cowboys secondary vs. Commanders wr

[Gamebreaker]

Dallas' drafts the last few years:

Roy Williams (Top 3 safety, 2nd best SS)
Terence Newman (Top 10 corner)
Jason Witten (3rd best TE in football)
Julius Jones (Looks to have the talent to be an elite back)
Demarcus Ware (2nd in ROY voting, 2nd among rookies with 8 sacks)
Marcus Spears (In what little time he had, looks like a future star in the 3-4)

Commanders' drafts the last few years:
Sean Taylor (About to go to jail)
Carlos Rogers (aka Toast)
???????

If you want to do this, at least TRY to be accurate.

You've neglected, and probably intentionally...
Chris Cooley (nearly made pro bowl, very productive H-back)
Derrick Dockery (solid starter)
Chris Samuels (pro bowl LT)

Furthermore, Roy Williams can't be a Top 3 safety when he can't cover to save his life. Julius Jones hasn't proven a damn thing in this league, and what kind of 'future star' does Marcus Spears look like with his 1.5 sack in 2005?

 

[riggo]

Building through the draft is great. It's my preferred method of building a team.

Gibbs, however, has never built through the draft relative to his peers. During his first run, the one where he won three superbowls, he made four first round picks in twelve years. Traded all the rest away, and the Commanders averaged fewer picks than rounds back then. Only one defensive starter and five offensive starters (only one of them a skill position player) played in all three Gibbs Superbowls. Roster turnover does not bother Gibbs. Never has.

The only area on those teams that was built through the draft and did not experience a high turnover was the Offensive Line. Guess what? Three of our current five offensive linemen were Commander draft picks. Four of the five of them will be playing their fourth year together.

Gibbs has proven he can win this way before. The only difference this time around is that there's a cap, and apparently that's not a big problem for the Commanders. If it becomes one, I'd be happy to revisit this discussion. But until then, all this talk about HAVING to build through the draft rings hollow to anyone that has follow Gibbs throughout his head coaching career. That's never been his style, and he wins anyway.

As far as our WRs vs. your DBs go ... I think that depends on your pass rush. Some of you may bank on Parcells re-working his defense to compensate for Moss, and that may happen. However, don't forget that in addition to the two new WRs, we added this guy named Al Saunders tothe coaching staff, who I'm guessing may add a few new wrinkles on our end as well to create favorable matchups.

In any event, the Cowboys look pretty strong defensively. I'd expect no less from a Parcells team. Offensively, I'm not so sure. But I guess that's for another thread.

good stuff.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

rich,

correct me if i'm wrong, but, for all the crap the skins get about FA and the draft, i believe that since 99, the skins have had 2 more first round picks than dallas. and the vast majority have been nice picks.

how many players are still with dallas since 99?

1999 was 7 years ago. That's AGES in NFL time. Pittsburgh had 19 starters that they either drafted or signed as an undrafted FA on this year's SB team. How many were with them since 1999?

4.

dont forget that 2 years ago, your RB came through FA

What's that have to do with the current roster?

What's that even have to do with last year's roster?

Jones, Barber, and Thompson are guys that Dallas drafted or signed as an undrafted free agent.

your currrent QB was a FA, and up til yesterday, and possible again- your best WR was a FA. that's just the offense.

Yes, and coincidentally the offense isn't very good.

However, overall, the Cowboys are on pace to have 14 starters that were guys they either drafted or signed as an undrafted free agent.

Rich...........

 

[Gamebreaker]

I wonder if Skins fans realize our 'Boys finished the '05 season ranked #2 in completion percentage allowed. And that's while playing coverage liabilities like Davis/Pile at FS and Fujita at SOLB.

I also wonder if they are aware that Henry was playing hurt when Lloyd had that career day against him.

I'm sure they understand they've been collecting WRs that have so far proven to be little more than #3 receivers to fill their #2 position. That is one rediculously large bonus, and far too much value in terms of draft picks, for a coupla guys who've never cracked 50 recs. For those kinds of prices it would've been nice if they'd at least been able to land the physical, possession receiver that would have better complimented their undersized burner already on the roster.

If we upgrade FS and/or SOLB and/or are healthy when we meet next, I can't wait to see who's # gets called to go across the middle. I'm sure Roy will be lickin' his chops at the prospect of leveling one of those smurfs.

