Devils advocate

[burmafrd]

And in the camp and first few games will give us the answer.

 

[iceberg]

ice - I see precious few - if any - posts proclaiming the offensive line "fixed." What I do see is you speaking in ridiculous hyperbole, accusing others of assigning "all-world" status to a player, instead of addressing the actual issue. Flozell, while not all-world, is certainly a pretty good player. If anything, he struggles with penalites now and again, and that's people's major gripe. The issue is not losing an all-world player, as you claim, but who we replaced him with. If you're playing pickup basketball and you replace your 40 year old accountant in decent shape with a one-legged pirate midget, you're going to notice a different.

Torrin Tucker is a one-legged midget pirate.

Flozell is not a scapegoat, he is a fact. The difference in the offense was undeniable with and without him. Just because some didn't hold him in high regard previously, doesn't make the drop in production any less real. It just gives you a seemingly clever talking point, i.e. "I see the difference in production, but he CAN'T be that good, because people used to complain about him." Sorry, not buying that load. All players receive complaints, none are perfect.

Could Parcells have done more last year to ensure the success of the Oline? Maybe. If you can list specific players passed on that would have given us killer depth, I'd be interested in hearing them. But unless Parcells recently transmogrified into an fat jamaican lady, I doubt he could have known that he would lose his LT for the season, that his big FA RG would hurt his back running on a treadmill, or that the center play would have been so bad. This year, he's gone out and got depth at T, bringing in Fabini allows Pettiti to learn more, and Pettiti after starting a year is not a bad option at the backup spot. Kosier is more athletic than Allen, something desparately needed at the G position. Granted, we don't know much about him, but we do know he was pretty highly sought after in free agency. Getting Flozell back is a huge upgrade, providing he is healthy.

And that's all people are saying. That the line looks better now than it did at season's end. They're not claiming Flozell is some world beater, or that his presence alone will ensure a dominant blocking scheme. You, on the other hand, seem fixated on single pieces of the puzzle, not looking at it all in focus. You're content to bash Parcells moves along the Oline....criticize Bledsoe's second half/second year falloff without looking at the whole puzzle there, either....And so doing, you miss other's points. The line is better today than it was against the Rams. Is it fixed? I agree, we don't know yet. But noone except you is arguing about whether it is "fixed" or not.

my main point is - we *NEVER* relied on flo like that in the past. we usually ragged on him for his penalties, his lack-of-effort play, and so forth. now, he gets hurt and our season went into the toilet? maybe i did misjudge the intent of this statement (and please don't tell me it's never been said before - it's the cornerstone of the failure of last year - flo going down) but it does make flo "all world" to a degree *IF* his fall and his fall alone took out the line.

back up 6 years - if flo went down, would our season have been over? i don't think so. now, either flo got *that good* (and i put him to be above average overall but not "the cornerstone" of an OL) or the rest of the line got "that bad".

my fixation came out when burm was telling me that all the "emprical evidence" (his words, not mine) was on his side and the line was fixed and i was wrong. when i asked for specifics, i got "this should happen" "if this happens" and all things that are much like what i was doing - speculating. only, i admit i'm speculating the line will be worse and is still a huge ???. i'm not saying "emprical evidence" is on my side so neener neener!" now am i?

bashing parcells for our OL issues. i'd be glad to praise him - what move has he made so far on it that has worked out well? tell me, i'd love to see it and recognize it.

now yes i overemphasized my point to make a point and rack was kind enough to point that out. but my main point is:

1) flozell was never the cause for our entire offense sucking garbage before. why now? did he get that good (i don't think so) or did our line fall that far (my guess here)
2) can kozier replace allen? well, he's gonna have to, but i won't call that fixed or upgraded simply cause they put a body there.
3) can gurode and johnson finally get their arses in gear and pull their weight on the line? history says no, happy fans say THIS YEAR!!! the same as last year.

our line needs some good solid players on it we can count on, not hope on.

so far i see a lot of hope but not much i can feel comfortable counting on. and like i was told when i first made that statement "you're in the minority and that kinda thinking won't go over around here..." so please back up and let's allow "all" people to think through this, and not just the RAH RAH HAPPY TIMES AHEAD posters.

and like i've also said, if you think the line if fixed or ok, great. i disagree. i only get "irked" when someone says "empiracal evidence is on my side!!!" and follows it up with if's and shoulds.

