Derrick Brown possibly being on the board at 17

[Fredbeard]

If we get Brown at 17 then i'm fine with it.

I just don't think it's as much of a difference making move as some on here think it will be.

If Kinlaw becomes elite at what he does best and Brown becomes elite at what he does best then give me Kinlaw all day.



What would be funny is if the Cowboys chose CJ Henderson over Brown..

Then what is the point of this thread?kinlaw 's
Stock has already began to rise so it is likely he will be drafted ahead of brown now ,right?
Kinlaw is easily the best three tech prospect of the draft and brown is easily the best one tech prospect , the cowboys couldn't go wrong with draft either one . The point I was trying to make is combine performance should be only one of a myriad of factors a team should consider before drafting a player. I brought up trysten Hill because the cowboys were so awestruck with his combine performance
They seemed to ignore his reported character issues and the fact he was a small school prospect.

 

[Fredbeard]

Idk what this is in response to, specifically. But Chiefs had the 5th-worst run defense in the NFL last year. Houston had DJ Reader and finished 27th. Baltimore had Pierce and finished 21st. Run stuffers don't matter.

You stop the run with scheme, that's it. Offenses prevent that from happening by throwing the football effectively.

But the buccaneers had the NFL's second ranked run and they had vita vea. The saints finished 2018 with a top five run defense yet
They signed malcolm brown and I believe they still finished with a top five run defense in 2019

 

[Future]

But the buccaneers had the NFL's second ranked run and they had vita vea. The saints finished 2018 with a top five run defense yet
They signed malcolm brown and I believe they still finished with a top five run defense in 2019

Right. So there is absolutely 0 correlation between run stuffers and a good run d

 

[Jake0]

Right. So there is absolutely 0 correlation between run stuffers and a good run d

Nobody ran on Tampa Bay. Good to elite RBs would frequently have 2-3 ypc games against them. I'd say Vea, Suh and Devin White had a lot to do with that. They gave up a ton of pass yards with a terrible secondary but you gotta give them some credit for working with Jameis throwing 30 picks.

 

[Fredbeard]

Right. So there is absolutely 0 correlation between run stuffers and a good run d

Ok . You've convinced me

 

[beware_d-ware]

I've said it before: in a one-gap run defense scheme, the strength/integrity of your run defense is basically the sum of its parts. You fill every gap with a defender, and there will be nowhere for the back to go. When guys start losing their assignments, then you start getting cutback lanes and seams.

With that being said, let's look at the guys Tampa Bay has up front.

Barrett: I don't think he contributes anything against the run, but hey, 19 sacks are cool too.
Vea: a god against the run.
Suh: haven't watched him in a while, but he's been a great run stuffer throughout his career
JPP: very good edge setter.
Lavonte David: loooong one of the league's most underrated players, elite LB
Devin White: sucked at the beginning of the year, but turned it on in the second half.

Run D's a team effort, and overall the Bucs had a very strong team. Vea's a big part of that, and you can bet White and David love him, but he's only a single part of the equation too.

 

[Jake0]

I didn't look into injuries and whatnot that is way too much work, but you can just take a quick glance at what RBs did and see what an elite run defense looks like.

McCaffrey - 16 att 37 yards 2.3 ypc, 22 att 31 yards 1.4 ypc. Probably CMac's worst games of the year by a mile.
Saquon - 8 att 10 yards 1.3 ypc
Gurley - 5 att 16 yards 3.2ypc
Henry - 16 att 75 yards 4.7 ypc
Fournette - 14 att 38 yards 2.7 ypc
Mack - 13 att 38 yards 2.9 ypc
Kenyan Drake - 10 att 35 yards 3.5 ypc
Carlos Hyde - 17 att 27 yards 1.6 ypc
Freeman - 18 att 58 yards 3.2 ypc
Kamara - 16 att 62 yards 3.9ypc, 13 att 75 yards 5.8ypc - kinda average here.
Carson - 16 att 105 yards 6.6 ypc - He broke a 59 yarder and was the most damage of anyone on the year.

