Dallas FA signings need fixing

[Toruk_Makto]

and both these great seasons you slobber about ended HOW?

Define slobber?

I'm just correcting the record. You can't say this strategy hasn't worked for 25 years when it hasn't even been the strategy for 5.

So stop lying?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Again, the Giants model of dropping $200MM in one offseason in FA isn't exactly what people are talking about here.

Teams that win actually do both well - they draft well and they strategically use FA to improve themselves. They draft well to build a core and then use FA to fill immediate holes.

The Packers are always used as this model of just draft, never sign FAs.

But that's not entirely true. In 2014, they signed Julius Peppers, for example. They wanted another edge player and felt they were ready to win then and FA was the way to go. In the three seasons he was there, they made two NFC Title games. The Packers built their core through the draft and then strategically found a couple of FAs that could fill a hole and put them over the top.

That's not what the Cowboys are doing here. They are basically saying we are going all in on the draft and will basically eschew FA as a way to also improve, instead playing the lottery and hoping our cheap, day 7 FAs buck the trend and end up being good instead of the dogs they likely are.

All I am saying is they have to change their thinking a bit at this point and look to FA this offseason as a way to get better on defense sooner while still drafting the young core going forward.

Julius Pepper signed a 3 year deal with 7.5mm guaranteed.

That's the exact type of signing the Cowboys are looking to make these days. People also forget that after a 12 win season the team went out and guaranteed Hardy 13mm for a single year.

This team will spend money on its own, sign bridge players and spend larger on a FA when it makes sense.

Oh they haven't immediately won a super bowl? So toss out the strategy that's tried and true?

It's just dumb talk from fans who want immediate gratification and will then turn on the owner and management when moves they reveled in at the time don't pan out. They'll them cherry pick thew few offseason FA signings with happy endings and bemoan the Cowboys for not getting involved. Rinse repeat.

 

[Sydla]

Julius Pepper signed a 3 year deal with 7.5mm guaranteed.

That's the exact type of signing the Cowboys are looking to make these days. People also forget that after a 12 win season the team went out and guaranteed Hardy 13mm for a single year.

This team will spend money on its own, sign bridge players and spend larger on a FA when it makes sense.

Oh they haven't immediately won a super bowl? So toss out the strategy that's tried and true?

It's just dumb talk from fans who want immediate gratification and will then turn on the owner and management when moves they reveled in at the time don't pan out. They'll them cherry pick thew few offseason FA signings with happy endings and bemoan the Cowboys for not getting involved. Rinse repeat.

Great. Sign bridge players. Who can actually play. That's the point. Sign guys who fill holes, can be productive and aren't cap anchors down the road.

Instead, we signed guys who sucked (Carroll), had an injury history but Marinelli loved him (Paea) and a 3 team cast off desperate for another job (Moore).

And Peppers signed a 3 year deal for $26MM and earned all $26MM. The guaranteed number was $7.5MM but he ended up earning that full contract. It also doesn't change the fact that a team that is often offered up as this pure build through the draft actually went out and signed a mid-tier FA to address something they thought was a key need. And that this notion that the SB winning teams don't use FA is nothing but a large crock.

 

[Alexander]

[

Heath is also an example of how to do things. He is a guy who's never made any money and has been a good depth guy and special teamer here. His kicking off and XPs was pretty special use of a player like that.

Thing is though, he is a "glue guy" that has been thrust into a starting role and quite simply Woods is probably the better player now.

The faith they showed in handing him the job based off the Green Bay game has them being stubborn now when you have a player like Woods ready to go.

His heroics in SF mean nothing to me. He could have done that as just another humble backup safety/STer, like he was before.

Now he is carrying way too many snaps at safety and it is holding up where we could get Woods involved even more. He is among the league leader in snaps, he is on the field way more than he needs to be thanks to him also playing ST. I would get it if he were making big plays on defense too, but he really is not.

Dallas went from a crap 4 win team to a 13 win team relying on young guys and now fans want to go hire mercenaries... lol.
That makes no sense.

Just checking that the four win team was due to losing Romo. Now it suddenly wasn't? Goes against the grain what I have been told here.

Back to FA, I think you are oversimplifying it. By that regard, Green Bay made a big mistake by hiring mercenaries like Jared Cook last year and Bennett this year.

A team does not have to break the bank nor employ a bunch of hired guns to use free agency effectively and prudently. That also does not mean it is completely worthless and whiffing on most everyone you sign is excusable.

This team is 3-3 and improving. If you can make 9-7 and the playoffs that's a good goal.

Going to 9-7 from 13-3 is a good goal?

