cowboys secondary vs. Commanders wr

[Gamebreaker]

it's called Flozell Adams getting healthy. Educate thyself. Our offense was quite good with Flo, and Bledsoe was the top ranked passer in the NFC. Guess that's all "slipped" your mind.

So Flozell Adams is going to play both tackle positions? That's funny. Too bad this is reality and reality doesn't work that way. Sorry.

 

[kartr]

this topic is ridiculous. the skins beat the boys by a combined score of what? 47-20 last year?

the skins did this with ONE WR. they've just added 2 more starters at WR.

this is not tough.

i forgot to mention- 6 passing TD's vs that scary dallas secondary....with ONE WR.

I suggested that we draft another corner, such as Richard Marshall or Kelly Jennings and was told our current corners were good enough. You see what I have to put up with. I also suggested that drafting Jason Campbell was a good move by you guys and was told that 'he stinks', now you've traded away Ramsey, who I thought was crap, for a bag chips. I also suggested that we should have drafted Campbell to stick it to the Skins and was again bashed, but what do I know.

 

[Gamebreaker]

The original point, if you go back and read, was that the Skins are building a team through free agency, while neglecting the draft, and that this has never worked. So, to refute that, you present me with drafted players who are no longer with the team? Makes perfect sense.

Yet you neglect to think it's possible their replacements won't be already on the roster. Pierce's replacement, Lemar Marshall, was already on the team and did an exceptional job for playing MLB for the first time. 'Educate thyself'. lol

 

[Gamebreaker]

The offseason just started. Not to mention having Henry back healthy will be huge. Lloyd was 83rd as a #1. There's a chance that could get worse. He only catches 44% of the balls thrown at him as it is, what happens when he gets less opportunites?

His QB was rookie Alex Smith, who was horrendous last season. None of the other QBs on the roster were much better. But somehow, I guess that had nothing to do it, right?

 

[kartr]

Funny, Skins fans couldn't give Dallas one ounce of respect back in 2003 when they went 10-6 and made the playoffs.

According to Skins fans, we just played an easy schedule.




Rich...........

Some Cowboys fans have said the same thing about that 2003 team, to my dismay.

 

[kartr]

An upgrade none the less. I didn't use Thrash because he was injured often last season and Taylor Jacobs actually played more. Jacobs just couldn't get open to save his life.

Stats are fine, but they never tell the whole story. Do the stats show Brandon Lloyd was the only recieving option for the Niners? Is it too much of a stretch to suggest he'll see far less double teams, or rarely see the opposing teams best corner when he's playing alongside Santana? Come on, are you just trying to win an argument or do you even care who's right in this matter?

And look who Lloyd had throwing to him, Tim 'journeyman' Rattay, who is playing behind ugh, Chris Simms in Tampa. They don't get it cause they dont want to get it.

 

[Gamebreaker]

Yeah, I guess that is why they moved this thread to an different forum. Is that what happens when they lose an argument? lol.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

So Flozell Adams is going to play both tackle positions? That's funny. Too bad this is reality and reality doesn't work that way. Sorry.

Bledsoe's QB rating with Flozell in 2005 = 100

Bledsoe's QB rating w/o Flozell in 2005 = 72

Flozell can't play both tackle positions. But with him in the lineup, Dallas was able to get help from the TE's and Key to protect Petitti and leave Flozell by himself.

The loss of Flozell was as great if not greater than the Skins losing Jansen in 2004.


Rich...........

 

[superpunk]

Indeed. Our WR corps was pretty banged up last year as well. We all like healthy.

No doubt.

Lloyd was 83rd with a rookie QB throwing him the ball and a rookie head coach calling the plays. There's a chance that could get better.

Could....yes. There's a chance it could get worse. We can't legitimately argue what might happen. It could go either way. As of right now, you replaced the 89th ranked receiver with the 83rd.

Besides, that percentage stat is terribly misleading. It includes ALL balls throw a WRs way. Not just catchable balls. Again with a more accurate QB throwing the ball to him that percentage might just go up.

It might seem misleading, but the stat doesn't seem to vary alot from year to year for receivers. Obviously there can always be exceptions, but look at Santana Moss, for one - he caught 63% of the passes in 03, 58% in 04, and 63% in 05 - not much variation. Lloyd caught 47% in 03, 48% in 04, and 44% in 05. So, it's a stat that's relative for all players, and it seems to be a good indicator. I'm not denying he COULD improve, but it's hardly his track record, and that's all we have to go on.

