Dallas might need 2 new starting DTs next year

Sydla

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That was aimed at people in this thread trashing him and longing for other guys who did nothing week 1 as well. If it didn’t apply to you don’t worry about it

You said this while quoting me. Maybe explain yourself better.

Plus, few called him trash.

But he's also a FA so when Wood says we may need two DTs next year, he's not far from the truth because maybe Collins signs somewhere else.
 

doomsday9084

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Is the problem the 1 gap scheme? DLaw went into it pretty explicitly. The idea is that players shoot gaps. They also stunt and move around on certain plays. That requires smaller, quicker tackles. When it works and you hit the right gap or break through the line, its a highlight defensive play. OTOH, shooting one gap lets the offensive line determine which guy hits you (left or right of the gap) and for a smaller guy, its easy to push them in the direction the offense wants. Beyond that, LB's pull in to holes that are their responsibility and then aren't available to cover if the play doesn't go there. The Barkley run was all of this on steroids. Both LB's stepped into their gaps, the giants ran into a gap that was being covered by a DB, that guy got turned and off Barkley went with no back up from Dallas.

A 2 gap scheme with big defensive tackles means that the defense chooses which blocker gets lined up and frequently forces double teams on the tackles, which frees up linebackers.

If you go back to the Giants game, the DT performance was worse than I even realized. Not only were the DT's handled but the Giants usually did it with one blocker making life harder for all the other defenders.
 

LACowboysFan1

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This is where those big contracts become problematic when team isn't nailing the draft and needs to address a position in FA. Last two games (Giants & Rams) the starting DTs have gotten run off the field. In Rams game, Dallas allowed 5.7 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 273 rushing yards. Against Giants, Dallas allowed 8.9 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 151 rushing yards.

Trysten Hill was drafted in 2nd round to address this glaring weakness on DL. He was inactive for week 1. If he is inactive for week 2 its unreasonable to expect solid production from him this rookie year. This leaves Dallas with what I consider a semi-major problem - they have 2 back up DT playing as starters (Woods & Collins). Collins is in contract year and highly unlikely to get resigned. Its also time Dallas come to conclusion that Antwaun Woods is a feel good story but not starter.

How to fix this:

1) Move Tyrone Crawford inside permanently. This likely means increase in injury potential so not long term fix but might help Dallas get thru this season.

2) Trade Taco, Hyder & draft pick for DT who can rotate and is better than Joe Jackson inside.

3) Sign DT who has question marks on another teams practice squad. This is how they got David Irving.

Oh great, another "the sky is falling" post early in the season.

1. Dallas has enough cap space, especially next year, to sign a "big time" DT. So "the big contracts become problematic" is just wrong.
2. Sick of hearing about the Rams game. Yes, they blew us out in the run game. But it's ONE GAME, last year Dallas was 5th in the league in rush defense over the whole season, giving up 94 ypg, only 14 less than the top two teams. And one of those was the Saints, who put so many points other teams had to throw the ball a lot to keep up, which reduces their opponent's rushing attempts, so their stats may be skewed. Ever think maybe the Cowboys were out-coached?
3. Yes Barkley did well this game. Last year, with basically the same DTs, he rushed for 28 yards in the first game against Dallas, if the personnel was the issue they wouldn't have been able to slow him down so much.
4. Hill is a rookie, not unusual to sit a rookie, even a high draft pick rookie, since he's not familiar with the defense that much. Taco was inactive, also, and he had a very good preseason. Maybe Hill's not in game shape, maybe there was a discipline problem, maybe a lot of things. Can't take "he was inactive" and assume he can't have "solid production", the only thing we know is that he was inactive, for what reason(s) we don't know, based again on one game.
5. So part of the solution is to sign a DT on somebody else's practice squad? Hill's on the active roster, why isn't the other team's DT? Teams don't hide great players on the practice squad, they are on there because they're not "ready for prime time", and some other team would have picked them up if they're that good.
6. Marinelli's defense is based on quickness, not size, the Cowboys aren't going to sign or draft some giant 335 lb DT, it doesn't fit their system. They could have drafted Poe or other NT-type players, if they didn't then they're not going to now, so if you hope for the monster "1 tech" tackle to appear on this team, good luck with that.

