Dak from a clean pocket last night via PFF

[Gator88]

The tweet in the OP says Dak had 21 attempts with a clean pocket. That's out of 40 drop backs.

Meaning he was pressured on almost half of his drop backs.

With how long he held the ball, that's not a surprise. I would have thought it'd be worse than that honestly.

 

[LocimusPrime]

So Sean Lee sucked according to you? The line sucked according to you? The entire defense sucked according to you? Zeke sucked according to you? No last night was not a team effort, Dak sucked, Bryant sucked, that's it.

 

[LocimusPrime]

No question. Dak was off last night to put it gently. I think Romo is about as good as anyone in the league at diagnosing the blitz and getting his guys in position to make plays. For that reason I think the pro Romo crowd has an excellent point. I also think Dak didn't get much help last night either. Give Dak a shot to redeem himself, but if the TB game isn't significantly better Jason Garrett has a tough decision to make.

People tend to forgive bad QB play if we end up w a "W", which isn't right. You can win with poor QB play, and lose with great QB play.

 

[mattjames2010]

Both pics on Dez.

Go ahead and explain this, please.

Tell me how it was on Dez that forced Dak's hand to throw into double coverage. Maybe it's on both of them, I don't know, don't know the route tree. What I do know is, there was a safety lurking deep that Dak dropped it to right in the bucket.

I would love this ridiculous breakdown how it was on Dez alone, because as of now, I think some of you are talking out of your butt on this.

As for the first INT, you can put it on Dez but slips happen and the field was slick. I don't fault either Dez or Dak on it, just unfortunate to have a slip at that very moment.

With all these mental gymnastics, I'm sure you guys will find a way to get Dak back into the MVP discussion...

 

[LocimusPrime]

 

[kevm3]

So we're going to ignore Mark Sanchez and the eagles beating Dallas down 33 to 10 on Thanksgiving in 2014. That game must not count. Dak stunk it up lat game, but to act like Romo had a perfect season in 2014 is pure fantasy. QBs have bad games.

 

[mattjames2010]

So we're going to ignore Mark Sanchez and the eagles beating Dallas down 33 to 10 on Thanksgiving in 2014. That game must not count. Dak stunk it up lat game, but to act like Romo had a perfect season in 2014 is pure fantasy. QBs have bad games.

We all know the issue Romo was having at that time. Maybe give a little bit of context. Again, more gymnastics here.

So, what was Dak's problem last night? Why does he continue to throw a ball with little to no zip on it and giving CBs a chance to make plays on it?

 

[kevm3]

We all know the issue Romo was having at that time. Maybe give a little bit of context. Again, more gymnastics here.

So, what was Dak's problem last night? Why does he continue to throw a ball with little to no zip on it and giving CBs a chance to make plays on it?

And things have changed how? Romo played against Philly last year, got injured. Played ok against Miami. Came in against the Panthers, a tough defense, got injured again. Came in during preseason against the Seahawks, and got injured again... and yet we're supposed to believe Romo is just going to be shredding these tough defenses. Dak was hit several times against the Vikings and Baltimore, hits that would likely put Romo out of the game again.

 

[mattjames2010]

And things have changed how? Romo played against Philly last year, got injured. Played ok against Miami. Came in against the Panthers, a tough defense, got injured again. Came in during preseason against the Seahawks, and got injured again... and yet we're supposed to believe Romo is just going to be shredding these tough defenses. Dak was hit several times against the Vikings and Baltimore, hits that would likely put Romo out of the game again.

We are discussing play here. He's had months of healing time now, he's not being rushed back. This is the most time Romo has had to really rest. his back injury was not related to prior injuries, the first collarbone break was freakish, second was as well. Romo has had some back luck with injuries, but he's late into his 30s, your bones aren't fragile at this time. He's not a 60 year old man. There are SOME issues you'll have to worry about with his back, but again, the last injury he had was an unfortunate injury and how he slid and was tackled.

If Romo gets injured, you simply start Dak and we can go back to discussed how crappy Dak is. You don't start crap players because "MAYBE and injury may occur!"

Dak simply hasn't been playing well the past few weeks. Has had some iffy halves and some good halves, nothing spectacular.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

They must have a pretty liberal definition of a clean pocket.....even the Play action fakes got big pressure

I had him with at least 4 seconds until he threw or pressure came on about half the dropbacks and I think another 12 with 3 seconds before he threw or pressure got there. That is 3/4 of the dropbacks he had at least 3 seconds.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

Not sure how anyone justifies the deep throw towards Dez and somehow blame that on Dez. It was an awful decision by Dak...one of the worst ones he has made all year. Dez did slip (not sure you can blame that on him on an icy field) and I guess you can blame that pick on him....it wasn't Dak's fault obviously.

