Dallas might need 2 new starting DTs next year

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,926
Reaction score
47,725
My point exactly, it's NOT THE WEIGHT, it's technique, attitude, etc.

But we constantly see posts here that say our "undersized" DTs are the problem, the fact is if they're not undersized as compared to top rated DTs...
Yup, it's not the size. Our problem has been that we keep trotting out 3 techs to play the 1 tech position. Which might mean more pass rush, but also means less strength up the middle. Why oh why don't people remember Rats getting washed out against the Ravens for two long runs up the middle? You need that clogger to stop that nonsense.
 

visionary

Well-Known Member
Messages
27,712
Reaction score
32,198
They should have made a play for McCoy when he was cut by Tampa.

For all the pub they get from fans about their drafting and player acquisition skills, IMO, they continue to come up short (or wrongly skimp) at DT.
This
 

stilltheguru

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,713
Reaction score
13,552
You said this while quoting me. Maybe explain yourself better.

Plus, few called him trash.

But he's also a FA so when Wood says we may need two DTs next year, he's not far from the truth because maybe Collins signs somewhere else.
I wasn’t responding to the thread starter either. I responded to the (few) who called them trash and brought up guys who did as much as Collins and Woods did Sunday.
 

quickccc

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,232
Reaction score
14,124
We need one fat dude in the middle that’ll solve this issue

When I say fat I’m talking 6’3 380 pounds one lineman block his chest and the other block his stomach

He don’t need no tackles or sacks just take up space

I don’t have a problem with a coach wanting prototypes and preferences, - so long as that he can successfully find a way to make these preferences work.
I don’t have a problem with a 310 pound type guy – so long as that 310 pounder plays bigger and stronger than what his size suggest.

Whether he’s 305 lbs .. or 340 pounds, we need to get a guy as a 1 tech that can make plays, in the sense of occupying two blockers,.. disrupting- penetrating/make tackles for losses in backfield, and be such an immovable force, teams simply have difficult running inside.

But even Jimmie johnson said he did not believe in ‘fat guys’ he said he wanted guys that make plays on the move rather than a clogger that stay in one place. He didn’t want Freddie Gilberts.
And we had under 300-pound guys like tony Casillas, chad henning, Russell Maryland, james jones, and leon lett.

If I look all across the league with the better, top run defending 4-3 schemes, how many of them will have that 330-340+ lbs ‘ fat guys “ would we find ?

I don’t have a problem investing in a 3rd or 4th round pick in a special run stuffing DT. But under Marinelli, we don’t seem to be directed towards that.
Somehow he seems to have sold management into not needing a use a high or middle draft pick for a very tough 1 tech stuffer.

Since trying a gamble signing on the failed Cedric Thorton, we have resorting to these bargain based approach.
These average to decent bargain based vet FA and JAG’s .. like Nick Hayden, Richard Ash, Terrell McClain, Stephen Paea, Bryan Price, Antwuann Woods, Daniel Ross, Covington, etc
 

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
27,885
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
We also need better DTs to collapse pocket when the Cowboys start to play pass happy opponents like Saints, Patriots, Rams, etc.

After one regular season game I'm not rushing to judgement.
 

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
27,885
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Maybe, maybe not. If the middle is stout, the LB's and DE's don't have to crash in to protect it.

Let's given them at least a couple more games before we pass judgement on their overall quality.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,926
Reaction score
47,725
I don’t have a problem with a coach wanting prototypes and preferences, - so long as that he can successfully find a way to make these preferences work.
I don’t have a problem with a 310 pound type guy – so long as that 310 pounder plays bigger and stronger than what his size suggest.

Whether he’s 305 lbs .. or 340 pounds, we need to get a guy as a 1 tech that can make plays, in the sense of occupying two blockers,.. disrupting- penetrating/make tackles for losses in backfield, and be such an immovable force, teams simply have difficult running inside.

But even Jimmie johnson said he did not believe in ‘fat guys’ he said he wanted guys that make plays on the move rather than a clogger that stay in one place. He didn’t want Freddie Gilberts.
And we had under 300-pound guys like tony Casillas, chad henning, Russell Maryland, james jones, and leon lett.

If I look all across the league with the better, top run defending 4-3 schemes, how many of them will have that 330-340+ lbs ‘ fat guys “ would we find ?