Yes the DT spot isn't as strong as the DE, though as some mentioned here, the DEs didn't "shine" either, ONE sack against an aged Eli who was never "fleet of foot". Hardly a sparkling performance, though admittedly a better DT rush might have improved that.

It's the first game, many of these guys didn't play that much in the pre-season, let's give it a few games before we hit the panic button...
 

Sydla

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Oh great, another "the sky is falling" post early in the season.

1. Dallas has enough cap space, especially next year, to sign a "big time" DT. So "the big contracts become problematic" is just wrong.
2. Sick of hearing about the Rams game. Yes, they blew us out in the run game. But it's ONE GAME, last year Dallas was 5th in the league in rush defense over the whole season, giving up 94 ypg, only 14 less than the top two teams. And one of those was the Saints, who put so many points other teams had to throw the ball a lot to keep up, which reduces their opponent's rushing attempts, so their stats may be skewed. Ever think maybe the Cowboys were out-coached?
3. Yes Barkley did well this game. Last year, with basically the same DTs, he rushed for 28 yards in the first game against Dallas, if the personnel was the issue they wouldn't have been able to slow him down so much.
4. Hill is a rookie, not unusual to sit a rookie, even a high draft pick rookie, since he's not familiar with the defense that much. Taco was inactive, also, and he had a very good preseason. Maybe Hill's not in game shape, maybe there was a discipline problem, maybe a lot of things. Can't take "he was inactive" and assume he can't have "solid production", the only thing we know is that he was inactive, for what reason(s) we don't know, based again on one game.
5. So part of the solution is to sign a DT on somebody else's practice squad? Hill's on the active roster, why isn't the other team's DT? Teams don't hide great players on the practice squad, they are on there because they're not "ready for prime time", and some other team would have picked them up if they're that good.
6. Marinelli's defense is based on quickness, not size, the Cowboys aren't going to sign or draft some giant 335 lb DT, it doesn't fit their system. They could have drafted Poe or other NT-type players, if they didn't then they're not going to now, so if you hope for the monster "1 tech" tackle to appear on this team, good luck with that.

Yes the DT spot isn't as strong as the DE, though as some mentioned here, the DEs didn't "shine" either, ONE sack against an aged Eli who was never "fleet of foot". Hardly a sparkling performance, though admittedly a better DT rush might have improved that.

It's the first game, many of these guys didn't play that much in the pre-season, let's give it a few games before we hit the panic button...

It wasn't one game.

People forget the Colts ran wild on us too. And the Giants just rolled up rushing yardage too on us just a few days ago.

There is no dominant player inside. No one that you can count on to come up with a big play. We are an interior DL that works (by design) on quickness and scheme. And if you run across a team that can either out muscle you or scheme you (like the Colts and Rams did), we have problems.

It's high time the franchise thinks about finally moving on from Marinelli IMO this offseason.

As for Hill, yes, it's a bit unusual for a high draft pick (1-2 rounder) to not even make the active 46. Especially when the three DTs we did have as active aren't exactly Aaron Donald and Fletcher Cox running out there.

As I have said, it's too soon to just write him off but the reality is that when you couple the well documented struggles in camp, the lack of any real show in preseason against backup types and the fact he can't get active for Game 1, it paints a picture of a guy who is way too raw right now and likely shouldn't be viewed as a guy to provide much this season, at least early. People can try to spin this if they want, but I suspect the front office's plan wasn't to draft a guy at a position of need that can't even get active in his first NFL game. I think they were surprised when they got him into camp and saw him perform just how raw he was.
 
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LACowboysFan1

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It wasn't one game.

People forget the Colts ran wild on us too. And the Giants just rolled up rushing yardage too on us just a few games ago.

There is no dominant player inside. No one that you can count on to come up with a big play. We are a interior DL that works (by design) on quickness and scheme. And if you run across a team that can either out muscle you or scheme you (like the Colts and Rams did), we have problems.

It's high time the franchise thinks about finally moving on from Marinelli IMO this offseason.


I would certainly agree on that, his scheme is outdated, he's been here long enough...
 

