Crayton is a # 2 ??!!

iceberg

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i guess by how much of one is the question. do you bring in a guy for a year or stick with a guy you've got 3 years in?

johnson could have been interesting, but i don't see the other two as much more than gypsy wr's looking for a home.
 

Sonny#9

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Kilyin;2167028 said:
Did you just add the first part? I know it wasn't there before, because then it would have made sense.

Yeah...I figured it made more sense that way too ;)
 

TellerMorrow34

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ABQCOWBOY;2166803 said:
You are, of course, intitled to your opinion. I have to say, however, that I do not share it. The running game did not disappear in the second half. It was limited because of the defense played against it and even then, Barber averaged 3.42 yards per carry in the 3rd quarter on 7 rushes. In the 4th quarter, he only had 4 carries for 4 yards against a stacked run defense and of those 4 carries, 3 or them were on first down when the Giants were run blitzing. I don't think the running game disappeared. I think the running game did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is make the defense commit to stopping the run and giving the passing game a chance for one on one coverage. That's exactly what we had in the second half. We just couldn't make a catch.

There may have been lots of reasons for losing but that does not change the fact that one catch would have iced the game.

The reasons for losing may have been different in years past but at the end of the day, they are still first round plane tickets home. Championships are what count so what difference does it make if we are 13-3 going home in the first round or 5-11 not going to the playoffs? It's about championships. To say that we are fine because we were 13-3 is just not relative to the central issue IMO. Those who say that we don't need any WRs because we were 13-3 are not seeing the complete picture IMO. If you wish to view that as weak, that is your affair. None the less, 13-3 is not relative to the central issue of our WR depth. No amount of "Weak" is going to change that.

If we say that it was a 3rd CB that cost us the game or contributed greatly to that lose, OK, I can go ahead live with that, to an extent. I would throw in penalties as well but again, one catch and that game is over. Our defense gave up 7 points in the second half. Our offense scored only 3. Hard for me to place a lot of blame on the defense, at all, when I look at those numbers.

I'll take 13-3 and a first round playoff exit over going 5-11.
 

TellerMorrow34

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iceberg;2166813 said:
i stopped reading here. go be stupid elsewhere. my ignore list just grew cause of your inane desire to redefine stupidity.


I just want to point out that I don't think he was trying to make the point that you have to have two valid number ones. His point, as was mine with Cincy, is that two #1 options doesn't necassarily translate into success or mean anything.

I'm not sure if that is what you two are fighting about, or not, but it sure seems like you guys are fighting over pretty much nothing.
 

TellerMorrow34

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ABQCOWBOY;2166866 said:
Ice, I don't know if this was directed to me or not but I will go ahead and try to answer.

First of all, I broke down the first half and second half of the season last year, especially the last part of the season and I saw a decided drop off in the offensive output. Now, one can say that this was related to the injury that TO faced and in part that might be true. However, the drop off came prior to the injury. I believe teams figured us out and started playing us better once they figured out what defensive scheme would work on us. Even if it was due to an injury and I could certainly go along with that but even that further illustrates the point that we were not as succesful as we might have believed ourselves to be last year. We had an unbelievable start to the season, from an offensive stand point but we did drop off at the end. That worries me a bit.

As to what would I have done, well, that is the question. I will say that I do not believe the possability of signing a top 5 WR has really presented itself. At least, not at a sane price. Those who believe this, IMO, are probably not in the best position to tell if we have ever really had the chance to do a deal. However, if it were me, I would have made a very serious run at signing somebody who could have stepped in and played the 2 or even the 3 at WR. I probably would have tried much harder to sign a guy like Bryant Johnson out of Az. I mean, I know you never know the whole story but to me, he would have been a guy who we could have signed relatively reasonably and gotten value out of the signing. Maybe Darrell Jackson. I would definatly have went out and tried to sign Keary Colbert. To me, he would have been a real good signing for us.

In the end, I know that hindsight is always 20/20 but these are a few of the things I probably would have tried to do. JMO

Ok let me see...

So you'd have got Bryant Johnson. Now the problem with our situation, as I've seen it complained about here many times, is that we don't have a great #2 WR option if Owens goes down. And you'd have went after Johnson to fill this? Please. The guy was expendable as a 3rd WR in Arizona because he sucked. He wouldn't have even beat PC out for the #2 spot.

Then next on the list is Darrell Jackson. Are we talking about the same Darrell Jackson that was SO GREAT last year that a WR deprived offense in San Fransico was all to happy to depart with him? Again, no. Jackson couldn't have beaten out PC either.