I don’t have a problem investing in a 3rd or 4th round pick in a special run stuffing DT. But under Marinelli, we don’t seem to be directed towards that.
Somehow he seems to have sold management into not needing a use a high or middle draft pick for a very tough 1 tech stuffer.

Since trying a gamble signing on the failed Cedric Thorton, we have resorting to these bargain based approach.
These average to decent bargain based vet FA and JAG’s .. like Nick Hayden, Richard Ash, Terrell McClain, Stephen Paea, Bryan Price, Antwuann Woods, Daniel Ross, Covington, etc
And Thornton was a 3 tech type, not a stuffer.

I think all the top 4-3 D's have a run stuffer at NT. Let's see, offhand, MINN/4th, 329lb Linval. Cowboys/7th/Woods at 312. SD/9th/Mebane at 311. Jax/5th/Abry Jones at 318. BUFF/2nd/Lotulelei at 315.

Those are the top 10 4-3 D's. As you can see, we are the only one w/o a stuffer. Once again, it's not size.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,926
Reaction score
47,725
Let's given them at least a couple more games before we pass judgement on their overall quality.
Ohhhhh, IDK, I'm still bamfoozled at the Rams playoff game. Woods was hurt, though.

Still, I'm even more bamfoozled at our insistence at playing two 3 techs at the DT positions. In the history of the NFL, I've never seen it work consistently. That's why you'll see us shut down one team, only to be followed by someone gashing us up the middle. What we have, IMO, works against bad and mediocre teams, but gets torn up in the playoffs. This is what I've observed in my years of watching football.
 

quickccc

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,232
Reaction score
14,124
Oh great, another "the sky is falling" post early in the season.

1. Dallas has enough cap space, especially next year, to sign a "big time" DT. So "the big contracts become problematic" is just wrong.
2. Sick of hearing about the Rams game. Yes, they blew us out in the run game. But it's ONE GAME, last year Dallas was 5th in the league in rush defense over the whole season, giving up 94 ypg, only 14 less than the top two teams. And one of those was the Saints, who put so many points other teams had to throw the ball a lot to keep up, which reduces their opponent's rushing attempts, so their stats may be skewed. Ever think maybe the Cowboys were out-coached?
3. Yes Barkley did well this game. Last year, with basically the same DTs, he rushed for 28 yards in the first game against Dallas, if the personnel was the issue they wouldn't have been able to slow him down so much.
4. Hill is a rookie, not unusual to sit a rookie, even a high draft pick rookie, since he's not familiar with the defense that much. Taco was inactive, also, and he had a very good preseason. Maybe Hill's not in game shape, maybe there was a discipline problem, maybe a lot of things. Can't take "he was inactive" and assume he can't have "solid production", the only thing we know is that he was inactive, for what reason(s) we don't know, based again on one game.
5. So part of the solution is to sign a DT on somebody else's practice squad? Hill's on the active roster, why isn't the other team's DT? Teams don't hide great players on the practice squad, they are on there because they're not "ready for prime time", and some other team would have picked them up if they're that good.
6. Marinelli's defense is based on quickness, not size, the Cowboys aren't going to sign or draft some giant 335 lb DT, it doesn't fit their system. They could have drafted Poe or other NT-type players, if they didn't then they're not going to now, so if you hope for the monster "1 tech" tackle to appear on this team, good luck with that.

Yes the DT spot isn't as strong as the DE, though as some mentioned here, the DEs didn't "shine" either, ONE sack against an aged Eli who was never "fleet of foot". Hardly a sparkling performance, though admittedly a better DT rush might have improved that.
It's the first game, many of these guys didn't play that much in the pre-season, let's give it a few games before we hit the panic button...

The irony is while I’m also just as tired of hearing about our sorry run defense vs the Rams in the playoffs …. I’m also tired of hearing how we were ranked 5th in the NFL vs the run, when we had six total teams on our 2018 schedule that ran for over 100+ yards on this 5th ranked defense while ON -THE- ROAD.

What I keep shaking my head over is this excuse of saying it was the just Rams game with our poor run defense, but we were already having our issues vs the run .

Oh we fared very well vs the run AT HOME … with only one team (Tennessee) managed to gain 100+ yards rushing total against at home.

But on the road- we had five teams in 2018 that we surrender over 100 yrd rushing: That's why I keep telling people that some stats can be misleading, go to the eyeball test as well.