 

[kramskoi]

So we're going to ignore Mark Sanchez and the eagles beating Dallas down 33 to 10 on Thanksgiving in 2014. That game must not count. Dak stunk it up lat game, but to act like Romo had a perfect season in 2014 is pure fantasy. QBs have bad games.

Well to be fair...Romo and the Cowboys had maybe less than 72 hours prep time for Philadelphia in 2014. The toughly contested, Sunday night road win against New York saw them getting back to Dallas in the early a.m. on Monday, giving them not much time to rest and prepare for the Eagles the following Thursday. They were tired and it showed...but they avenged that loss (on the road) just two weeks later.

 

[WarDaddy]

People forget that the temperature was below freezing during the game. First really cold game of the season and first of Dak's career. Maybe the receivers were uncomfortable playing in those conditions.

Sure everyone has to "suck it up" or remember the "other team is cold too" or whatever fake tough guy cliche tends to fit the narrative but I think the cold affected the receivers' ability to get separation on Sunday.

 

[robbieruff]

Bryant slipped on the first. Prescott's lob into coverage on 3rd and 15 was all rookie mistake. You throw the ball up to Dez in a one on one situation, not one where there is a safety waiting to pick the ball. Prescott should not be in the habit of playing "hope ball", where he makes his WR play cornerback. Prescott simply didn't trust what he was seeing...was rattled, inaccurate, confused and reticent about trying to fit balls in tight windows...the things that a confident quarterback does. He was hot garbage Sunday night. He had 6 rushes for 37 yards versus the Vikings, where he put the team on his back. He had 1 rush for 1 yard against New York. You can cry about the fumble, but the Giants served up their share of drops, fumbles and INTs. The Dallas offense simply couldn't make them pay for their turnovers.

Four games leading up to Sunday:

Bryant...21 - 352 yds - 4 TDs (16.7 ypc)
Beckham...31 - 339 yds - 3 TDs (10.9 ypc)

So you're saying that Dez ran a good pattern on the deep post and showed good effort after the pick by Hall?!!

I am not saying the throw was the best decision, but Dez did him zero favors on that play. And yes, i already acknowledged the slip by not attributing any fault on the play. It was just bad luck all the way around. My previous post didn't blame Dez for the slip. But I sure as shoot blame him for the poor route and effort and of course the fumble.

 

[robbieruff]

Bryant slipped on the first. Prescott's lob into coverage on 3rd and 15 was all rookie mistake. You throw the ball up to Dez in a one on one situation, not one where there is a safety waiting to pick the ball. Prescott should not be in the habit of playing "hope ball", where he makes his WR play cornerback. Prescott simply didn't trust what he was seeing...was rattled, inaccurate, confused and reticent about trying to fit balls in tight windows...the things that a confident quarterback does. He was hot garbage Sunday night. He had 6 rushes for 37 yards versus the Vikings, where he put the team on his back. He had 1 rush for 1 yard against New York. You can cry about the fumble, but the Giants served up their share of drops, fumbles and INTs. The Dallas offense simply couldn't make them pay for their turnovers.

Four games leading up to Sunday:

Bryant...21 - 352 yds - 4 TDs (16.7 ypc)
Beckham...31 - 339 yds - 3 TDs (10.9 ypc)

P.S. - Now that I have had my coffee (I'm west coast), let me elaborate on a few things they may be lost in this exchange.

1 - I have posted many times going back many games that Dak has hd struggles in decision making, which is typical for where he is in his development trajectory...specifically speed of decision making which is predicated on sound pre-snap reads. Again, these are issues that typically a rookie QB will have issues with.

2 - my point about Sunday was to merely state this...we saw Dez slip on one of his routes AND we saw footing issues on a number of other plays. Therefore, it is a reasonable theory to suggest that perhaps SOME of Dak's issues could have been attributed to OTHER receivers having issues with footing (the cameras didn't show this, which is the point I was making earlier about it ALSO being an issue with the receivers). As I've said in many threads previous, some of the Dak stuff (i.e., in the Vikings game as well as in much of the earlier Eagles game) was completely on him. Sunday could have been a repeat of those very same things...what we don't know and may never know is whether receiver route running and/or slippage was at all a significant contributing factor...as we both agree, it certainly was on one play that resulted in a pick to Jenkins.