 

[burmafrd]

ice, you cannot see the forest for the trees. We were doing OK pass blocking, not very good run blocking untill his injury. We were able to cover Pettiti. RIvera was ok, more or less, and the center was acceptable. LA was doing ok, unlike later on as his lack of stamina really came into it. Once Adams went down and Tucker was playing like Pettiti Jr, it all started to fall apart. Untill last season Adams had played something like 70 straight games. He was definitly someone you did not worry about getting injured. Rivera was a pro bowl guard. LA had seemed to be doing better. Johnson was coming off a good first season. So it all looked pretty good- untill it came apart- and the bulk of that problem was losing the Hotel. The other problems- LA's slow decline, Rivera getting injured, Johnson getting manhandled, Pettiti learning on the fly- could have been handled, more or less. Adams going down was the tipping point. He is not all world, but he is GOOD.
Now this season: Rivera is looking much better from all accounts; Kosier is young and quick; Johnson has added 12 lbs or non fast food bulk; Fabini is a decided improvement over the rookie Pettiti, and the second year Pettiti should be much better; and we should have Adams back at full strength.
So on that EMPIRICAL evidence I say we will be better on the O line. Better, not great, but it should be good enough to get the job done.

 

[iceberg]

ice, you cannot see the forest for the trees. We were doing OK pass blocking, not very good run blocking untill his injury. We were able to cover Pettiti. RIvera was ok, more or less, and the center was acceptable. LA was doing ok, unlike later on as his lack of stamina really came into it. Once Adams went down and Tucker was playing like Pettiti Jr, it all started to fall apart. Untill last season Adams had played something like 70 straight games. He was definitly someone you did not worry about getting injured. Rivera was a pro bowl guard. LA had seemed to be doing better. Johnson was coming off a good first season. So it all looked pretty good- untill it came apart- and the bulk of that problem was losing the Hotel. The other problems- LA's slow decline, Rivera getting injured, Johnson getting manhandled, Pettiti learning on the fly- could have been handled, more or less. Adams going down was the tipping point. He is not all world, but he is GOOD.
Now this season: Rivera is looking much better from all accounts; Kosier is young and quick; Johnson has added 12 lbs or non fast food bulk; Fabini is a decided improvement over the rookie Pettiti, and the second year Pettiti should be much better; and we should have Adams back at full strength.
So on that EMPIRICAL evidence I say we will be better on the O line. Better, not great, but it should be good enough to get the job done.

heh, a forrest for the trees comment. from your POV maybe i'm not, burm. maybe i'm not. however, you still rely on "it should be good enough" "from all accounts" "should be much better".

now if i did the "should be worse" "by all accounts this is less..." and so forth, i'd NOT be allowed to do that in here and get away with calling it "better".

i never said flo was bad, i've said he's above average. *IF* his going down took the line with him, then my guess is the line isn't as good as we hoped.

now you can say, however - in the same post no less:
>>>RIvera was ok, more or less,
and then:
>>>Rivera is looking much better from all accounts;

but he was doing ok. more or less. great he's looking better but aged linemen with back problems seldom get back to where they were previously. is this an incorrect statement? "seldom" can have the same effect as "should" can't it? or can only ONE side rely on vague adjectives?

and then who's accounts? the cowboys? what would you expect them to say at this point of the year?

can this line "get the job done"? maybe. if we have another injury to flo again are we doomed again? does this line rest on 1 player being healthy like last year seemed to? if so then no, this is not a better line, just different names people think SHOULD equate to a better line.

and last i checked for drew, he needs a solid line, not "should be ok".

i see hope on your side. i see wishful thinking being on your side. i see facts making it a draw to possibly a step less simply cause this line has ZERO experience together and we just don't know. i guess i give the uknown here based on what i see to the "could be a problem" side and not move it to "problem solved!"

again, if you think the line is improved - great. i don't and would simply like some leeway for my views in this like others who disagree on the line take in saying it's better or fixed.

it's still a huge ? and i think we've done an average to less than average job at trying to fix it so far this year.

 

[burmafrd]

there is no such thing as a SURE THING. Have you not figured that out?
You call my posts wishfull thinking- I call yours defeatist and pessimistic.
The camp and season will show what is what.

 

[burmafrd]

Also DO YOU REMEMBER that Bledsoe was putting up PRO BOWL numbers with the line as it was the first 4-6 games? I know that kind of puts a large HOLE in your arguement.

 

[superpunk]

my main point is - we *NEVER* relied on flo like that in the past. we usually ragged on him for his penalties, his lack-of-effort play, and so forth. now, he gets hurt and our season went into the toilet?

Classic case of you don't know what ya got, til it's gone? Flo was a solid player, and received tons of scrutiny after his big contract. But like I said, replace competent with hopelessly inept, and you have a whole new appreciation for "competence."

maybe i did misjudge the intent of this statement (and please don't tell me it's never been said before - it's the cornerstone of the failure of last year - flo going down) but it does make flo "all world" to a degree *IF* his fall and his fall alone took out the line.

No doubt, it's a definite reason, but hardly the only reason. It might get painted that way as people discuss the Oline, but picture the Oline as a boat, for a second. We began the season with a pretty large hole in the boat, as RT was never really addressed, and Pettiti was a huge unknown. But, we were able to patch that pretty well, I think. Rivera hurts his back, which spelled doom for his ability to get any sort of push. I never saw him dominate anyone - you? But, still, we plug the hole, make it work, stay afloat.