If their secondary and qb play improves they will be major problems in the NFC. Hargreaves being a massive bust set them back a lot. Anyway, coaches need players to make these kind of numbers happen for sure.

 

[beware_d-ware]

I didn't look into injuries and whatnot that is way too much work, but you can just take a quick glance at what RBs did and see what an elite run defense looks like.

McCaffrey - 16 att 37 yards 2.3 ypc, 22 att 31 yards 1.4 ypc. Probably CMac's worst games of the year by a mile.
Saquon - 8 att 10 yards 1.3 ypc
Gurley - 5 att 16 yards 3.2ypc
Henry - 16 att 75 yards 4.7 ypc
Fournette - 14 att 38 yards 2.7 ypc
Mack - 13 att 38 yards 2.9 ypc
Kenyan Drake - 10 att 35 yards 3.5 ypc
Carlos Hyde - 17 att 27 yards 1.6 ypc
Freeman - 18 att 58 yards 3.2 ypc
Kamara - 16 att 62 yards 3.9ypc, 13 att 75 yards 5.8ypc - kinda average here.
Carson - 16 att 105 yards 6.6 ypc - He broke a 59 yarder and was the most damage of anyone on the year.

If their secondary and qb play improves they will be major problems in the NFC. Hargreaves being a massive bust set them back a lot. Anyway, coaches need players to make these kind of numbers happen for sure.

They remind me of the Titans this year - ready to go on a run as soon as the QB falls in to place.

They were 7-9 this year with a QB that threw 30 freaking interceptions - cut that number down to a dozen, give your offense 18 more drives to score, give your defense 18 more breaks, and see how many of those 9 games you would win.

 

[cnuball21]

They remind me of the Titans this year - ready to go on a run as soon as the QB falls in to place.

They were 7-9 this year with a QB that threw 30 freaking interceptions - cut that number down to a dozen, give your offense 18 more drives to score, give your defense 18 more breaks, and see how many of those 9 games you would win.

They also lost the heart and sole of the entire team...man I’m gonna miss watching Kuechly play football.

I live in NC so always get the Panthers games. Can honestly say he’s arguably the best LBr I’ve seen play in my lifetime (I’m early 30s).

He’s basically a more athletic Sean Lee that didn’t get hurt.

 

[HellCrowe]

You get this man if he drops... after Kinlaw of course

 

[kskboys]

Ok . You've convinced me

I have to admit, very few times, even on these boards, do I see direct contradictory facts presented to someone, and they insist on keeping their POV anyway, even after it's been completely disassembled and squushed into a mushy pile.

 

[Daygoboy6191]

If this team get Linval Joseph or a Snacks Harrison you've improved instantly against the run. They are both 1-2 year deal type of guys who give you time to groom your next 1 tech and allows you to fill other needs in the draft. There's a handful of guys in FA that will be relatively inexpensive via FA where we do not need to draft a 1 tech high. With that being said I am not interested in Brown at 17, but Kinlaw gives you a Jason Hatcher type production in his contract year if the knees are right and I would be thrilled if we took him at 17.

If you can get double digit sacks from the interior and stout against the run that is a recipe for success, and Kinlaw can provide that where Brown cannot. To me, it's not even a discussion.

 

[cnuball21]

If this team get Linval Joseph or a Snacks Harrison you've improved instantly against the run. They are both 1-2 year deal type of guys who give you time to groom your next 1 tech and allows you to fill other needs in the draft. There's a handful of guys in FA that will be relatively inexpensive via FA where we do not need to draft a 1 tech high. With that being said I am not interested in Brown at 17, but Kinlaw gives you a Jason Hatcher type production in his contract year if the knees are right and I would be thrilled if we took him at 17.

If you can get double digit sacks from the interior and stout against the run that is a recipe for success, and Kinlaw can provide that where Brown cannot. To me, it's not even a discussion.

I’m just not buying that Brown isn’t good against the pass. He has 28 pressures and 5 sacks last year. I think Kinlaw is better, but Brown is more we’ll rounded.

Brown has 34 stops last year...Kinlaw has 19 so the run defense isn’t close.