3 - the deep post to Dez...have to vigorously disagree with you on that one. First the premise of throwing into double coverage. There are PLENTY of instances to point to where QB's throw balls like that to elite receivers to allow them to go up and make a play...particularly when those receivers having elite ability to go up and get a 50-50 balls against smaller defenders. Stafford and Megatron made a living doing that with the Lions...Brandon Marshall...Thomas in Denver...Julio Jones...I could go on forever. AND, Tony has certainly "thrown one up" to Dez on many past occasions regardless of coverage to allow Dez to go get it (Youtube has countless examples of that). I do not fault Dak at all for going for a big play there, hoping his best receiver could do something highlight reel worthy...which Dez has done frequently in the past. What is totally clear on that play (and should be to anyone watching) was the fact that Dez COMPELTELY quit on his route to the deep post! I mean the dude just basically stopped running and slowed to a jog, making the throw by Dak appear poor but in reality it was thrown to the very spot where a full speed Dez should have been able to AT WORST bat the ball down or AT BEST come up with an incredible leaping catch (which has been a staple of the many great plays we've seen from him). To compound that with the dogging it effort after the pick to make an immediate tackle, thus rendering it one of those "just as good as a punt" type of plays was inexcusable. Dez is a veteran leader on this team (or at least should be) and should NEVER take plays off or give less than 100% effort on every play...we pay him way to much for that.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

Turf caused him to fumble? Turf caused him to quit on a route? He also fell down on a timing route. He was the root cause of 2 of the turnovers and was the reason they turned that pick into a 30yd return.

That excuse doesn't fly when the qb is under 50% the entire game and scored 7 points on a broken play.

 

[Blackspider214]

That excuse doesn't fly when the qb is under 50% the entire game and scored 7 points on a broken play.

A broken play or a well designed play? Semantics.

Dez was god awful as well. A supposed superstar WR should step up and make plays. Not fall on the turf, fumble the ball on a potential game winning drive and give up on a route to allow a long INT return. Dak is a rookie. He will have bad games. But if he's having a bad game and his "star" WR is not only not helping but hurting him, then he has zero chance.

Dez doesn't fumble that ball and we are driving to win the game and then this narrative is totally different.

 

[MarionBarberThe4th]

Dez had always been the rocket launcher from the action video game. You can't use him all the time. Sometimes it'll blow up in your face. But at the end when you face the boss he'll be there to finish the job

 

[kramskoi]

P.S. - Now that I have had my coffee (I'm west coast), let me elaborate on a few things they may be lost in this exchange.

1 - I have posted many times going back many games that Dak has hd struggles in decision making, which is typical for where he is in his development trajectory...specifically speed of decision making which is predicated on sound pre-snap reads. Again, these are issues that typically a rookie QB will have issues with.

2 - my point about Sunday was to merely state this...we saw Dez slip on one of his routes AND we saw footing issues on a number of other plays. Therefore, it is a reasonable theory to suggest that perhaps SOME of Dak's issues could have been attributed to OTHER receivers having issues with footing (the cameras didn't show this, which is the point I was making earlier about it ALSO being an issue with the receivers). As I've said in many threads previous, some of the Dak stuff (i.e., in the Vikings game as well as in much of the earlier Eagles game) was completely on him. Sunday could have been a repeat of those very same things...what we don't know and may never know is whether receiver route running and/or slippage was at all a significant contributing factor...as we both agree, it certainly was on one play that resulted in a pick to Jenkins.

3 - the deep post to Dez...have to vigorously disagree with you on that one. First the premise of throwing into double coverage. There are PLENTY of instances to point to where QB's throw balls like that to elite receivers to allow them to go up and make a play...particularly when those receivers having elite ability to go up and get a 50-50 balls against smaller defenders. Stafford and Megatron made a living doing that with the Lions...Brandon Marshall...Thomas in Denver...Julio Jones...I could go on forever. AND, Tony has certainly "thrown one up" to Dez on many past occasions regardless of coverage to allow Dez to go get it (Youtube has countless examples of that). I do not fault Dak at all for going for a big play there, hoping his best receiver could do something highlight reel worthy...which Dez has done frequently in the past. What is totally clear on that play (and should be to anyone watching) was the fact that Dez COMPELTELY quit on his route to the deep post! I mean the dude just basically stopped running and slowed to a jog, making the throw by Dak appear poor but in reality it was thrown to the very spot where a full speed Dez should have been able to AT WORST bat the ball down or AT BEST come up with an incredible leaping catch (which has been a staple of the many great plays we've seen from him). To compound that with the dogging it effort after the pick to make an immediate tackle, thus rendering it one of those "just as good as a punt" type of plays was inexcusable. Dez is a veteran leader on this team (or at least should be) and should NEVER take plays off or give less than 100% effort on every play...we pay him way to much for that.