 

[jterrell]

Thing is though, he is a "glue guy" that has been thrust into a starting role and quite simply Woods is probably the better player now.

The faith they showed in handing him the job based off the Green Bay game has them being stubborn now when you have a player like Woods ready to go.

His heroics in SF mean nothing to me. He could have done that as just another humble backup safety/STer, like he was before.

Now he is carrying way too many snaps at safety and it is holding up where we could get Woods involved even more. He is among the league leader in snaps, he is on the field way more than he needs to be thanks to him also playing ST. I would get it if he were making big plays on defense too, but he really is not.



Just checking that the four win team was due to losing Romo. Now it suddenly wasn't? Goes against the grain what I have been told here.

Back to FA, I think you are oversimplifying it. By that regard, Green Bay made a big mistake by hiring mercenaries like Jared Cook last year and Bennett this year.

A team does not have to break the bank nor employ a bunch of hired guns to use free agency effectively and prudently. That also does not mean it is completely worthless and whiffing on most everyone you sign is excusable.



Going to 9-7 from 13-3 is a good goal?

Yes, Woods is probably the better player now. But Woods is playing a lot and will likely know the defense quite well in short order.
To me this is a non-issue. Woods is doing well and Heath will be back to part-time duty soon imho.
Heath deserved a shot and you had to allow Woods to earn it but he has.
I have Woods for 4 years minimum and am quite happy with that.

4 win team was absolutely representative of losing Romo and the talent we had once Romo was out.
In that two year span we've added half a roster of young guys including both starting CBs, the RB, QB et al.
It's a better, younger team.

A worthy goal is being better tomorrow than you are today. Continual improvement across the board means not worrying about whether a record was fool's gold or not. See 90's Cowboys. Continued improvement, all young guys. Plucked studs in free agency but there was no salary cap then.

I've already addressed GB/NE/PITT and others. If you have a franchise QB that's at his peak or beyond it than you handle personnel differently.
If you tanked to 4 wins and are starting a 2nd year guy at QB you build.

Should the LA Rams trade for 35 year old players? Of course not.

I am not sure a single team in football wouldn't trade their full roster today for Dallas'. That's how young and deep Dallas has gotten.
They just need to grow up and shore up; especially in that secondary.

 

[Sydla]

Yes, Woods is probably the better player now. But Woods is playing a lot and will likely know the defense quite well in short order.
To me this is a non-issue. Woods is doing well and Heath will be back to part-time duty soon imho.
Heath deserved a shot and you had to allow Woods to earn it but he has.
I have Woods for 4 years minimum and am quite happy with that.

4 win team was absolutely representative of losing Romo and the talent we had once Romo was out.
In that two year span we've added half a roster of young guys including both starting CBs, the RB, QB et al.
It's a better, younger team.

A worthy goal is being better tomorrow than you are today. Continual improvement across the board means not worrying about whether a record was fool's gold or not. See 90's Cowboys. Continued improvement, all young guys. Plucked studs in free agency but there was no salary cap then.

I've already addressed GB/NE/PITT and others. If you have a franchise QB that's at his peak or beyond it than you handle personnel differently.
If you tanked to 4 wins and are starting a 2nd year guy at QB you build.

Should the LA Rams trade for 35 year old players? Of course not.

I am not sure a single team in football wouldn't trade their full roster today for Dallas'. That's how young and deep Dallas has gotten.
They just need to grow up and shore up; especially in that secondary.

Sure, if you tanked to four wins, started a new rookie QB the next year and then still only won like 5-6 games. Sure. That's a rebuild.

But when you come off a 13-3 season, trying to argue that a crap FA plan is actually part of a shrewd rebuild is quite silly. And yet again, this team could have still handled FA better while not giving up future cap space that would kill them down the road and still being able to use premium picks in the draft to continue to get younger and better.

You make it sound like what people are suggesting here is blow draft picks in trades for 35 year old players making $15MM a year and then also turn around and blow every remaining dollar of cap space on overpriced, top of the list FAs.

The issue here and what makes your position somewhat comical is that you are consistently drawing this line in the sand where if you actually spend a bit more in FA on some mid-tier players instead of the crap they typically sign, you are somehow betraying the draft model and that you somehow completely undermine drafting and developing young players.

And your last paragraph is hilarious.

Guess what? If we had signed a couple of better FAs this offseason that were competent players it's not like our young roster would have disappeared. We'd still have the same impressive young roster you think we have. The only difference is we'd likely also be a better team right now than we are. That's the beauty of using FA wisely and not the way we use it. You can get better in the near term while ALSO not sacrificing the future.