Thanks for the well-thought out post.

 

[superpunk]

So Flozell Adams is going to play both tackle positions? That's funny. Too bad this is reality and reality doesn't work that way. Sorry.

Research Bledsoe's numbers pre- and post-Flozell's injury. One player, particularly a LT, can make QUITE a difference.

 

[superpunk]

His QB was rookie Alex Smith, who was horrendous last season. None of the other QBs on the roster were much better. But somehow, I guess that had nothing to do it, right?

Well, the highest he's gotten for his career is 48%, so I'd say the number is pretty indicative of the type of receiver he is. Add to that, the fact that his teammate, Arnez Battle, caught 60% of the passes thrown his way, from the very same QBs, and I think you get a pretty accurate picture of Lloyd's hands.

 

[superpunk]

And look who Lloyd had throwing to him, Tim 'journeyman' Rattay, who is playing behind ugh, Chris Simms in Tampa. They don't get it cause they dont want to get it.

For his career, Tim Rattay has a better QB rating than Eli Manning, Chris Simms, and even your boy Q.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Yeah, I guess that is why they moved this thread to an different forum. Is that what happens when they lose an argument? lol.

Actually it's when discussions contain too much mud in them from all the slinging going on versus actual football talk.

However, it seems to be back on track...



So carry-on fellas.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Yeah, I guess that is why they moved this thread to an different forum. Is that what happens when they lose an argument? lol.

You know if you don't like it...nobody is stopping you from leaving.

 

[superpunk]

Actually it's when discussions contain too much mud in them from all the slinging going on versus actual football talk.

However, it seems to be back on track...



So carry-on fellas.

I'm bein' good, ma. :laugh2:

 

[Henry]

Could....yes. There's a chance it could get worse. We can't legitimately argue what might happen. It could go either way. As of right now, you replaced the 89th ranked receiver with the 83rd.

Clearly nothing is written in stone. You said he could be worse based on a certain factor. I was simply saying based on other factors he could be better. If you just want to say you don't know one way or the other, I'm fine with that. But that wasn't your initial argument.

In any case, I think he's better than what we had last year. And that's what we're talking about, isnt it? As of right now, we've replaced the Didn't-Even-Make-The-List with the 83rd. The 89th was replaced by the 75th. That's not quite as insignificant as you are making it out to be.

It might seem misleading, but the stat doesn't seem to vary alot from year to year for receivers. Obviously there can always be exceptions, but look at Santana Moss, for one - he caught 63% of the passes in 03, 58% in 04, and 63% in 05 - not much variation. Lloyd caught 47% in 03, 48% in 04, and 44% in 05. So, it's a stat that's relative for all players, and it seems to be a good indicator. I'm not denying he COULD improve, but it's hardly his track record, and that's all we have to go on.

In 03, Lloyd caught all of 14 passes. That year doesn't have a big enough sample size for statistics to have any relevance. In 04 and 05, Lloyd had a revolving door of QBs throwing him the ball, from Rattay to Dorsey to Smith, and none of them any good. Rattay, an average backup at best, is the best of the bunch (until Smith grows as a player.)

Comparatively, Moss had Pennington, a little Vinnie, and Brunell throwing him the ball. The worst of that bunch is better than the best of Lloyd's. Easily.

Lack of variation on this stat for either player isn't suprising given those circumstances, but I think basing his future play on a stat so dependant on QBs is a bit simplistic. Saying it's all we have to go on really doesn't bolster your case. It simply reinforces the point that the numbers are far from complete or accurate. And it's probably why most everyone who analyzes a WRs value looks at catches, yards and TDs. In those far more tangible categories Lloyd is a huge upgrade for us. So is Randel El for that matter.

 

[Rack]

based on how it looks right now,does this matchup look favorable to you guys,or do you feel the skins have a advantage here..example (moss and lloyd split wide,randle el in the slot)can your secondary defend this as we stand to date?

Yes. Secondary is the strength of the cowboys defense.

In 04 and 05, Lloyd had a revolving door of QBs throwing him the ball, from Rattay to Dorsey to Smith, and none of them any good.

And now he'll have the great Mark Brunell tossing him ducks... errr... I mean passes.

