Devils advocate
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Clove
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Flozell had a bad year last year, and in that bad year, he only gave up 7and a half sacks - Even in his rookie year, Flozell managed to give up only 1.5 sacks starting in 9 games.
Flozell is not the best LT out there, but he's darn good. Fabini played his best ball when he was with Parcells. Before Parcells left, Fabini was giving up around 3 to 4 sacks a year on average while playing RT, until Parcells left and they moved him to LT.
Kosier is a tweener IMO. He's nowhere near as good as LA, but eventually you had to make a move with LA because his production is supposed to be all star, and it was just average. (even and average LA is pretty good).
But before some of us jump off the next bridge you come too, just let the draft go thru, and see how guys emerge as youngsters in TC, before we start planning for a 1-16 season.
Flozell is not the best LT out there, but he's darn good. Fabini played his best ball when he was with Parcells. Before Parcells left, Fabini was giving up around 3 to 4 sacks a year on average while playing RT, until Parcells left and they moved him to LT.
Kosier is a tweener IMO. He's nowhere near as good as LA, but eventually you had to make a move with LA because his production is supposed to be all star, and it was just average. (even and average LA is pretty good).
But before some of us jump off the next bridge you come too, just let the draft go thru, and see how guys emerge as youngsters in TC, before we start planning for a 1-16 season.
Jack-Reacher
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Isn’t it funny how these threads usually end up with a pro/con debate feel to them? It never ceases to amaze me how a person can justify their beliefs by focusing on either all of the negative or all of the positive of any one particular player.
We have the Bledsoe is a living god guy, who is constantly battling with the Bledsoe couldn’t complete a pass in a roomful of drunk hookers crowd.
You get the TO debaters, those who think he not only invented sliced bread, but discovered how to make flour out of wheat as well. They of course battle with the TO is Satan in a jersey crowd who will single-handedly make the entire franchise collapse due to an implosion in the locker room.
Now we have the O-line skeptics who are certain that we would be better off recruiting from the pee-wee league than to start who we are starting now. (of course I am paraphrasing here, can’t post a link quoting those exact words.) In light of this latest debate I thought I would throw a few thoughts out there for you guys to dissimilate and dissect. Here goes:
Props to the guy who said this line needs to gel, too lazy to look up who it was, but that is exactly what will determine how effective this line is. Their ability to play as a unit!! An average player can play above his potential if he in sync with the players next to him. We won’t know how this line is until they get some game time. I for one am optimistic about the chances of this unit, but that could be the homer in me, of course I am an optimistic fool most days anyway.
I have really got to learn to quit typing so much. That is why I don’t post that often, I like to save it up so I can write these novels and feel pompous. LOL
OK blast away, I have spoken my piece.
Jon
We have the Bledsoe is a living god guy, who is constantly battling with the Bledsoe couldn’t complete a pass in a roomful of drunk hookers crowd.
You get the TO debaters, those who think he not only invented sliced bread, but discovered how to make flour out of wheat as well. They of course battle with the TO is Satan in a jersey crowd who will single-handedly make the entire franchise collapse due to an implosion in the locker room.
Now we have the O-line skeptics who are certain that we would be better off recruiting from the pee-wee league than to start who we are starting now. (of course I am paraphrasing here, can’t post a link quoting those exact words.) In light of this latest debate I thought I would throw a few thoughts out there for you guys to dissimilate and dissect. Here goes:
- Pettiti. Cannot believe the number of people who are ready to give on this kid. A late round draft pick that lost a ton of weight and was thrown to the wolves early. Let’s give him a few years to develop before we say he isn’t worth a darn. Lineman take time to develop. How was Hutchinson his rookie year? Pick any lineman and ask the same question. He showed a ton of guts by taking the field every week and facing competition each week that was a crap load better than anything he faced in college. Let him grow into the role. Fabini is insurance until this kid develops. The coaches see something in him perhaps we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt.
- Rivera. Coming off an injury. This is a class guy that is motivated by pride. Remember last year when we got him from GB and the comments made the GB fans? He is much better player than he played last year and while it is true, that he may never get back to original form he is a leader on that line and can only help the younger players.
- Adams. To dismiss his injury and subsequent departure last year as the main reason our line sucked is ludicrous. He has the ability to be a premier LT in this league and was having a solid year before he went down. Our line is better with him at the anchor. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
- Johnson/Gurode. Easily the biggest concern of the Oline going into the draft. The coaching staff is not ready to give up on Johnson yet and Gurode is a versatile player who can play more than one position. If Johnson bulked up he has the tools to be stellar, lets give him a year before we consider him a bust.
- Kozier. It has been said by a number of people that it takes offensive lineman 3 or 4 years to come into their own. Kozier is in year 4 isn’t he? He could be very good and again the coaching/scouting staff saw something in him that warranted the contract he got. I hated to see Allen go. I loved the guy his entire career but he obtained god like status when he jerked Cortez around last year. Having said that, he wasn’t worth the money he was scheduled to receive, I wanted to see him retire a cowboy but it wasn’t in the cards. Is Kozier a legitimate candidate to replace Allen? Of course not, not yet. He should be coming into his prime right about now and we will find out pretty soon where he is at.