But again, you act like what people are proposing is basically eschew young players and just blow billions in FA.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Great. Sign bridge players. Who can actually play. That's the point. Sign guys who fill holes, can be productive and aren't cap anchors down the road.

Instead, we signed guys who sucked (Carroll), had an injury history but Marinelli loved him (Paea) and a 3 team cast off desperate for another job (Moore).

And Peppers signed a 3 year deal for $26MM and earned all $26MM. The guaranteed number was $7.5MM but he ended up earning that full contract. It also doesn't change the fact that a team that is often offered up as this pure build through the draft actually went out and signed a mid-tier FA to address something they thought was a key need. And that this notion that the SB winning teams don't use FA is nothing but a large crock.

I mean so what? When we are talking about spending big in free agency we're talking about guaranteed money on big deals. The players who are still elite or have few res flags don't make it to free agency often and when they do they don't sign contracts with so little guaranteed money.

Again we paid Hardy more in one year than all that was guaranteed for Peppers.

Additionally what do you think bridge players are for? You sign and let them go when your players you're bridging them to show they can play. Carroll and Lewis is a perfect example. Lewis was thrust into more action sooner than we wanted him to. When he showed he could handle it we jettisoned him. Pea retired from. Football but was playing well. Moore was a miss but he's the low risk high upside players you should always be signing. Most of them turn out to be Moore.... The others turn out to be Irving.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Sure, if you tanked to four wins, started a new rookie QB the next year and then still only won like 5-6 games. Sure. That's a rebuild.

But when you come off a 13-3 season, trying to argue that a crap FA plan is actually part of a shrewd rebuild is quite silly. And yet again, this team could have still handled FA better while not giving up future cap space that would kill them down the road and still being able to use premium picks in the draft to continue to get younger and better.

You make it sound like what people are suggesting here is blow draft picks in trades for 35 year old players making $15MM a year and then also turn around and blow every remaining dollar of cap space on overpriced, top of the list FAs.

The issue here and what makes your position somewhat comical is that you are consistently drawing this line in the sand where if you actually spend a bit more in FA on some mid-tier players instead of the crap they typically sign, you are somehow betraying the draft model and that you somehow completely undermine drafting and developing young players.

And your last paragraph is hilarious.

Guess what? If we had signed a couple of better FAs this offseason that were competent players it's not like our young roster would have disappeared. We'd still have the same impressive young roster you think we have. The only difference is we'd likely also be a better team right now than we are. That's the beauty of using FA wisely and not the way we use it. You can get better in the near term while ALSO not sacrificing the future.

But again, you act like what people are proposing is basically eschew young players and just blow billions in FA.

There were not many players this offseason the Cowboys would have paid what they did. There are a few in hindsight you wish they got in boars with.

Aka hindsight.

And also this is a competitive process. The Cowboys don't get right of first refusal on every player in free agency.

 

[jterrell]

Sure, if you tanked to four wins, started a new rookie QB the next year and then still only won like 5-6 games. Sure. That's a rebuild.

But when you come off a 13-3 season, trying to argue that a crap FA plan is actually part of a shrewd rebuild is quite silly. And yet again, this team could have still handled FA better while not giving up future cap space that would kill them down the road and still being able to use premium picks in the draft to continue to get younger and better.

You make it sound like what people are suggesting here is blow draft picks in trades for 35 year old players making $15MM a year and then also turn around and blow every remaining dollar of cap space on overpriced, top of the list FAs.

The issue here and what makes your position somewhat comical is that you are consistently drawing this line in the sand where if you actually spend a bit more in FA on some mid-tier players instead of the crap they typically sign, you are somehow betraying the draft model and that you somehow completely undermine drafting and developing young players.

And your last paragraph is hilarious.

Guess what? If we had signed a couple of better FAs this offseason that were competent players it's not like our young roster would have disappeared. We'd still have the same impressive young roster you think we have. The only difference is we'd likely also be a better team right now than we are. That's the beauty of using FA wisely and not the way we use it. You can get better in the near term while ALSO not sacrificing the future.

But again, you act like what people are proposing is basically eschew young players and just blow billions in FA.

You are simply not thinking intelligently here and I can't force you to.
I've tried to demonstrate why your thinking is flawed but you choose not to get it.