Finally there is Keary Colbert. Now I'll admit I don't know as much about Keary, as the other two, but that's because I think he's actually played even less ball than the other two. Again you're talking about a guy from a team who is WR deficient, beyond Steve Smith, and they were thinking of letting him leave (Maybe they did I didn't pay attention enough to him) as your answer for our #2 spot?

I agree with Ice that there was simply no, viable, option out there to bring in at the number two spot and you've reenforced that fact by giving 3 options here, none of whom would have been able to beat out PC for the #2 spot.

Like Ice said it wasn't that Jerry missed the ball on getting the job done it simply was that there were no real options out there. The options of Chad Johnson, Roy Williams, and Boldin were never real options. Those teams obviously had no desire to ever deal any of those guys because if they had they'd have taken the insane offers that the Eagles or Commanders were throwing out there to them to get those guys.
 

iceberg

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BraveHeartFan;2167753 said:
I just want to point out that I don't think he was trying to make the point that you have to have two valid number ones. His point, as was mine with Cincy, is that two #1 options doesn't necassarily translate into success or mean anything.

I'm not sure if that is what you two are fighting about, or not, but it sure seems like you guys are fighting over pretty much nothing.

probably.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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BraveHeartFan;2167762 said:
Ok let me see...

So you'd have got Bryant Johnson. Now the problem with our situation, as I've seen it complained about here many times, is that we don't have a great #2 WR option if Owens goes down. And you'd have went after Johnson to fill this? Please. The guy was expendable as a 3rd WR in Arizona because he sucked. He wouldn't have even beat PC out for the #2 spot.

Then next on the list is Darrell Jackson. Are we talking about the same Darrell Jackson that was SO GREAT last year that a WR deprived offense in San Fransico was all to happy to depart with him? Again, no. Jackson couldn't have beaten out PC either.

Finally there is Keary Colbert. Now I'll admit I don't know as much about Keary, as the other two, but that's because I think he's actually played even less ball than the other two. Again you're talking about a guy from a team who is WR deficient, beyond Steve Smith, and they were thinking of letting him leave (Maybe they did I didn't pay attention enough to him) as your answer for our #2 spot?

I agree with Ice that there was simply no, viable, option out there to bring in at the number two spot and you've reenforced that fact by giving 3 options here, none of whom would have been able to beat out PC for the #2 spot.

Like Ice said it wasn't that Jerry missed the ball on getting the job done it simply was that there were no real options out there. The options of Chad Johnson, Roy Williams, and Boldin were never real options. Those teams obviously had no desire to ever deal any of those guys because if they had they'd have taken the insane offers that the Eagles or Commanders were throwing out there to them to get those guys.


If you read my opinions on this matter, I clearly stated, more then once, that I did not believe options were available to us. Ice asked me what I would have done if I could have. I explained what I would have done, if I could have. I don't agree with you on Johnson but that's here nor there. The guy was expendable in Arizona because his contract was up and they couldn't afford to keep him. They can't afford to keep Boldin but yeah, it's because he sucked. I'm certain your correct.


Jackson had a poor year in San Francisco but nobody had a good year in San Francisco last year. Why is that? If you can't keep your QB upright, chances are pretty slim that you may actually be able to complete passes to any WR. That's just kinda how it works. The leading receivers on the team were Gore with 53 and Vernon Davis with 52. When your RBs and TEs are your leading receivers, that's usually and indication that you've shortened up the offense because your having problems protecting your QB long enough to execute longer developing routes, such as the ones your WRs usually run. I think that there is more to the poor season in San Francisco then, "Oh, he sucked." If you look at it objectively, you take into consideration that it was Jackson's first year in that offense and he had never played with those players. You also have to consider that San Francisco gave up 55 sacks last year. San Fran had 4 different guys play QB for them last year because they could not keep anybody healthy. Brand new OC as well. There were a lot of reasons Jackson didn't do well in San Francisco last year but again, nobody really did all that well in the offense. It's not a Jackson thing, IMO. It was more a San Fran thing. I mean, you have to look at the guy for all the years in the NFL. 8 seasons as a starter in the NFL. Not many WRs are starters in their Rookie year. Not only was he a starter but he was a starter for a team who made the playoffs 4 years straight and went to the SuperBowl. He lead Seattle in Receiving 4 of the seven seasons he was there. His Rookie year, 2005 (Injury Season in which he only played in 6 games) and 2002 (2nd leading receiver behind Koren Robinson that year) were the only times he did not lead his team. This player has 104 starts in the NFL. I'm not saying he's TO but I am saying that He's not just, "A Guy". Just a guy kinds of players don't enjoy the success he has had in the NFL 8 seasons. Signing a player like that, especially to a 1 year deal, would not have been a bad thing, IMO. I mean, your saying that Jackson had a horrible season in San Francisco last year but treating Crayton as if he's so far superior to Jackson. Crayton only caught 50 passes last year in a much better offense. Would Crayton have been able to have the kind of season he had for us last year in San Francisco? I seriously doubt it. I think that to say Jackson is not as good as Crayton is delusional. At this point in there careers, I think it's clear that Jackson is the better player. Now, will Crayton develop into a better WR? Perhaps but just to equal the type of WR Jackson is, Crayton will have to put up 3 1000 yard plus seasons. It's foolish, IMO, to say that a guy like Jackson could not have helped us. Even if you just say that TO and Crayton are our starters (which BTW, I did say with respects to Jackson), you can not tell me that he would not have been better then Miles, Hurd, Stanback or any of the other options we currently have at WR. His starting experience alone would have been valuable IMO.