Props to the guy who said this line needs to gel, too lazy to look up who it was, but that is exactly what will determine how effective this line is. Their ability to play as a unit!! An average player can play above his potential if he in sync with the players next to him. We won’t know how this line is until they get some game time. I for one am optimistic about the chances of this unit, but that could be the homer in me, of course I am an optimistic fool most days anyway.
I have really got to learn to quit typing so much. That is why I don’t post that often, I like to save it up so I can write these novels and feel pompous. LOL
OK blast away, I have spoken my piece.
Jon
Rumor
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iceberg said:
He is giving no more or less than you are...This whole thread is irrelavent...We can ***** and moan for months....but the fact jack is that the cowboys organization knows a ****load more than we do...If next year is good its good if its not its not...I wont try to be skeptical or analyze any longer because we dont know **** about next year.....The organization has a better idea where the Cowboys sit than any of us...Oh, and that little piece of "evidence" is not a fan hoping...JJ owns a team and BP coaches it because they know *** there doing...
iceberg
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Rumor said:
i'm saying our line has a LOT of question marks on it and he's saying it's better because *IF THIS* happens, or *THIS SHOULD* happen...
when it does THEN i'll see we have a better line. till then, i see a lot of changes but i don't think it equates to automatically having a better line. given all the changes it could be worse off than last year.
i'm saying flo was *never* our anchor before and now he's the scapegoat for last years collapse.
we're saying very different things and from different points of view obviously. i think our line will be worse, i've stated why, i hope we're not done making changes, and that's how i feel. bum seems to feel we'll be a better line and *claims* all the evidence is on his side so i must be wrong.
if he's going to take a hardline stance, THEN i need more than *if* and *should* to convince me.
firehawk350
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Rumor said:
Commanders' fans say the same thing. And so do Giants fans. And Eagles fans. And Indy fans. Okay, I'll stop. But the point being is that everyone in the business knows what their doing, but it's not whether you know what your doing, it's whether they know more then the next guy. It's competition, everyone is doing the same thing. So the argument that BP knows what he's doing is irrelevant because we assume that at this level. I believe this thread is revelant. He's questioning the moves and you are berating him for his independent thought. That makes your post on a board that appreciates other's opinions irrevelant.
iceberg
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firehawk350 said:
i think every team goes into the pre-season with hope and the "we're better!" feeling. well, unless you're SF. : ) i also tire of the "but bp knows what he is doing!" mantra. if he really did he'd have made at least ONE call on the OL that was right so far in what we've seen. his FA pick ups have been abysmal and his draft picks are not much better off.
*this* is the man who knows what he's doing? he gets a qb who's book says "needs great protection!" and doesn't give it to him BUT he knows what he's doing.
again, i could well be wrong and he may have finally fixed the line. but i'll wait and see before i get fan-colored glasses and declare the OL fixed cause it sounds clever.
thanks man.
superpunk
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iceberg said:
ice - I see precious few - if any - posts proclaiming the offensive line "fixed." What I do see is you speaking in ridiculous hyperbole, accusing others of assigning "all-world" status to a player, instead of addressing the actual issue. Flozell, while not all-world, is certainly a pretty good player. If anything, he struggles with penalites now and again, and that's people's major gripe. The issue is not losing an all-world player, as you claim, but who we replaced him with. If you're playing pickup basketball and you replace your 40 year old accountant in decent shape with a one-legged pirate midget, you're going to notice a different.
Torrin Tucker is a one-legged midget pirate.
Flozell is not a scapegoat, he is a fact. The difference in the offense was undeniable with and without him. Just because some didn't hold him in high regard previously, doesn't make the drop in production any less real. It just gives you a seemingly clever talking point, i.e. "I see the difference in production, but he CAN'T be that good, because people used to complain about him." Sorry, not buying that load. All players receive complaints, none are perfect.
Could Parcells have done more last year to ensure the success of the Oline? Maybe. If you can list specific players passed on that would have given us killer depth, I'd be interested in hearing them. But unless Parcells recently transmogrified into an fat jamaican lady, I doubt he could have known that he would lose his LT for the season, that his big FA RG would hurt his back running on a treadmill, or that the center play would have been so bad. This year, he's gone out and got depth at T, bringing in Fabini allows Pettiti to learn more, and Pettiti after starting a year is not a bad option at the backup spot. Kosier is more athletic than Allen, something desparately needed at the G position. Granted, we don't know much about him, but we do know he was pretty highly sought after in free agency. Getting Flozell back is a huge upgrade, providing he is healthy.
And that's all people are saying. That the line looks better now than it did at season's end. They're not claiming Flozell is some world beater, or that his presence alone will ensure a dominant blocking scheme. You, on the other hand, seem fixated on single pieces of the puzzle, not looking at it all in focus. You're content to bash Parcells moves along the Oline....criticize Bledsoe's second half/second year falloff without looking at the whole puzzle there, either....And so doing, you miss other's points. The line is better today than it was against the Rams. Is it fixed? I agree, we don't know yet. But noone except you is arguing about whether it is "fixed" or not.