Again, I've addressed both your suggestions.
Micah Hyde is a solid starter and would be a better SS option than Heath or Woods this second. But he got paid what it would have taken to keep Barry Church.
Dallas instead looks to have Xavier Woods ready to go for 4-5 years at the cost of Hyde for 1 season!!
And they get an additional 5th round pick. Woods is 5 years younger. So he will be younger than Hyde is now throughout his deal here and his RFA season.
Is 4-6 games of Hyde over Heath so valuable I wanna pay 30m and a 5th? Nope. And had I signed Hyde, Woods who was clearly a steal would languish on the bench for a couple seasons minimum.

Poe is a very good interior guy but he was 8mil for 1 season.
Does he really move the needle on this team much? Probably not and you pay him 8m plus lose a 4th round pick. No thanks.
David Irving and Maliek Collins makes me pretty darn happy inside. I can use Tyrone Crawford in there some as well.

Would you sign David Irving or Poe? Because they may well be the choices you are looking at in short order. Poe is free again.

DAL could have selected a better FA player than Carroll at CB but would that player have been able to keep Lewis and Brown off the field? Probably not.
And that player would have been costly.

Paea held down the fort til David Irving came back and then bam, retired. Best of both worlds really.

The two moves you described would have eaten more than the 10m in cap space DAL has. Instead that 10m can end up going to a combination of Tank Lawrence, David Irving and Martin next year when they roll it over.

When you have a young roster you use it and get better, when you have a vet roster, you use that and younger players sit on the bench.
Please just stop posting to me as you stated you were going to about 10 replies ago.

 

[KingintheNorth]

That is some solid gold apologizing.

Solid..... gold.

 

[LocimusPrime]

I'd take a Calais Campbell 1st year salary cap hit of 10.5 million over Carroll + Moore + Blanton + Bell

 

[Sydla]

I mean so what? When we are talking about spending big in free agency we're talking about guaranteed money on big deals. The players who are still elite or have few res flags don't make it to free agency often and when they do they don't sign contracts with so little guaranteed money.

Again we paid Hardy more in one year than all that was guaranteed for Peppers.

Additionally what do you think bridge players are for? You sign and let them go when your players you're bridging them to show they can play. Carroll and Lewis is a perfect example. Lewis was thrust into more action sooner than we wanted him to. When he showed he could handle it we jettisoned him. Pea retired from. Football but was playing well. Moore was a miss but he's the low risk high upside players you should always be signing. Most of them turn out to be Moore.... The others turn out to be Irving.

And yet again, no one has really said anything about spending "big" in FA.

 

[LocimusPrime]

I think Mark Cuban has been teaching the cowboys the art of keeping the powder dry....

 

[Toruk_Makto]

And yet again, no one has really said anything about spending "big" in FA.

If you'd like to provide a list of free agent signings you're rueing I'm happy to listen.

 

[Sydla]

If you'd like to provide a list of free agent signings you're rueing I'm happy to listen.

I've listed some already. And many were guys I advocated back when FA started, not in hindsight.

If you want to know, read the thread.

 

[Stash]

Additionally what do you think bridge players are for? You sign and let them go when your players you're bridging them to show they can play. Carroll and Lewis is a perfect example. Lewis was thrust into more action sooner than we wanted him to. When he showed he could handle it we jettisoned him.

This is nothing other than a bold-faced lie. You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this site or following this team knows it.

A "bridge player" is one that gets you through a season until a rookie is ready, not one freakin' game!

Deion Sanders never made $4 million for one freakin' game!

Jourdan Lewis playing well has zero to do with the team outright releasing Nolan Carroll. The fact is that no matter how well Lewis was playing, or whether he outplayed Carroll (he did), you dont release a player who lost his starting job outright. You keep him for depth if they're worth anything at all. Especially after you've guaranteed that player $4 million. This wasn't part of any "plan" whatsoever.

Jourdan Lewis could be Deion Sanders and you'd still keep players around for depth!

And now, as a result of Carroll's release, the team now owes Cincinnati a 6th round pick for Bene Benwikere, who they've kept off the field at all costs, even with the injuries they've had. Insult to injury.

But spare us this line of bull**** about the Nolan Carroll situation being a "prefect example" of anything other than abject failure.

 

[Sydla]

You are simply not thinking intelligently here and I can't force you to.
I've tried to demonstrate why your thinking is flawed but you choose not to get it.

Again, I've addressed both your suggestions.
Micah Hyde is a solid starter and would be a better SS option than Heath or Woods this second. But he got paid what it would have taken to keep Barry Church.
Dallas instead looks to have Xavier Woods ready to go for 4-5 years at the cost of Hyde for 1 season!!
And they get an additional 5th round pick. Woods is 5 years younger. So he will be younger than Hyde is now throughout his deal here and his RFA season.
Is 4-6 games of Hyde over Heath so valuable I wanna pay 30m and a 5th? Nope. And had I signed Hyde, Woods who was clearly a steal would languish on the bench for a couple seasons minimum.