JayFord

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We need one fat dude in the middle that’ll solve this issue

When I say fat I’m talking 6’3 380 pounds one lineman block his chest and the other block his stomach

He don’t need no tackles or sacks just take up space
 

quickccc

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This is where those big contracts become problematic when team isn't nailing the draft and needs to address a position in FA. Last two games (Giants & Rams) the starting DTs have gotten run off the field. In Rams game, Dallas allowed 5.7 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 273 rushing yards. Against Giants, Dallas allowed 8.9 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 151 rushing yards.

Trysten Hill was drafted in 2nd round to address this glaring weakness on DL. He was inactive for week 1. If he is inactive for week 2 its unreasonable to expect solid production from him this rookie year. This leaves Dallas with what I consider a semi-major problem - they have 2 back up DT playing as starters (Woods & Collins). Collins is in contract year and highly unlikely to get resigned. Its also time Dallas come to conclusion that Antwaun Woods is a feel good story but not starter.

How to fix this:

1) Move Tyrone Crawford inside permanently. This likely means increase in injury potential so not long term fix but might help Dallas get thru this season.

2) Trade Taco, Hyder & draft pick for DT who can rotate and is better than Joe Jackson inside.

3) Sign DT who has question marks on another teams practice squad. This is how they got David Irving.


1) Yeh I could see moving Crawford to “ nickel” DT permanently - but that doesn’t immediately help this DL unit.
He’s not, and shouldn’t be a starter type on this scheme period The more he is forced to start at either DE or DT, the more exposed and vulnerable our DL becomes.
Spot him in the middle interior in rotation and nickel pass situation, where he can use his quickness, maneuvers and relentlessness and he can help produce results
But if you’re talking and meaning to “ start’ Crawford inside, that’s already become a losing point. He started there last year because Maliek was hurt (again)

2) if we are trading Taco, it is simply because he has become such a malcontent behind the scenes that Cowboys organization can’t wait to get him off the roster even at the expense
of taking a big cap hit to do so.
But there’s a question of what kind of quality player you can get off another teams roster, via trade, as they likely value that player just as much.
We’ll likely just get another rotation/decent type at best
Ditto with pouching a practice squad player., in the same sense as we did David Irving. That’s’ a move for more depth/development than it is finding an immediate impact starter .

3) I really want to see what vet Covington is made of, I don't expect special but I do wonder if he can out produce/outperform an average Antwuann Woods.
 

JoeKing

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Collins and Woods are just fine and will be retained if they do a good job this season. I think a great deal of assumptions are being made by the OP to come up with that panicked opinion. :rolleyes:
 

Parcells4Life

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This defense is predicated on rushing the passer not stopping the run. The scheme wants small quick d tackles who penetrate and get the RB on the way to the QB. It is not meant to form an impenetrable wall.

The LBs are supposed to flow to plug up the remaining holes vacated by the DL on run plays.
 

Hennessy_King

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Crawford was straight trash against the run and so was our starting SS. LB's constantly overpursued. Soft like marshmallows at DT. Against good offensive lines we are in trouble. They better figure it out.
 

Hennessy_King

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This defense is predicated on rushing the passer not stopping the run. The scheme wants small quick d tackles who penetrate and get the RB on the way to the QB. It is not meant to form an impenetrable wall.

The LBs are supposed to flow to plug up the remaining holes vacated by the DL on run plays.
And when your DTs get no pressure on the QB as well it's a joke of a scheme.
 

LACowboysFan1

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We need one fat dude in the middle that’ll solve this issue

When I say fat I’m talking 6’3 380 pounds one lineman block his chest and the other block his stomach

He don’t need no tackles or sacks just take up space

Patriots won the SB with starting DTs at 315 and 320 lbs. 635 lbs total.

Dallas' starters this last game were Collins at 308 and Woods at 313. 621 lbs total. Per man, 7 lbs each heavier for the Pats.

It's not the size that holds Dallas' run defense, when it fails. It's scheme and technique more than anything.

Athlon sports ranked the top 10 Defensive tackles, 3-4 and 4-3 teams. Here's the names and weights:

Cox 310
Jones 310
Buckner 295
Atkins 302
Garrett 291
Rankins 287
Harrison 351
Casey 305
Reed 306
Short 315

TWO players on that list exceed Woods' weight. 6 of those weigh less than Collins.

