a drop off in talent level unless we find another Dak, and I'm not sure we can bank on that. But again, that's a different conversation than my original post.

I'm not going to get into a Romo argument. I am new here but have lurched for awhile to stay up on Cowboys news. But real world; sure early in Romo's career he was vilified but he's earned and has gotten a lot of respect in say the past 4/5 years. But there are quite a few people here on CZ that are far too sensitive/scarred from those early years and are so defensive about it that they actually keep that myth alive. I even believe some of them think, in some twisted way, that it makes Romo look better. Well it doesn't and based on the type of person I believe Romo is, I'm pretty sure he would agree with that statement. But one of the reasons I started posting here is my belief that this site will not forget, but be able to move on from the Romo era. But maybe I jumped the gun based on the continued attention he gets. But I'll maintain hope.

As far as contracts, the Romo and Witten situation is common for vets towards the end of their careers. Dez isn't in that situation and needs to step it up some. But still a very good reliever. JMO.

 

[Plumfool]

And the offseason has just begun... Thought we could make it to the beginning of the new league year before these types of threads.

Told you this the other day lol. Wanna busy thread? Just post something negative about Dez.

 

[xwalker]

48 players on the active game day roster multiplied by 5 penalties per season is 240 penalties divided by 16 games is 15 penalties per game on one team.

That's ridiculous.

1. There are only 46 players active on game day.

2. Witten played 96% of the offensive snaps. He played 1102 total snaps in 2016.

3. Comparing non-starter and part-time starters to a full-time starter is silly. For example, Justin Durant had 4 penalties in 286 snaps. If he had played as many snaps as Witten, that would project to 15 penalties.

4. Free had 9 penalties, Tyron had 7 and Frederick had 5.

 

[LandryFan]

I didn't say they did. I said if every active game day player was flagged at the rate Witten is flagged(5 per season) then we would never win. Thank you for your correction of 46, not 48 active game day players but that's still 14 flags per game. We can't have players committing infractions at that rate. You're math ignores that not every player flagged is a starter and you ignore the special team penalized players too. I'm giving them all 5 penalties per season and showing how that would drastically hurt the team. We can't play with that, can't do it. But you give Witten a pass.

You keep using the term "rate", while using a raw number (5). The only way you can fairly/accurately apply "five penalties per season" as a "rate" when comparing JW to the rest of the team is if you take those other players' penalties per snap and interpolate it out using JW's number of snaps (1100, which includes 84 ST snaps).
Witten incurs .0045 penalties per play that he plays (5 penalties over 1100 snaps)...that's his "rate". If you apply the same formula to all other players to come up with their rate, then you'd have a fair comparison when comparing them to Witten.
Simply assigning every player 5 penalties per year regardless of the number of snaps played and is meaningless. For example, OScan had four penalties in 672 snaps ( .006 penalties/snap) At that rate, if he had played 1100 snaps, he would have incurred 6.6 penalties for the year. Mayowa had four penalties in 386 snaps
(.0103 penalties/snap) At that rate, he would have committed 14.3 penalties for the year had he played 1100 snaps.
Yes, Witten commits penalties, but his penalties are not killing the team. About half the team commits penalties at a higher rate than him.

 

[JoeKing]

That's ridiculous.

1. There are only 46 players active on game day.

2. Witten played 96% of the offensive snaps. He played 1102 total snaps in 2016.

3. Comparing non-starter and part-time starters to a full-time starter is silly. For example, Justin Durant had 4 penalties in 286 snaps. If he had played as many snaps as Witten, that would project to 15 penalties.

4. Free had 9 penalties, Tyron had 7 and Frederick had 5.

Sacred Cow theory is confirmed. Don't talk smack about Jason Witten at the Cowboyszone. Thanks for playing.

 

[JoeKing]

You keep using the term "rate", while using a raw number (5). The only way you can fairly/accurately apply "five penalties per season" as a "rate" when comparing JW to the rest of the team is if you take those other players' penalties per snap and interpolate it out using JW's number of snaps (1100, which includes 84 ST snaps).
Witten incurs .0045 penalties per play that he plays (5 penalties over 1100 snaps)...that's his "rate". If you apply the same formula to all other players to come up with their rate, then you'd have a fair comparison when comparing them to Witten.
Simply assigning every player 5 penalties per year regardless of the number of snaps played and is meaningless. For example, OScan had four penalties in 672 snaps ( .006 penalties/snap) At that rate, if he had played 1100 snaps, he would have incurred 6.6 penalties for the year. Mayowa had four penalties in 386 snaps
(.0103 penalties/snap) At that rate, he would have committed 14.3 penalties for the year had he played 1100 snaps.
Yes, Witten commits penalties, but his penalties are not killing the team. About half the team commits penalties at a higher rate than him.

Thanks for playing. Sacred Cow theory confirmed.

 

[xwalker]

Sacred Cow theory is confirmed. Don't talk smack about Jason Witten at the Cowbotszone. Thanks for playing.

The math is ridiculous regardless of the player involved or my opinion on the player.

p.s. I have a degree in Mathematics so fantasy math or dumb math is a pet peeve for me.

 

[JoeKing]

The math is ridiculous regardless of the player involved or my opinion on the player.

p.s. I have a degree in Mathematics so fantasy math or dumb math is a pet peeve for me.

I was just playing Devil's advocate to see if the "Sacred Cow" Iabel applies to Witten. Thanks for playing. The math is obviously bogus. But by god don't let anyone smack talk on Witten.

 

[xwalker]

Witten is the biggest sacred cow on the roster. I don't even think that is debatable. There have been serveral stories over time about how Witten didn't want to come out of the game or whatever, essentially over riding what a coach was trying to do on the field. Players don't, or shouldn't over ride a coach and a coach shouldn't let that happen.