Flo's injury just broke the dam. There is a limit to what you can compensate for.Add in the regression of Johnson, and it was a disaster. Plus, Allen's continual demise...There was nothing that could be done.

back up 6 years - if flo went down, would our season have been over? i don't think so. now, either flo got *that good* (and i put him to be above average overall but not "the cornerstone" of an OL) or the rest of the line got "that bad".

bashing parcells for our OL issues. i'd be glad to praise him - what move has he made so far on it that has worked out well? tell me, i'd love to see it and recognize it.

Resigning Flozell, right? Seems like a good move now. Rivera wasn't too bad, just seemed that the back prevented him from strongarming anyone, but he was good in pass protection, or so my eyes tell me.

1) flozell was never the cause for our entire offense sucking garbage before. why now? did he get that good (i don't think so) or did our line fall that far (my guess here)

Flozell was never gone before. LT is a hugely important position. Any team who's starting LT goes down struggles immensely without him. See the Steelers and Chiefs last year, both with much better lines than us, but losing their LT hurt their offenses big time. And they didn't even have a 6th round rookie on the other side.

2) can kozier replace allen? well, he's gonna have to, but i won't call that fixed or upgraded simply cause they put a body there.

No idea. All I know is, that Kosier is more athletic, and was pretty highly sought after, if I remember the reports correctly. That counts for something, I guess. Allen was big and can still dominate 1 on 1, but he is a shell of himself. No agility or decent lateral movement left. Is Kosier is more athletic, he's an upgrade there, IMO. How much, remains to be seen.

3) can gurode and johnson finally get their arses in gear and pull their weight on the line? history says no, happy fans say THIS YEAR!!! the same as last year.

I say no, which is why I was so gung-ho about Bentley, even though we didn't stand a chance to Cleveland. But, Johnson was impressive in 04, so there's a chance. I say no, though.

our line needs some good solid players on it we can count on, not hope on.

and like i've also said, if you think the line if fixed or ok, great. i disagree. i only get "irked" when someone says "empiracal evidence is on my side!!!" and follows it up with if's and shoulds.

Cool, get irked. But if you dare say neener neener neener.....I will not hesitate to e-slap you in the forehead.

 

[Jack-Reacher]

but he was doing ok. more or less. great he's looking better but aged linemen with back problems seldom get back to where they were previously. is this an incorrect statement? "seldom" can have the same effect as "should" can't it? or can only ONE side rely on vague adjectives?

Ice, I see your point but explain to me a decision in life that you make that isn't based on should or could? Nothing is guaranteed and to an extent everything we do or say is going to reflect what could be.

I agree that Parcells has not made improvements on this offensive line like I felt he would when he first came here. However, this team was in a lot trouble. Look at the roster as a whole and how much churning has been done to date. I think it is obvious that defense has been a priority which shouldn't surprise anyone who is familiar with Parcells history. I think we can agree that overall our defense has improved and that the FA and draft picks on that side of the ball have been pretty darn good.

This off season it is apparent to me that the Offense is being addressed. With the addition of Kosier and Fabini we have certainly improved if for no other reason in depth. Who would you have rather they went after? Hutchinson? Bentley? Are they really worth the contracts they received? At some point you have to gamble. You look at the players available and make an educated guess as to who you think will be the best fit. This is where faith in the coaching staff plays into it. If you don't like Parcells then nothing you have seen is going to blow up your skirt, but I don’t think it makes you a blind homer to put some trust into the front office.

I do agree that O-line is our biggest concern right now. I also concede that we have seen nothing that suggests it is improved other than the "this guy *should* be better etc etc. Had we signed Hutchinson and Bentley then the comment can be made, they are both better than who we had, but again that it no guarantee that they would be. With the Fabini and Kosier signing I see movement with the line. It may not be all-world players they have brought in but it is something. The fact that they are addressing it gives me some comfort. Nothing is guaranteed, but it beats doing nothing and using who we have on the roster now. The case can be made that the players who were brought in have more potential than who we had. If nothing else that shows improvement, not fixed, but at least heading in the right direction.

 

[Jarv]

there is no such thing as a SURE THING. Have you not figured that out?
You call my posts wishfull thinking- I call yours defeatist and pessimistic.
The camp and season will show what is what.

Good post.

Now take that same attitude with Henson.

 

[burmafrd]

Henson is not a gamble now that we have him. We just need to let him play this season in Europe and take it from there. If he improves and gets better as the season progresses then its a good sign and maybe we got something. If he does not show more progress then BYE BYE.