Poe is a very good interior guy but he was 8mil for 1 season.
Does he really move the needle on this team much? Probably not and you pay him 8m plus lose a 4th round pick. No thanks.
David Irving and Maliek Collins makes me pretty darn happy inside. I can use Tyrone Crawford in there some as well.

Would you sign David Irving or Poe? Because they may well be the choices you are looking at in short order. Poe is free again.

DAL could have selected a better FA player than Carroll at CB but would that player have been able to keep Lewis and Brown off the field? Probably not.
And that player would have been costly.

Paea held down the fort til David Irving came back and then bam, retired. Best of both worlds really.

The two moves you described would have eaten more than the 10m in cap space DAL has. Instead that 10m can end up going to a combination of Tank Lawrence, David Irving and Martin next year when they roll it over.

When you have a young roster you use it and get better, when you have a vet roster, you use that and younger players sit on the bench.
Please just stop posting to me as you stated you were going to about 10 replies ago.

Irving is a 3 Tech/DE. He's not a 1 Tech. He plays DT mostly in passing situations. If Paea was healthy he'd be the starter at the 1 tech, not Irving. I know you guys want to make the DT position interchangeable because it helps your argument but in this system Marinelli has a specific type for the 1 Tech. Irving and Crawford will have to play there out of sheer need.

And I didn't have to make a decision between Poe or Logan and Irving last year. And the beauty of those two guys was one year deals that didn't hamper you beyond this year. Frankly, this offseason I'd see what Poe or Logan or what other 1 Tech types are out there might get and also finally draft a real 1 Tech and stop the useless cheap FA plan they use there.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

This is nothing other than a bold-faced lie. You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this site or following this team knows it.

A "bridge player" is one that gets you through a season until a rookie is ready, not one freakin' game!

Deion Sanders never made $4 million for one freakin' game!

Jourdan Lewis playing well has zero to do with the team outright releasing Nolan Carroll. The fact is that no matter how well Lewis was playing, or whether he outplayed Carroll (he did), you dont release a player who lost his starting job outright. You keep him for depth if they're worth anything at all. Especially after you've guaranteed that player $4 million. This wasn't part of any "plan" whatsoever.

Jourdan Lewis could be Deion Sanders and you'd still keep players around for depth!

And now, as a result of Carroll's release, the team now owes Cincinnati a 6th round pick for Bene Benwikere, who they've kept off the field at all costs, even with the injuries they've had. Insult to injury.

But spare us this line of bull**** about the Nolan Carroll situation being a "prefect example" of anything other than abject failure.

Lewis was ready sooner than we thought. Carroll got injured. The organization moved on to the younger better player.

That's how it played out. Carroll was brought in to keep the seat warm. Injury forced everyone's hand in starting Lewis. Lewis being ready allowed Cowboys to part early with Nolan.

This is factual.

And are you rueing a 6th round pick that we don't lose for multiple drafts because we picked up a useful depth piece? Are you ignoring Carroll getting injured? Do you just not understand how all 3 things (lewis' play, Carroll's injury and the cheapness of Bene all worked together in a perfect storm)?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Irving is a 3 Tech/DE. He's not a 1 Tech. He plays DT mostly in passing situations. If Paea was healthy he'd be the starter at the 1 tech, not Irving. I know you guys want to make the DT position interchangeable because it helps your argument but in this system Marinelli has a specific type for the 1 Tech. Irving and Crawford will have to play there out of sheer need.

And I didn't have to make a decision between Poe or Logan and Irving last year. And the beauty of those two guys was one year deals that didn't hamper you beyond this year. Frankly, this offseason I'd see what Poe or Logan or what other 1 Tech types are out there might get and also finally draft a real 1 Tech and stop the useless cheap FA plan they use there.

You act like because Poe or Logan are only one year deals that their salaries don't matter. 8MM is 8MM. That is money you never get back either this year or in lost rolled forward money.

I'm not sure you understand the zero sum game that is the salary cap.

 

[Sydla]

You act like because Poe or Logan are only one year deals that their salaries don't matter. 8MM is 8MM. That is money you never get back either this year or in lost rolled forward money.

I'm not sure you understand the zero sum game that is the salary cap.

I understand it just fine.

Because paying 7MM to Logan this year is not going to prevent you from doing what you need to do this coming offseason.

We blew 4MM in cap space over two seasons on Carroll and yet now we should concern ourselves with another 3MM for a better player?

Oy.