Witten has been able to create this good guy persona (and he is a good guy) but he is also somewhat selfish and is not a team player with respect to the other tight ends on the roster. He really is a lot like Brett Favre, without coming out and saying it. He protects his spot on the team at the expense of other players playing and getting a chance to surpass him. I'm not saying it isn't smart of him to do that to protect his own wage earning, but it isn't all team friendly.

I stand by my original criticism of his contract. He is overpaid for what he brings to the team. Moreover we need to be prepared to move on and do it. I can see him running 5 yard routes when he is 50on third and 15 and we will still be talking about the record he is setting that will never be broken. Watch him play, the dude's best blocking days are far behind him.

I hope we draft a first round tight end and move on, or he pays for half of what he is making now.

Better yet trade Dez and Witten for Julio Jones or A.J. Green. Oops the other team would never do that, would they? That should tell you something.

Witten was still in his prime when he signed the contract. They could have easily moved on from that contract 2 or 3 years ago.

I agree that Witten plays too many snaps because Garrett is the Head Coach. If they had a significantly better option, then it would be an issue, but they don't and have not had better options in the past few years. I do think Escobar should have received more opportunities to catch passes, but they can't seem to scheme around having a TE that is basically a big WR that can't block. Other teams are able to scheme around those types of TEs. I'm not certain that Witten really has much to do with the Cowboys inability to scheme around a player like Escobar in order to use him as a receiver. I'm not certain that they would have made Escobar a starter even if Witten was out; although, I think he is likely a much better receiver than Hanna and probably much better than Swaim.

 

[xwalker]

I was just playing Devil's advocate to see if the "Sacred Cow" Iabel applies to Witten. Thanks for playing. The math is obviously bogus. But by god don't let anyone smack talk on Witten.

I would have replied to any post with dumb math regardless of the player involved. As I said, it's a pet peeve for me.

 

[Idgit]

Fair enough, I think it's about time Witten got the better part of his deal with the Cowboys. He's paid his dues to this team and more than deserves the money he'll make next season. His penalties do drive me crazy but considering how many plays he's on the field, he's earned a little latitude.

It's like with anything. Are you going to divorce your wife of 14 years just because year 15 rolls around and she gains 20 pounds and grows a mustache? She's otherwise been a great wife, the mother to your children, you've grown up and grown old together. Of course not.

You're going to do what everybody else does. You live with it for a year or two until you can line up a new, young Tight End on the side, and only then do you kick her off your roster. But not because she's fat. You kick her off because she's too old and you found somebody better who doesn't cost you as much. If you're lucky, her name is 'Rico.'

 

[Alexander]

The term "sacred cow" is misinterpreted a little.

What happens doesn't even fit the definition.

There are certain players that if criticized, even in the slightest, will get a beatdown. And then the fanhood card gets thrown down.

Romo, Witten and Bryant are three chief examples.

There are other universal punching bags that once they clear protocol, (i.e. not big contracts), get pounded on and the frenzy is on.

 

[LandryFan]

Thanks for playing. Sacred Cow theory confirmed.

You're missing my point. I don't consider him, or any other player a "sacred Cow", but I'm not going to use misleading stats to dnigrate him or any other player on the team. You were implying that his penalties were killing the team. I simply pointed out otherwise.

 

[big dog cowboy]

That's what I'm afraid of Williams is a below-average number 2 at Best

Still trying to figure out how he is our #2 when in realitiy it's The Bease.

 

[JoeKing]

You're missing my point. I don't consider him, or any other player a "sacred Cow", but I'm not going to use misleading stats to dnigrate him or any other player on the team. You were implying that his penalties were killing the team. I simply pointed out otherwise.

Okay, message received. Smack talk about Witten off limits. My sincere apologies.

 

[Verdict]

What's your "realistic" criticism of Dez?

Because if it doesn't involve acknowledging his foot injury in 2015 and the fact the passing attack changed under Dak had an impact on his production then it isn't realistic.

My criticism id well documents. If you think Dez is worth every penny of his $70 million dollar deal, and he is a top 5 receiver in the league, I don't think our discussion will be very fruitful.

 

[Verdict]

I didn't say they did. I said if every active game day player was flagged at the rate Witten is flagged(5 per season) then we would never win. Thank you for your correction of 46, not 48 active game day players but that's still 14 flags per game. We can't have players committing infractions at that rate. You're math ignores that not every player flagged is a starter and you ignore the special team penalized players too. I'm giving them all 5 penalties per season and showing how that would drastically hurt the team. We can't play with that, can't do it. But you give Witten a pass.

Sacred cow.

 

[robjay04]

I agree that Witten could be a progress stopper. I disagree with this post because I think Gronk is a way better player than Witten and he is a much better value. Gronk has played less and has still out performed Witten

Witten
393 catches
3,979 yards
22 touchdowns
80 starts
7.4 million per year, roughly $462,500 made per game started

Gronk
273 catches
4,222 yards
41 touchdowns
48 starts
9 million per year, roughly $937,500 per game started

Is Gronk a better player? Absolutely but he is also paid more. You said he is a better value and has outperformed Witten, I disagree wholeheartedly based on the numbers I posted above from the last 5 years. Yes, Gronk has more touchdowns, that is his role on his team--he is the redzone threat on a team without a big receiver. We have Dez for that and Dez rivals Gronk in touchdowns.

Witten is a reliable asset that is dependable on 3rd downs and he never misses a game. Gronk is making almost double what Witten is making per game started.

Gronk is the best tight end to ever play the game if he can actually stay on the field. I would rather have a steady player that plays every game than a great player that plays some games.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

"Dez Bryant" and "immune to criticism." Hmm.

Jason Witten is immune because he's consistently good.

Is the thread over after this?