I looked at the replays and I don't see Bryant "totally" quitting on the route (makes a hard cut at the 35 yd line), or "jogging" to catch Hall. From the six yard line to almost the thirty, Bryant is full on after Hall. He didn't immediately make the tackle but he wasn't "jogging" after Hall. Hall caught the ball like an outfielder catching a pop fly. Bryant simply couldn't find the ball and was run into by Jenkins right as Hall collected the INT. See what you want to see bud...but the fact remains Prescott threw into double coverage under duress. I simply don't see a man COMPLETELY quitting on a route NOR a man INEXCUSABLY JOGGING after Hall once he made the INT. Nope, don't see it. Prescott threw that ball straight down the right hash mark, where Hall, the safety was already well placed. He didn't even have to close on it to catch it...he was already in position on the right hash mark. He simply needed to reach up his hands and collect it. You can't make that throw.

Per Bob Sturm:

The second half was an offensive disaster. There is simply no other way to describe eight different possessions that resulted in just three first downs, one play in Giants territory, and zero points. It was absolutely the worst thing we have seen all year from this offense that has been among the best in the league all season. They actually crossed midfield for one play, then committed a holding penalty, and to try to get it all back, Dak Prescott made one of his rare poor decisions as he threw a prayer into coverage that was picked off on a deep ball on third and 15. If you are a young QB, you have to know that throwing a deep ball on third and 15 into a waiting safety is about the most rookie thing you can do.

And while poor decisions are rare, he had a few more. Including a screen pass that was ill-timed and he still tried to get the ball to Lance Dunbar which was almost picked off and returned for a touchdown. Having gotten away with that, he then tried a rollout where the Giants had all options shut down and he tried a very dangerous pass across the body to Jason Witten into traffic. These all suggest he was rattled and out of his normal form.

But, those were the decisions. Then there were the poor throws. Some were high and misses. Others were bounced and missed. There was a moment on his first throw after halftime where he threw a duck that landed beyond Witten and in front of Dez Bryant that seemed to betray his complete lack of confidence and command of his performance.

Third down performance has been particularly poor. The Giants had all sorts of ways to pressure Dak and also close off his familiar escape routes. He was reluctant to use his feet and the lanes were taken away with the arm. The Giants have a very nice defense and the corners were winning many battles.

 

[robbieruff]

I looked at the replays and I don't see Bryant "totally" quitting on the route (makes a hard cut at the 35 yd line), or "jogging" to catch Hall. From the six yard line to almost the thirty, Bryant is full on after Hall. He didn't immediately make the tackle but he wasn't "jogging" after Hall. Hall caught the ball like an outfielder catching a pop fly. Bryant simply couldn't find the ball and was run into by Jenkins right as Hall collected the INT. See what you want to see bud...but the fact remains Prescott threw into double coverage under duress. I simply don't see a man COMPLETELY quitting on a route NOR a man INEXCUSABLY JOGGING after Hall once he made the INT. Nope, don't see it. Prescott threw that ball straight down the right hash mark, where Hall, the safety was already well placed. He didn't even have to close on it to catch it...he was already in position on the right hash mark. He simply needed to reach up his hands and collect it. You can't make that throw.

Per Bob Sturm:

The second half was an offensive disaster. There is simply no other way to describe eight different possessions that resulted in just three first downs, one play in Giants territory, and zero points. It was absolutely the worst thing we have seen all year from this offense that has been among the best in the league all season. They actually crossed midfield for one play, then committed a holding penalty, and to try to get it all back, Dak Prescott made one of his rare poor decisions as he threw a prayer into coverage that was picked off on a deep ball on third and 15. If you are a young QB, you have to know that throwing a deep ball on third and 15 into a waiting safety is about the most rookie thing you can do.

And while poor decisions are rare, he had a few more. Including a screen pass that was ill-timed and he still tried to get the ball to Lance Dunbar which was almost picked off and returned for a touchdown. Having gotten away with that, he then tried a rollout where the Giants had all options shut down and he tried a very dangerous pass across the body to Jason Witten into traffic. These all suggest he was rattled and out of his normal form.

But, those were the decisions. Then there were the poor throws. Some were high and misses. Others were bounced and missed. There was a moment on his first throw after halftime where he threw a duck that landed beyond Witten and in front of Dez Bryant that seemed to betray his complete lack of confidence and command of his performance.

Third down performance has been particularly poor. The Giants had all sorts of ways to pressure Dak and also close off his familiar escape routes. He was reluctant to use his feet and the lanes were taken away with the arm. The Giants have a very nice defense and the corners were winning many battles.

As soon as it is available, I will post video of the play (including the replay which shows what I am referencing more clearly) and break down why I am so critical of Dez on that route...stay tuned.