 

[superpunk]

Clearly nothing is written in stone. You said he could be worse based on a certain factor. I was simply saying based on other factors he could be better. If you just want to say you don't know one way or the other, I'm fine with that. But that wasn't your initial argument.

My initial argument was that based on Lloyd's production in the past, and his inability to hang onto the ball, he's not a huge upgrade over what you had there already. He's not going to get as many opportunities. I never attempted to say that he could get better or worse - that's pointless speculation, and an argument noone can win. But, based on trends he's established so far, I see no reason to be WOWed by him.

In any case, I think he's better than what we had last year. And that's what we're talking about, isnt it? As of right now, we've replaced the Didn't-Even-Make-The-List with the 83rd. The 89th was replaced by the 75th. That's not quite as insignificant as you are making it out to be.

So your contention is that Lloyd will be the #3? Whoever sits in that spot will have his numbers drop appreciably. I looked through the list, and I didn't see a single #3 receiver ranked - save for ones who stepped up due to injury to higher ranked players.

In 03, Lloyd caught all of 14 passes. That year doesn't have a big enough sample size for statistics to have any relevance. In 04 and 05, Lloyd had a revolving door of QBs throwing him the ball, from Rattay to Dorsey to Smith, and none of them any good. Rattay, an average backup at best, is the best of the bunch (until Smith grows as a player.)

Comparatively, Moss had Pennington, a little Vinnie, and Brunell throwing him the ball. The worst of that bunch is better than the best of Lloyd's. Easily.

Tim Rattay has a completetion percentage for his career over 60%. Dorsey 54%, but he only started 10 games with the 49ers. Obviously there were some players on that team, catching a higher percentage of passes thrown. The QB excuse is really nothing more than a cop-out. Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald have crap (although somewhat better crap) throwing to them, and they each have catch percentages over 60. Derrick Mason actually improved his catch percentage this year, playing with Kyle Boller, rather than Steve McNair and Billy Volek.

Lack of variation on this stat for either player isn't suprising given those circumstances, but I think basing his future play on a stat so dependant on QBs is a bit simplistic. Saying it's all we have to go on really doesn't bolster your case. It simply reinforces the point that the numbers are far from complete or accurate. And it's probably why most everyone who analyzes a WRs value looks at catches, yards and TDs. In those far more tangible categories Lloyd is a huge upgrade for us. So is Randel El for that matter.

Catches, yards, and TDs are all relative, as well. Lloyd put up #2 receiver numbers as a #1 previously. Randle El averages 500 yards and 1.75 TDs per year, and did worse when they bumped him up to a #2 - which is where you have him. In two years starting as a #1, Lloyd averages 650 yards and 5.5 TDs per year. As a #3 receiver, those numbers are bound to decline.

Bottom line, Lloyd has a reputation as a player who will make some great catches, and drop just as many easy ones, lacking focus. I toook that reputation, and what I've seen of him, and looked for facts and statistics to see if it had an merit.

Turns out it does.

 

[superpunk]

Comparatively, Moss had Pennington, a little Vinnie, and Brunell throwing him the ball. The worst of that bunch is better than the best of Lloyd's. Easily.

Forgot to mention this in my above response - during the 2003-2004 seasons, Chad Pennington missed 10 of 32 games. He was replaced by Vinny Testaverde (better than Rattay, I suppose you could say - but not much), and Quincy Carter (not better than Rattay, by any stretch - so the above exageration, is false). As I mentioned earlier, Moss' catch percentage hardly wavered. It shows consistency by the player. Lloyd is consistently sub-par, in that department.

It's a decent enough stat, from what I've seen. Semetimes we don't like what the facts and stats show us - but they're there.

 

[riggo]

Yes. Secondary is the strength of the cowboys defense.





And now he'll have the great Mark Brunell tossing him ducks... errr... I mean passes.

don't mean to be redundant, but that old QB torched your 'strength' last year. 6 TD's, 1 INT.


serious question- cowboys fans bring up how dr z ranked newman the best cover corner in the league statistically. given that the skins had one real threat at WR, why didnt zimmer adjust to have newman on moss, rather then play sides of the field? i also have questioned why moss wasnt double covered last year. even in the second game, he beat glenn again on his one big catch on single coverage with roy coming over late. what is zimmer thinking?