I’d argue Kinlaw is worse against the run than Brown is a against the pass.

I understand the pass rush upside in Kinlaw will go higher, but I see Brown as the more complete player right now and safer pick.

 

[DanA]

I’m just not buying that Brown isn’t good against the pass. He has 28 pressures and 5 sacks last year. I think Kinlaw is better, but Brown is more we’ll rounded.

Brown has 34 stops last year...Kinlaw has 19 so the run defense isn’t close.

I’d argue Kinlaw is worse against the run than Brown is a against the pass.

I understand the pass rush upside in Kinlaw will go higher, but I see Brown as the more complete player right now and safer pick.

I'd agree but I do think the way Kinlaw wins translates better in the NFL. There are a lot of guards with the strength and footwork to marginalize Brown's power but I can't think of a guard that is going to be comfortable with Kinlaws speed, strength, size and reach combination.

 

[cnuball21]

I'd agree but I do think the way Kinlaw wins translates better in the NFL. There are a lot of guards with the strength and footwork to marginalize Brown's power but I can't think of a guard that is going to be comfortable with Kinlaws speed, strength, size and reach combination.

That’s fair...he just needs to refine it a bit.

I think Brown wins with more than just power but that is a big piece of his game.

 

[Daygoboy6191]

I'd agree but I do think the way Kinlaw wins translates better in the NFL. There are a lot of guards with the strength and footwork to marginalize Brown's power but I can't think of a guard that is going to be comfortable with Kinlaws speed, strength, size and reach combination.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Kinlaw has the rare blend of top tier athleticism and size, and it's not about if he has the strength because he does, but it's more about pad level and leverage which can be taught and isn't the hardest to learn if you are willing to learn it.

Derrick Brown is a big strong guy can eat up blockers might push the pocket at times but those guys don't turn into high rate sack guys at the next level and I don't forsee anything to be different with Brown. If given a large workload and you don't get sacks there at a high rate, don't expect them to come into the NFL and be a sack guy. Brown will be your Linval or Damon Snacks Harrison which is fine, but not a 1st round draft pick IMO.

 

[Fredbeard]

I have to admit, very few times, even on these boards, do I see direct contradictory facts presented to someone, and they insist on keeping their POV anyway, even after it's been completely disassembled and squushed into a mushy pile.

Honestly , I'm starting to realize it is best to just ignore some posters

 

[Macnalty]

I think this is a realistic possibility at this point.

I always felt he was overrated in terms of what he is good at and the value that provides to the team. Me personally I wouldn't draft a run stuffing D Tackle in the 1st round. I feel like you can get a veteran version of this player cheap in Free Agency.

He had a bad combine and I don't see him being a pressure player at the next level.

IMO Kinlaw is the #1 DT in this draft because he can put heat on the QB.



So.. If we get to draft day and Brown is on the board what do you do? Draft him and accept that he will not be much of a difference maker?

Please let me wake you from this dream, no way Brown falls. More likely a big run on QB's which would help us but still leave us short on Dline help as for sure the Falcons are after the same talent. Not sure a trade would provide immediate help other that some of the top five talent and that would prohibitive IMO, the worst draft move we made was letting Byron Jones go unsigned last year, it has seriously weakened our position in this years draft. Thanks Stephen

 

[Hardline]

I want them to attempt as many runs as they want. Everytime they don’t pass it’s a W.

Running the ball well is the most consistent way to win.

 

[kskboys]

I’m just not buying that Brown isn’t good against the pass. He has 28 pressures and 5 sacks last year. I think Kinlaw is better, but Brown is more we’ll rounded.

Brown has 34 stops last year...Kinlaw has 19 so the run defense isn’t close.

I’d argue Kinlaw is worse against the run than Brown is a against the pass.

I understand the pass rush upside in Kinlaw will go higher, but I see Brown as the more complete player right now and safer pick.

Brown has almost no bust potential. Kinlaw's is much higher. Kinlaw is very raw, and is more of an athlete than a football player at this point and tends to lose the leverage battle too often at the LOS. Doesn't always anchor. Could become Chris Jones, could become Joey Ivie.