Devils advocate

[iceberg]

Kosier had a lot of teams interested- and they are all more qualified to judge him then ANYONE on this board. The HOtel is a good LT. He will certainly be better then Tucker was. Johnson has put on 12 lbs supposedly this offseason- so we can deduce that he should be a lot harder to push back now. Rivera from several accounts is working real hard- and the man has a lot of pride; so he SHOULD be better this year. Fabini is better then Pettiti by a good margin; and Pettiti should be a lot better this year. So YES the O line SHOULD Be a significant amount BETTER this year.

and rivera SHOULD HAVE had a great year last year.
flo NEVER has been our golden boy before but sans a real one, we'll make one up.

fine people - disagree. but all this SHOULD BE to tell me i'm wrong is no more than me saying WON'T BE and it just being my opinion.

 

[Apollo Creed]

i'm well aware i could be in the minority for my opinion, but then we're talking about a group of fans who last year hated TO with the white hot passion of a thousand dying suns and actually cheered the eagles for sitting his pompous arse down.

The only reason we cheered was because we were tired of him raping us for 100+ yards and 2 TDs every time we played them.

 

[iceberg]

The only reason we cheered was because we were tired of him raping us for 100+ yards and 2 TDs every time we played them.

you maybe. i was glad someone had enough of his contract breaking arse and sat him down.

 

[burmafrd]

We have a lot more reason to think our way then you do yours. We are basing the past history of the entire career of players like Adams and Fabini and RIvera while you are using last years only. The empirical evidence is on OUR side.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Seeing how I choke on the kool-aid being passed around... and that it is so very slow at the moment...I thought I would try and look at how things MIGHT be..

let us start by looking back at last years schedule

http://www.dallascowboys.com/schedule.cfm

we beat 2 playoff teams...that is it (the NYG and the Carolina Panthers)
we got smoked by powerhouses such as Oakland and St. Louis and almost got our lunch handed to us by San Fran. (lets not use the tired of excuse we weren't playing for anything the last game of the year..cause that is just crap)...

I have heard my cowboy breathren talking about how we were smoking good before Flo went down...again that is just crap...we won a squeeker against a SD team that had no regular season tape on us playing a 3-4, they were without there probowl TE and just weren't that good last year... we got whipped by the Commanders @ HOME...almost got whipped by a very sorry SF team and we lost to a pitiful oakland team...we played a Philly team that was totally dysfuctional and Flo gets injured during the Giants game and we squeek out a win... I wouldn't call that smoking good...would you?

and you all pretty much said we were sucking after Flo went down so no sense going there...

I hear how all these 1st year players are going to be so much better... (Brady James anyone) It sometimes takes awhile folks...

plus all the questions

Can JuJo stay healthy?
Is the o-line really better?
Bledsoe's second season in Buff wasn't so good...what about in Dallas?
Will Terry Glenn finish the season..he has only done it 3 times in 11 years?
what will the new pieces do mesh together or pull apart?
How will the new coaches do?
Will the circus that follows TO be too big of a distraction?
Flo (when he was healthy) was barely adequete...coming off injury he is a ?

Divisional foes much better...If a team doesn't win this divison it is a good chance that it will not get a Wildcard....

Minn, Chi, Seat, Caro, Atl, TB, NYG, PE, Wash maybe a team out of the west with there lightweight opp. have a winning record such as the Cards... you can make a case for each of these teams winning there div. or getting a wildcard

I won't go into the what ifs...i.e what if Tnew goes down for the year


like I said, just playing Devils advocate...so don't choke on that Kool-aid

Posts like this make me thankful that I'm not only the biggest pessimist alive, but thankful that Ia ctually know something about football.

The Commanders didnt "smoke" anything, they needed not one, but 2 miracles and a blown call to win.

We destroyed Philly, and NY was 11-5 last year, I'll take a squeker over a division winner anyday.

I love how you also forget that we came within a kicker of beating Denver and Seattle, a SB team and a team that made the AFC title game.

Had we had a kicker, we would have won at least 12 games last season, that's a fact.

 

[big dog cowboy]

and rivera SHOULD HAVE had a great year last year.

That is a shame he got hurt. Kinda blow up all the excuses people are using to bag on him.

 

[Apollo Creed]

you maybe. i was glad someone had enough of his contract breaking arse and sat him down.