Do we need better DTs? Appears so, but size is NOT the problem, if it was how do the players above get so highly rated?

There's more to playing DT in the NFL than sheer bulk, if that's all there is to it, I know right now about a dozen guys who weigh at least 350 lbs that would love to get paid a few million dollars a year to play the NFL. Let me know who to contact in Dallas and I'll get them to go up there and make this run defense super!
 

kskboys

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Patriots won the SB with starting DTs at 315 and 320 lbs. 635 lbs total.

Dallas' starters this last game were Collins at 308 and Woods at 313. 621 lbs total. Per man, 7 lbs each heavier for the Pats.

It's not the size that holds Dallas' run defense, when it fails. It's scheme and technique more than anything.

Athlon sports ranked the top 10 Defensive tackles, 3-4 and 4-3 teams. Here's the names and weights:

Cox 310
Jones 310
Buckner 295
Atkins 302
Garrett 291
Rankins 287
Harrison 351
Casey 305
Reed 306
Short 315

TWO players on that list exceed Woods' weight. 6 of those weigh less than Collins.

Do we need better DTs? Appears so, but size is NOT the problem, if it was how do the players above get so highly rated?

There's more to playing DT in the NFL than sheer bulk, if that's all there is to it, I know right now about a dozen guys who weigh at least 350 lbs that would love to get paid a few million dollars a year to play the NFL. Let me know who to contact in Dallas and I'll get them to go up there and make this run defense super!
It's not the weight, it's the build and the type of player. Malcolm Brown and Danny Shelton are both monster middle cloggers.

Comparing players using weight for the DL is almost irrelevant.
 

LACowboysFan1

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It's not the weight, it's the build and the type of player. Malcolm Brown and Danny Shelton are both monster middle cloggers.

Comparing players using weight for the DL is almost irrelevant.

My point exactly, it's NOT THE WEIGHT, it's technique, attitude, etc.

But we constantly see posts here that say our "undersized" DTs are the problem, the fact is if they're not undersized as compared to top rated DTs...
 

Legend

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Upgrade the DTs, safety position, and/or DC by the trade deadline. The 9-7 Giants defeated the powerful Patriots twice in SBs with a great DL.
 

CowboyRoy

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This is where those big contracts become problematic when team isn't nailing the draft and needs to address a position in FA. Last two games (Giants & Rams) the starting DTs have gotten run off the field. In Rams game, Dallas allowed 5.7 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 273 rushing yards. Against Giants, Dallas allowed 8.9 avg yards per rushing attempt for total of 151 rushing yards.

Trysten Hill was drafted in 2nd round to address this glaring weakness on DL. He was inactive for week 1. If he is inactive for week 2 its unreasonable to expect solid production from him this rookie year. This leaves Dallas with what I consider a semi-major problem - they have 2 back up DT playing as starters (Woods & Collins). Collins is in contract year and highly unlikely to get resigned. Its also time Dallas come to conclusion that Antwaun Woods is a feel good story but not starter.

How to fix this:

1) Move Tyrone Crawford inside permanently. This likely means increase in injury potential so not long term fix but might help Dallas get thru this season.

2) Trade Taco, Hyder & draft pick for DT who can rotate and is better than Joe Jackson inside.

3) Sign DT who has question marks on another teams practice squad. This is how they got David Irving.

We have major issues all along the line. Quinn is a rental. We need 2 DT's and a DE.

I think Hill will with another offseason can take one spot. But we definitely need to go out and sign a quality DT.
 

CowboyRoy

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Those big contracts have absolutely nothing to do with what we have at DT. This team has neglected to address DT numerous times. The best they have been willing to do is this past year with Trystan Hill in the 2nd round.

Collins is a NFL starter in this league. Woods may be a backup. DT is about exactly how Safety is in this league. Most teams have average starters at those spots.....but there are a few teams with game changers back there. You gotta find them. I don't think the Cowboys have spent the proper resources in shoring that up and its why they sit here with what they have.

Nonsense. Many teams have great DT's and prioritize it and same with safety.

Collins is a JAG. We need ONE stud DT on this line.

We either go DT or safety with our first pick next year.
 
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