Brandon Lloyd was the Niners #1 option, how is he no better than a #3 reciever? I can understand Randle El, who I feel is better off in the slot. Yet to even Randle El's defense, the Steelers pass the ball less than the majority of the teams in this league. And Big Ben is arguably the worst starter to win a Superbowl. They should be very lucky Hines Ward is so damn good, because Ben locks onto him an awful lot.

IF you upgrade at FS then I can see your secondary being able to handle our recievers better. Yet there is no guarantee that is going to happen.

 

[superpunk]

If you want to do this, at least TRY to be accurate.

You've neglected, and probably intentionally...
Chris Cooley (nearly made pro bowl, very productive H-back)
Derrick Dockery (solid starter)
Chris Samuels (pro bowl LT)

You would think you'd notice that he only went back to 02. So he only missed Cooley and Dockery.

Furthermore, Roy Williams can't be a Top 3 safety when he can't cover to save his life.

Horribly inaccurate.

Julius Jones hasn't proven a damn thing in this league, and what kind of 'future star' does Marcus Spears look like with his 1.5 sack in 2005?

JJ has shown falshes, but you're right, he hasn't proved much. But he is a contributor, and solid player. If you want Dockery in there to pad your stats, Julius belongs, since he has more rushing yards through his first 21 games than any Cowboys, ever.

Marcus Spears is a 3-4 DE. Their job is to occupy blockers, not so much get sacks. He was also injured, and didn't come on til after the midpoint of last season.

If you have this little understanding of the game, and the Cowboys, you might want to study up before posting again.

 

[billyrags]

based on how it looks right now,does this matchup look favorable to you guys,or do you feel the skins have a advantage here..example (moss and lloyd split wide,randle el in the slot)can your secondary defend this as we stand to date?

I've thought long and hard about this and decided that I don't really care as long as the Boys win.

To answer your question - I'll put our CBs as a group up against any receiving core - including the greatest recieving core ever purchased, "The Vaunted Commanders".

 

[Gamebreaker]

7 sacks? Oh, you mean when we were sporting El Toreador Tucker and Pettiti at tackle. It's not like that will be different at all next year.

You're right, slaying trolls is fun.

And who have you replaced them with?

 

[kartr]

They got better WR's than they had before. And it's a better WR corp than the one that beat us twice last year. Wake up people....

Exactly.

 

[superpunk]

And who have you replaced them with?

it's called Flozell Adams getting healthy. Educate thyself. Our offense was quite good with Flo, and Bledsoe was the top ranked passer in the NFC. Guess that's all "slipped" your mind.

 

[Gamebreaker]

ahhh his newest alter ego ......

We are not all the same person. Ask your moderator about our IP addresses if you like. But why would you, when posting nonsense every 5 minutes is your only contribution to this discussion.

No wait, I'll save you the effort....

 

[cleverusername]

Educate thyself, troll!

 

[Gamebreaker]

You just continue to dig your hole deeper, don't you?

The Skins actually looked like they knew what they were doing last year. Stay put in the draft, draft need, don't go nuts in free agency....and guess what? They had some success. As for your examples of developing late round players.....please jsut stop now.

Antonio Pierce - not with the team.

Ryan Clark - not with the team.

And those are exactly the kind of players teams need for continued success. I believe it was mentioned earlier that your team has 7 starters that they actually drafted. That means 68% of your starting lineup comes from free agency.

I repeat - this has NEVER worked.

Why don't you stay on topic? Your point changes every 5 seconds. You wanted to talk about players we've developed into good starters. Pierce and Clark are two of those, just because they are no longer with this team doesn't change the fact our coaching staff molded them into what they are today. Futhermore, it only shows that very same coaching staff could do just as good, or better, with their replacements.

Who's digging a hole? In this discussion, I'm so far above you can read the nike logo on the soles of my shoe.

 

[superpunk]

Why don't you stay on topic? Your point changes every 5 seconds. You wanted to talk about players we've developed into good starters. Pierce and Clark are two of those, just because they are no longer with this team doesn't change the fact our coaching staff molded them into what they are today. Futhermore, it only shows that very same coaching staff could do just as good, or better, with their replacements.

Who's digging a hole? In this discussion, I'm so far above you can read the nike logo on the soles of my shoe.

The original point, if you go back and read, was that the Skins are building a team through free agency, while neglecting the draft, and that this has never worked. So, to refute that, you present me with drafted players who are no longer with the team? Makes perfect sense.

 

[Gamebreaker]

Funny, Skins fans couldn't give Dallas one ounce of respect back in 2003 when they went 10-6 and made the playoffs.

According to Skins fans, we just played an easy schedule.




Rich...........