T.O. was guilty of being the best receiver in football and wanting to be paid like it. He just handled the situation incorrectly and the media desperately needed something to overhype.

Donovan gets rewarded with a huge contract for choking in 3 straight NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl. While T.O. fights back from a season ending injury to play in the Super Bowl, only to have Donovan choke again. I'll take that guy on my team any day of the week.

 

[iceberg]

We have a lot more reason to think our way then you do yours. We are basing the past history of the entire career of players like Adams and Fabini and RIvera while you are using last years only. The empirical evidence is on OUR side.

um...have i NOT said flo's ENTIRE CAREER has been that of average to above average with the ability to count on a few penalties a game? i based that off of last year?

old OL w/back injuries. i'm not basing this off rivera, last year, or even rivera's career - but back injuries on older OLmen.

fabini? i already said "fine, but nothing earth shattering". last year or career - your call.

gurode and johnson still here? wow - good. i'd hate to have an OL without a built-in excuse to fail. last year we blamed our entire collapse on flo when we never gave him credit for that in his ENTIRE CAREER (notice the lack of looking at only 1 year here)

kozier. got me here except i'm not basing it off last year alone, just off the fact so few people hear ever even heard of him till we signed him and now he's capable of repalcing larry allen.

OF WHICH people are saying he sucked the last few years so kozier *should* be an upgrade.

so no, dude. i'm NOT basing it all off last year, only comparing our moves TO last year. please understand the difference.

 

[Seven]

i never heard so much "flo-worship" at any other time during his entire tenture as a cowboy. flo was always ok to above average, but he's also a few penaties a game. he's more or less "unmotivated" and when parcells resigned him, many were nuts we paid THAT MUCH to flo.

then he goes down, our season follows, and for some reason it's a comfort to pin it on flo as if he was *anywhere* near as good as allen, prime or otherwise. fact of the matter is flo was servicable but never stellar.

until we needed a scapegoat and all of a sudden the player that never really got "props" was allworld and the single pointed reason for our fall.

i ain't buyin that crock.

the line is still patch work, allen is gone even though he was for a few years now anyway. he's replaced by a BACKUP OL from detroit, and we've brought in another 2-3 year patch job in fabini vs. even making a single attempt at bentley or hutchinson.

so, flo is now suddenly the anchor when just a few years ago he was the problem. too convenient to be true.

allen is gone and replaced by a no-name backup on a team where qb's never get time anyway.

petitti, who i hope will step it up, is still a huge ? till he does.

fabini - average.

gurode and johnson - that should scare someone, but that "someone" is probably cowboys fans.

we've *not* fixed this line AT ALL yet, we've merely changed out parts and overall dropped a notch. even if we draft a 1st round OL we now have a rookie savior on the OL?

we have *NOT* fixed the OL, drew's 2nd year usually isn't pretty, and we have the shortest patience in recorded history in TO who will go NUTS when drew bounces a few passes at his feet.

we can play make belief and what if all day long, but the simple fact of the matter is our line is no better than last year at this point and arguments could be made (valid ones) that we're a step or two worse.

but i really get amazed that whippingpostflo is now all-world and we can't live without him. he get that much better or did the line come down to him?

i think the latter myself.

 

[Apollo Creed]

Posts like this make me thankful that I'm not only the biggest pessimist alive, but thankful that Ia ctually know something about football.

The Commanders didnt "smoke" anything, they needed not one, but 2 miracles and a blown call to win.

We destroyed Philly, and NY was 11-5 last year, I'll take a squeker over a division winner anyday.

I love how you also forget that we came within a kicker of beating Denver and Seattle, a SB team and a team that made the AFC title game.

Had we had a kicker, we would have won at least 12 games last season, that's a fact.

Amen.

 

[iceberg]

T.O. was guilty of being the best receiver in football and wanting to be paid like it. He just handled the situation incorrectly and the media desperately needed something to overhype.

Donovan gets rewarded with a huge contract for choking in 3 straight NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl. While T.O. fights back from a season ending injury to play in the Super Bowl, only to have Donovan choke again. I'll take that guy on my team any day of the week.

TO signed a contract in sf and was able to whineyboy his way out of a LEGAL TRADE onto his own CHOSEN TEAM.