In 2018:
1) at Carolina 147 yards (per cam newton RPO highlights)

2) at Seattle 113 yards (per c. carson 102 yds)

3) at Washington 130 yds ( per A. Peterson’s 99 yds)

4) at Indy 178 ( per C. Mack’s 139 yds)

5) at NYG 143 (per barkley’s 107 yds)

6) playoffs/ at LARams 273 yds ( per Gurley 115 , CJ Anderson 123yds )


If Hill continues to “sit’ on the game day inactive and for most/much of the season - that will be unusual, as you don’t sit/redshirt 2nd round picks, those guys are supposed to be talented/ draft regarded enough to contribute in some kind of capacity
Jerry had already said in pre-post game draft conferences, that they expect their 1st to -3rd round guys to contribute immediately
 

quickccc

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,232
Reaction score
14,124
And Thornton was a 3 tech type, not a stuffer.

I think all the top 4-3 D's have a run stuffer at NT. Let's see, offhand, MINN/4th, 329lb Linval. Cowboys/7th/Woods at 312. SD/9th/Mebane at 311. Jax/5th/Abry Jones at 318. BUFF/2nd/Lotulelei at 315.

Those are the top 10 4-3 D's. As you can see, we are the only one w/o a stuffer. Once again, it's not size.

though they did not sign on thorton to be a 3 tech, they signed him to be a 1 tech (nose tackle) .
For whatever reason while he excelled vs run with the Eagles (at that time, they played a 3-4 scheme I believe) he never adjusted in playing the one tech here in the 4-3.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas-co...oys-add-size-athleticism-with-cedric-thornton
 

jjktkk

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,283
Reaction score
1,363
I am far more alarmed at his complete lack of any impact during the course of 4 PS games spent largely going up against other teams' back-ups, practice squads, and future fast-food line cooks.
I get that. But you can't just banish him and label him a bust after 5 months can you?
 

Manster_Mash

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,399
Reaction score
1,918
I get that. But you can't just banish him and label him a bust after 5 months can you?
I dont think anyone here is clamoring to banish him. It was the team that banished him to the inactive list, not us fans.

Agree that you cant call him a bust yet, but if he was a stock Jim Cramer would be pounding the 'Sell' button.
 

Zekeats

theranchsucks
Messages
12,924
Reaction score
15,343
Should’ve reached in the draft with our second round pick.
 

TheMarathonContinues

Well-Known Member
Messages
75,961
Reaction score
70,277
Nonsense. Many teams have great DT's and prioritize it and same with safety.

Collins is a JAG. We need ONE stud DT on this line.

We either go DT or safety with our first pick next year.
Yeah I disagree. When you talk about premiere DT's in this league it isn't very long. There are more average to below average DT's in this league than there are actual above average to premiere guys. Same goes for Safety.

This whole "Jag" title. IT bothers me. Antwan Woods is a JAG. Collins is not that. When healthy he's proven he can play in this league.

Jackson was another I would have looked at.
Yeah I don't know ion he was interested in coming here but Malik Jackson was definitely someone I would've looked at. And from what I remember the contract wasn't even a big one.
 

TheMarathonContinues

Well-Known Member
Messages
75,961
Reaction score
70,277
I would have rather they would gone after Gerald McCoy than draft a project who isn't even going to be playing much this year in the 2md round. They didn't even kick the tires or even give an offer to McCoy. How would they know if he's all washed up or not.

Well that's why the Bucc's got rid of him because was washed lol. I wouldn't have had a problem with going after him. Hill was never about this season. He was never meant to come in and fill a need. I don't know what the Cowboys intentions are with the salary cap. Like they clearly wanted to set aside money to re-sign their own guys. Adding Quinn and Cobb's contracts.....I don't know how much they had left get a McCoy. I personally liked Malik Jackson or that role.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,926
Reaction score
47,725
though they did not sign on thorton to be a 3 tech, they signed him to be a 1 tech (nose tackle) .
For whatever reason while he excelled vs run with the Eagles (at that time, they played a 3-4 scheme I believe) he never adjusted in playing the one tech here in the 4-3.

https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas-co...oys-add-size-athleticism-with-cedric-thornton
That's why I said a 3 tech "type". Thornton was 6-4/309. Not even the right build of NT. Thornton was a 3-4 DE for the Eagles. We had already previously tried our own 3-4 DE at NT in Spears, and we found out that stopping the run from the DE position is entirely different than stopping the run at NT. Welllll, we should have found out. Signing a 3-4 DE to play NT was dumber'n dirt.
 
Top