Well you obviously couldn't say that about our schedule last season. Whether your schedule was easy or not is inconsequential. Personally, I feel like you can only play the games you're scheduled. It doesn't matter if their difficult or not, just get a W.

 

[Henry]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

Compare Lloyd, and Randle El to Givens. Jacobs was atrocious, no doubt, but didn't Thrash occupy more of the #3 spot? In any case, he had more balls thrown his way.

If you look at that site, which is quite good in terms of statistical evaluation, you'll see that El was ranked 75th, and Lloyd ranked 83rd. Patten was ranked 89.

Huge upgrade.

...

According to this chart, it appears our last year's #2 and #3 WRs were ranked 89th and ... 25th or so on the Not Worthy Enough To Even Make The List list. Call it 115th?

Yeah, I'd say that 75th and 83rd is a significant upgrade over that. Add to the fact that Patten is 32 and Thrash is 30 while Randel El is 26 and Lloyd is 24. You can argue about the dollars all you want, but on the field Randel El and Lloyd do represent a much better tandem than Patten and Thrash on any chart.

... what upgrades have you all made in your secondary again?

 

[superpunk]

...

According to this chart, it appears our last year's #2 and #3 WRs were ranked 89th and ... 25th or so not worthy enough to even make the list list. Call it 115th?

Yeah, I'd say that 75th and 83rd is a significant upgrade over that. Add to the fact that Patten is 32 and Thrash is 30 while Randel El is 26 and Lloyd is 24. You can argue about the dollars all you want, but on the field Randel El and Lloyd do represent a much better tandem than Patten and Thrash on any chart.

... what upgrades have you all made in your secondary again?

The offseason just started. Not to mention having Henry back healthy will be huge. Lloyd was 83rd as a #1. There's a chance that could get worse. He only catches 44% of the balls thrown at him as it is, what happens when he gets less opportunites?

 

[kartr]

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not the Commanders have an advantage.

The illegal contact rules give the Commanders that advantage.
Whether slight or huge, it is still an advantage.

Case closed.

I begrudgingly give you that one,plus, all of your top receivers,top rb,te are all under 30 and if Campbell steps up, and I assume he has since Ramsey was traded for a pitance, you guys could be scary with Al Saunders running the show. I told these guys that the Skins weren't going to finish in 4th place last year and I also told them that you could make the playoffs, if not the superbowl and they said I was crazy and called me a Skins Troll. You see, this is a homer board and they only want to here the good stuff. With that, good luck to you, I've always had deep respect for Joe Gibbs even while rooting for the Boys and I believe he has got you guys on the right track. Stop by anytime, it's refreshing to here a different point of view.

 

[Gamebreaker]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

Compare Lloyd, and Randle El to Givens. Jacobs was atrocious, no doubt, but didn't Thrash occupy more of the #3 spot? In any case, he had more balls thrown his way.

If you look at that site, which is quite good in terms of statistical evaluation, you'll see that El was ranked 75th, and Lloyd ranked 83rd. Patten was ranked 89.

Huge upgrade.

An upgrade none the less. I didn't use Thrash because he was injured often last season and Taylor Jacobs actually played more. Jacobs just couldn't get open to save his life.

Stats are fine, but they never tell the whole story. Do the stats show Brandon Lloyd was the only recieving option for the Niners? Is it too much of a stretch to suggest he'll see far less double teams, or rarely see the opposing teams best corner when he's playing alongside Santana? Come on, are you just trying to win an argument or do you even care who's right in this matter?

 

[Gamebreaker]

I actually did the research myself.

Rich..........

That's cool, I'm thorough like that myself. When I find the time I'll check it out myself just for the hell of it. For the time being, I'll take your word for it though.

 

[Henry]

The offseason just started. Not to mention having Henry back healthy will be huge.

Indeed. Our WR corps was pretty banged up last year as well. We all like healthy.

Lloyd was 83rd as a #1. There's a chance that could get worse.

Lloyd was 83rd with a rookie QB throwing him the ball and a rookie head coach calling the plays. There's a chance that could get better.

He only catches 44% of the balls thrown at him as it is, what happens when he gets less opportunites?

Patten averaged 9.9 yards per catch while Lloyd averaged 15.3. Perhaps the the throws coming Lloyd's way weren't of the high-percentage variety that Patten was getting. Besides, that percentage stat is terribly misleading. It includes ALL balls throw a WRs way. Not just catchable balls. Again with a more accurate QB throwing the ball to him that percentage might just go up.