TO got paid good money and when he signed the contract i'm pretty sure he saw how much he'd be paid and when. if he didn't like it, HE shouldn't have signed it. HE or HIS AGENT should have put in performance clauses.

asking TO to do what TO says he will do appears to be too difficult and people are far too willing to excuse that just because there's a star on his helmet now.

i'm not. when he quits being a whiney me-baby i'll quit thinking he is, star or not.

 

[burmafrd]

yes you are. Is the HOtel a big upgrade over Tucker. YES.
Is a healthy Rivera a big upgrade over a injured Rivera- YES.
Is Kosier better then ALlen- we don't know but that should be a push since he is a LOT quicker if no where near as strong.
Johnson is putting on weight so that should help him be BETTER this year.
Fabini is a significant upgrade over pettiti-YES.
THE EVIDENCE is clear that our O line will be better. Just how much better is the question.
BUT REMEMBER THIS: Bledsoe was having a Pro Bowl season UNTILL Adams got hurt and the protection became a joke.

 

[burmafrd]

Now as regards to TO. I DID NOT WANT him. I would have been OK with keeping Key. We got him now- so that is that. I THINK we will be fine this year- next year is another matter. BUT since JJ structured the contract so that if he acts up we can drop him that is acceptable for NOW.

 

[iceberg]

yes you are. Is the HOtel a big upgrade over Tucker. YES.
Is a healthy Rivera a big upgrade over a injured Rivera- YES.
Is Kosier better then ALlen- we don't know but that should be a push since he is a LOT quicker if no where near as strong.
Johnson is putting on weight so that should help him be BETTER this year.
Fabini is a significant upgrade over pettiti-YES.
THE EVIDENCE is clear that our O line will be better. Just how much better is the question.
BUT REMEMBER THIS: Bledsoe was having a Pro Bowl season UNTILL Adams got hurt and the protection became a joke.

i would hope the starter is better than the backup. you lost me here.
*if* healthy
*should be a push*
*should be better*

your "evidence" is just like mine, our opinios. i don't see evidence when it's laced with the above phrases, i see hope.

fine and all and feel free to call it evidence, but so we're clear i do not.

evidence shows that flo has been average to above average in his career.
evidence shows old OL's w/back injuries tend to never be the same.
evidence shows that you don't replace aged HOF linemen w/sleepers from bad teams and call it an upgrade.

not gonna argue dude but this isn't evidence in as much as fan hope. great, hope. i hope it won't be that bad also but until they SHOW they can, "should" can go either way.

 

[iceberg]

Now as regards to TO. I DID NOT WANT him. I would have been OK with keeping Key. We got him now- so that is that. I THINK we will be fine this year- next year is another matter. BUT since JJ structured the contract so that if he acts up we can drop him that is acceptable for NOW.

oh i'm seeing a few posts where we agree, so it can't be too bad. : )

gonna go grill some hamburgers and clean the room. i hope i light the right things on fire...

 

[firehawk350]

Seeing how I choke on the kool-aid being passed around... and that it is so very slow at the moment...I thought I would try and look at how things MIGHT be..

let us start by looking back at last years schedule

http://www.dallascowboys.com/schedule.cfm

we beat 2 playoff teams...that is it (the NYG and the Carolina Panthers)
we got smoked by powerhouses such as Oakland and St. Louis and almost got our lunch handed to us by San Fran. (lets not use the tired of excuse we weren't playing for anything the last game of the year..cause that is just crap)...

I have heard my cowboy breathren talking about how we were smoking good before Flo went down...again that is just crap...we won a squeeker against a SD team that had no regular season tape on us playing a 3-4, they were without there probowl TE and just weren't that good last year... we got whipped by the Commanders @ HOME...almost got whipped by a very sorry SF team and we lost to a pitiful oakland team...we played a Philly team that was totally dysfuctional and Flo gets injured during the Giants game and we squeek out a win... I wouldn't call that smoking good...would you?

and you all pretty much said we were sucking after Flo went down so no sense going there...

I hear how all these 1st year players are going to be so much better... (Brady James anyone) It sometimes takes awhile folks...

plus all the questions

Can JuJo stay healthy?
Is the o-line really better?
Bledsoe's second season in Buff wasn't so good...what about in Dallas?
Will Terry Glenn finish the season..he has only done it 3 times in 11 years?
what will the new pieces do mesh together or pull apart?
How will the new coaches do?
Will the circus that follows TO be too big of a distraction?
Flo (when he was healthy) was barely adequete...coming off injury he is a ?