Colbert was stricktly proposed as depth and a 3rd WR option. I never suggested he was our #2 WR. I would have signed the guy because he did show more then any of our WRs not named TO, in 8 games last year. The guy looked to me like he was really coming around. That plus the fact that he has 40 starts in the NFL make him valuable to a team that would be faced with the option of starting Crayton and Hurd, Austin or Stanback if TO were injured. The real issue for me, and it has been pretty much all along, is the fact that outside of TO and Crayton, we have a total of 4 games started between all the WRs on our roster. To me, when you know TO has only had one injury free season his entire career, that's a bit of a concern and there is nobody who is going to tell me that any of these guys couldn't have helped us in that regard, this season. It's just not reasonable to believe that IMO.
 

Velvet Jones

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Joe Rod;2166903 said:
I only dip cherry flavored. Fresh breath is important when you have a big wad of slobbering mess being spit out of your mouth, don't want to scare off the ladies! :)

Great! I am eating and now I have to picture you, Ice, and a big wad of slobbering mess in your mouth... :mad:
 

JohnnyHopkins

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Velvet Jones;2168119 said:
Great! I am eating and now I have to picture you, Ice, and a big wad of slobbering mess in your mouth... :mad:

Just remember, I'm not the one that went there! ;)
 

Kangaroo

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iceberg;2166877 said:
bryant johnson could be interesting. but, would you call him a solid/dependable #2 or more roster churning and hoping your gut feelings pay off?
.

Is Bryant more of an upgrade than Crayton ? I mean he was flanked by Larry and Boldin so he should be catching footballs
 

cowboys2233

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Kangaroo;2168215 said:
Is Bryant more of an upgrade than Crayton ? I mean he was flanked by Larry and Boldin so he should be catching footballs

IMO,

Bryant's speed > Crayton's.

Craytons' hands > Bryant's.

Crayton's technical (route running, etc.) skills > Bryant's.

Both make fine # 3's, not sure about their ability to be quality #2's. Might as well stick with what we have rather than worry about what we don't. But they're very close.
 

iceberg

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Kangaroo;2168215 said:
Is Bryant more of an upgrade than Crayton ? I mean he was flanked by Larry and Boldin so he should be catching footballs

well i think i said it could be interesting but in the end more likely just roster churning to churn. so no, not likely. but someone elses crayton is always gold till they get here and people see for themselves, no difference.

people just hate on crayton cause he dropped 1 critical ball. it's so easy to forget a lot of great after 1 bad. i still believe in the guy and want to see what he can do this year. if TO went down no, we don't have a viable #1, but that's life in the NFL.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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cowboys2233;2168225 said:
IMO,

Bryant's speed > Crayton's.

Craytons' hands > Bryant's.

Crayton's technical (route running, etc.) skills > Bryant's.

Both make fine # 3's, not sure about their ability to be quality #2's. Might as well stick with what we have rather than worry about what we don't. But they're very close.

I look at it from the perspective of how all of them could compliment each other if they were all on the field at the same time. I don't really care if Crayton was the 2 and Bryant the 3. I think that together, they would all be a very effective combination of receivers. To be honest, I do believe that Johnson at the 2 and Crayton at the 3 would be better because Crayton is going to match up well against anybodies 3rd CB and at 6'3" 215 lbs and 4.4 speed, I think Bryant adds that deep outside speed eliment that I believe our offense really needs but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if one is a 2 and the other is a 3. The point is that together, with TO on the field, they could all be a very effective combination IMO. TO is the Derby Horse, Crayton is the work horse and Johnson is the Pace Horse, so to speak. Together, I think they would all be very effective.

Doesn't really matter, it didn't happen so it's all just a bunch of noise at this point.
 
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