 

[Jack-Reacher]

Classic case of you don't know what ya got, til it's gone? Flo was a solid player, and received tons of scrutiny after his big contract. But like I said, replace competent with hopelessly inept, and you have a whole new appreciation for "competence."

Nice!! hopelessly inept.....LOL

 

[iceberg]

Cool, get irked. But if you dare say neener neener neener.....I will not hesitate to e-slap you in the forehead.

heh, got me. however i was referring to burmford saying "empiracal evidence is on my side!" as him saying neener neener to me.

overall i think you and i agree on the line, or at least some of the theories.

kozier was a sleeper and i doubt many in here knew of him till we signed him. not to say he's NOT gonna be a good one, but he is a ?

we have way too many ?'s this time around to say "line improved" to me yet i see a lot of people saying it's fixed, it's improved, it *should* be better...

rivera and resigning flo? ok, i'll give you flo. but when we did resign flo, the general "fan feeling" was we overpaid and he wasn't worth it. however the best description is your saying "the dam broke then..." make more sense than "because of flo going down..." maybe semantics but i can see that as a trigger to more bad things more than i can see that as the sole bad thing causing issues that killed us. i see a lot of fickle fans who bashed him and now make him our top OL'man simply due to our need, not his performance.

in all i do feel our line has a lot more question marks than known positives. i think we do have a lesser line today than last year. many have said i'm more or less ********, but i then asked 4 other football fanatics who just don't post online their thoughts and all 4 also feel the line has regressed. only saying that so people know i'm not the *only* one to see issues here, but maybe to speak out about 'em.

 

[iceberg]

Henson is not a gamble now that we have him. We just need to let him play this season in Europe and take it from there. If he improves and gets better as the season progresses then its a good sign and maybe we got something. If he does not show more progress then BYE BYE.

you'll wait for henson to "show progress" before you'll say he has, but you'll pronounce the line "better" out of hope and 'no showing' of self-same progress?

i'll stick with my "i think we're worse off till they SHOW progress" stance.

 

[ravidubey]

If Jerry wants to sell jerseys... even if he has to share it... BOBBY CARPENTER jerseys will out sell URLACHER jerseys!!!


this guy is a COWBOY LEGEND already!!!

I like players who fathers played in the league but if the BOYS dont draft him some of u guys will be on suicide watch!!

Carpenter-- lays the lumber.

 

[burmafrd]

Henson as far as keeping him around I say yes if he continues to show progress. I am certainly not convinced he is anywhere near ready to compete for the starting job. BUT if he keeps getting better and keeps showing progress maybe ....
I am just kind of skeptical of former baseball players.

 

[iceberg]

Henson as far as keeping him around I say yes if he continues to show progress. I am certainly not convinced he is anywhere near ready to compete for the starting job. BUT if he keeps getting better and keeps showing progress maybe ....
I am just kind of skeptical of former baseball players.

oh, that i can understand. then again, i'm skeptical of old OLmen w/back problems ever being the same. : )

 

[ndanger]

well that's not a skewed vision of priorities in the world, now is it?

Not from my vantage point!

 

[iceberg]

Not from my vantage point!

and there-in lies most of peoples differences. >g<

 

[superpunk]

kozier was a sleeper and i doubt many in here knew of him till we signed him. not to say he's NOT gonna be a good one, but he is a ?

I don't know **** about him. Your guess is as good as mine, he deserves the question mark. But how good do you really have to be to be an upgrade over 2005 LA?

rivera and resigning flo? ok, i'll give you flo. but when we did resign flo, the general "fan feeling" was we overpaid and he wasn't worth it. however the best description is your saying "the dam broke then..." make more sense than "because of flo going down..." maybe semantics but i can see that as a trigger to more bad things more than i can see that as the sole bad thing causing issues that killed us. i see a lot of fickle fans who bashed him and now make him our top OL'man simply due to our need, not his performance.

in all i do feel our line has a lot more question marks than known positives. i think we do have a lesser line today than last year. many have said i'm more or less ********, but i then asked 4 other football fanatics who just don't post online their thoughts and all 4 also feel the line has regressed. only saying that so people know i'm not the *only* one to see issues here, but maybe to speak out about 'em.

I've always liked FLo, Hotel is a cool nickname. I don't think you can judge Rivera totally off last year. One thing I am REALLY concerned about? The fact that we stomped the crap out of Carolina's run defense in a game Rivera did not play in. That worries me. Also worrying to me? I've been preaching continuity all offseason, and this year - AGAIN - we replace 40% of our offensive line. I don't like that. But I do think the players themselves are upgrades, almost across the board, save center. That is somewhat comforing, but I would have liked to only replace 1, and that was the Center position, the one we didn't address. That is the only "hope" I have. The hope that Johnson will return to 2004 form. I'm confident in Flo, I'm confident in Rivera, I'm confident that Fabini and Kosier are upgrades. Center is a thorn in my side, though.