Divisional foes much better...If a team doesn't win this divison it is a good chance that it will not get a Wildcard....

Minn, Chi, Seat, Caro, Atl, TB, NYG, PE, Wash maybe a team out of the west with there lightweight opp. have a winning record such as the Cards... you can make a case for each of these teams winning there div. or getting a wildcard

I won't go into the what ifs...i.e what if Tnew goes down for the year


like I said, just playing Devils advocate...so don't choke on that Kool-aid

I disargee with some, agree with others. I don't think FLO of '06 will be any better then FLO of '04 or '05. At 31 years, you've peaked. In about 3 or 4 years, you can see him decline. Furthermore, his injury may have lasting effects. You might see a whole new Flo out there. Other then that, you lost a pro-bowler in Allen. Even if he is declining physically, a guy like that is a leader. Who's the leader for your line now? No one else is really a ringer. Somebody you can hang our hat on and call him a brick wall or bulldozer. Combine that with the upgraded lines in the NFCE (kearse and Cole for the Eagles, Phillips [who was coming on late last year], Griffin and Carter for the skins and Osi Umeniyura and Strahan for the Giants), I think your going to have serious problems this year.
On the other hand, I wouldn't worry about who you beat and didn't beat last year. The Skins beat Seahawks, but lost again to the Seahawks. Indy almost lost to the Titans! I mean, you have to look at how you played overall, not piece-meal.
I don't subscribe to the theory that all these players will be infinitely better the 2nd year. Journeyman players will probably be a decent amount better (Brady James) but the freaks of nature athletes will just slightly better (Ware). He will be better, but not twice as many sacks, interceptions, etc... better. He got, what 8 sacks last season? He'll probably increase that by 1 or 2.
So can JuJo stay heathly??? Probably not, but I'll play it out like he will be... last year (missing 3 games) he busted out only one game for over 100 yards (Carolina). Even then, he had 34 carries. He averages 79 yards/game and 3.9 ypc. That's a 1200 yard season, hardly an elite back.
I don't think Bledsoe's season is going to be light-years ahead of this season. But there's no way that TO doesn't improve his stats. But you lack a possession receiver now though. Still TO is better then Keyshawn.
Will TO be a distraction? Yes, without a question. So here's the answer to the big question, will TO destroy the Boys? TO has the ability to double whatever your doing. If your winning, TO is happy and will perform, bringing even more wins home. If you are losing, TO is whining and will bring the team down. So TO's behavior = your record.
just my $.02

 

[firehawk350]

I love how you also forget that we came within a kicker of beating Denver and Seattle, a SB team and a team that made the AFC title game.

Had we had a kicker, we would have won at least 12 games last season, that's a fact.

I love how simply you look at games. Oh, we missed a FG, so upgrade the position and we win! Like the other team isn't going to have a shot at it next. They'll just say, oh, well we are losing/tied now, so let's just kneel and better luck next time. Why doesn't this apply to any other position then. Plax dropped a sure TD last year against the skins, so the Giants fans could just say, let's give him sticky gloves, and we win that game!

 

[iceberg]

heh, yea. i get pretty amazed also people will figure 1 change will ONLY change it THEIR way, not just change it back to the unknown.

 

[scottsp]

We got downgraded at LG, but eventhough Fabini is not "Great", he's a HUGE upgrade. So yes, the OL is "Better", but I still don't think it's "Good."

I agree with Rack on several points. Good stuff.

If the offensive line isn't at least credible, nothing else this team tries to do offensively will matter. Injuries will happen. Count on it. The contingencies we go with will go a long, long way in determining our fate. That said, we must pray for relative good health. Everyone must.

 

[scottsp]

I love how simply you look at games. Oh, we missed a FG, so upgrade the position and we win! Like the other team isn't going to have a shot at it next. They'll just say, oh, well we are losing/tied now, so let's just kneel and better luck next time. Why doesn't this apply to any other position then. Plax dropped a sure TD last year against the skins, so the Giants fans could just say, let's give him sticky gloves, and we win that game!

Sure, it cuts both ways. From a Dallas perspective, the easy chippies missed are basically inexcusable. But yeah, everyone knows the Cowboys stole a couple, too.