Devils advocate

[burmafrd]

In the NFL of today, the team with the least injuries usually wins it all. No one has the depth of old days. LIke it used to be in the 70's in college football where Nebraska, ND, Oklahoma, etc had guys 2 and 3 deep who were very good. Now you are lucky if your backup is 75% as good as your starter.
I think we were a little snakebit by injury last year. Adams had started something like 60-70 straight games- was very reliable and good. So who would have guessed that HE was the one that went down. And someone made the comment about not expecting second year players to really get better- WRONG. MOST second year players get a significant amount BETTER. You do have the occasional sophomore slump- but that is the exception and not the rule. Our young D players should be a lot better- Ware particularly since he WAS learning a new position and new duties. As regards the O line I see us better in 3 of 5 positions then we were last season. One should be a push and probably a little better, and the last should be as good and maybe a little better as well. ANYWAY you look at it that means better O line play.

 

[iceberg]

MOST second year players get a significant amount BETTER. You do have the occasional sophomore slump- but that is the exception and not the rule.

any stats on this or is this another *should* you call fact?

 

[firehawk350]

The Commanders didnt "smoke" anything, they needed not one, but 2 miracles and a blown call to win.

First off, he was referring to the second game, where you were smoked. Second, it wasn't a miracle that caused Washington to win that first game. You got beat fair and square, why is that hard to believe? If those are two miracles (and therefore relatively invalid), can I not call Crayton's catch from Testaverde a miracle as well? So if you invalidate (or try) the win over Washington should also not really count. But it does, and therefore the Sept 19th win also counts.
And what blown call are you referring to? Because I remember a couple of calls going dallas' way too. Remember Sean Taylor's hit on keyshawn (it may have been somebody else)? That was a fumble by most accounts, as he had both feet planted and was starting to run upfield. If it was a fumble Harris had first hack at the ball with no one between him and the endzone. So I don't know what call you are referring to, but some calls go your way too.

 

[vicjagger]

Can't resist this one:

Not if TO listens to Parcells.

 

[burmafrd]

no iceberg- YOU SHOW ME stats that show 2nd year players do not improve significantly over rookies. GO AHEAD.

 

[iceberg]

no iceberg- YOU SHOW ME stats that show 2nd year players do not improve significantly over rookies. GO AHEAD.

hey - i'm not the one saying they will or won't, i just want more than "if" and "should be" and "should improve" from you as your "evidence". you tossed it out, back it up.

 

[firehawk350]

Sure, it cuts both ways. From a Dallas perspective, the easy chippies missed are basically inexcusable. But yeah, everyone knows the Cowboys stole a couple, too.

Exactly. You could have lost the chief's game if they didn't shank that 40-yarder. The chiefs fans could say the same thing then. How many could the Eagles have won if David Akers would have been 100% through the entire season?

 

[burmafrd]

ALL but one of our games we were in untill the last few minutes. We owned the Eagles and the Cards. We lost 3 games that we could very easily have won due to getting burned late; pass and run. Seattle and first Wash game missed kicks were critical. So to me the luck part was very even. The bad kicking really cost us at least 2 games. The Hotel going down was the biggest factor for the season.Had he stayed playing we could have helped out Pettiti and our sack total would probably drop almost in half; Bledsoe would have been in the Pro Bowl and we would have been in the playoffs even with our lousy kicker. But add both Adams going down and the lousy kicker and that really hurt us for the whole season.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

yes you are. Is the HOtel a big upgrade over Tucker. YES.
Is a healthy Rivera a big upgrade over a injured Rivera- YES.
Is Kosier better then ALlen- we don't know but that should be a push since he is a LOT quicker if no where near as strong.
Johnson is putting on weight so that should help him be BETTER this year.
Fabini is a significant upgrade over pettiti-YES.
THE EVIDENCE is clear that our O line will be better. Just how much better is the question.
BUT REMEMBER THIS: Bledsoe was having a Pro Bowl season UNTILL Adams got hurt and the protection became a joke.

I'm as optimistic as you are re the oline's upgrade.

Rob was given a Herculean task last year - just the weight he lost in offseason and preseason had to have sapped his stamina considerably. Then the ferocious learning curve kicked in, with his having to learn to deal with the Okeafores in preseason right down to the rejuvenated Strahans in regular season action. His head had to be spinning even more than his body...I think the strength and conditioning program will work wonders in him as will the time needed just to digest what he went thru last season. While realizing many don't think he has the agility to start consistently in the NFL, I believe he has sufficient moxie/smarts, and will increase technique and power enough to be a reliable RT.

Flo has all the tools, and according to Bill last season, his injury forced him to look long and hard at what his football career means to him. Flo reputedly always needed a kick in the pants to achieve his best..here's hoping those kicks will now be internally motivated..something tells he's grown up via his injury.

Kozier seems to be a depth signing. I don't know enough about him to say, but he's reportedly 'versatile" .

Fabini has never been Orlando Pace, but he is exactly the ticket for this team right now. The question mark on him is not whether he is a good run blocker and a more than adequate pass protector..but what his back injury has diminished. That injury is prolly why he settled for the contract he did, but his escape from New York was still primarily cap motivated, not performance.

Rivera - that herniated disc on the treadmill last spring was a killer, for his own performance and the line as well. One would hope a year later whatever nerve and muscle damage has been repaired?

Al has reportedly bulked up. Dre, well, hope springs eternal.
Like Tucker, it just eats at ya he hasn't put it all together. But I suspect the oline coaching hasn't been superlative, too, either from Warhop or Sparano.

The question I have is the identity of the line now LA is gone. I really don't expect to see a west coast style line or instant perfect center-led pulling, or mega sweeps just because Larry's bulk is lost. That idea LA's presence was somehow preventing Bill from getting the line style he signaled he wanted with the Al Johnson's pick struck me as pretty bogus. LA may have lost his tackle-level agility, but he had guard feet at the very least. But still, the man got worn down, as any athlete his age and size would.

It's all speculative right now, they are paper upgrades only, and all dependent on health..but we're still better off than last offseason when the notion of cutting such non-entities as Vollers and Walters was actually scary.

Still sucks Lehr got cut, tho.

 

[iceberg]

ALL but one of our games we were in untill the last few minutes. We owned the Eagles and the Cards. We lost 3 games that we could very easily have won due to getting burned late; pass and run. Seattle and first Wash game missed kicks were critical. So to me the luck part was very even. The bad kicking really cost us at least 2 games. The Hotel going down was the biggest factor for the season.Had he stayed playing we could have helped out Pettiti and our sack total would probably drop almost in half; Bledsoe would have been in the Pro Bowl and we would have been in the playoffs even with our lousy kicker. But add both Adams going down and the lousy kicker and that really hurt us for the whole season.

stats on that "almost all 2nd year players" improve line?

 

[burmafrd]

You show otherwise.

 

[iceberg]

You show otherwise.

then i can consider this normal for you - spout out unfounded "evidence" that supports your view w/o any responsiblity at all for what YOU say?

again, you said it. you prove it.

 

[parchy]

we beat 2 playoff teams...that is it (the NYG and the Carolina Panthers)we got smoked by powerhouses such as Oakland and St. Louis

We lost to Oakland on the final play of the game (basically), and we lost to St. Louis because the team had nothing to play for and gave up. Hardly getting smoked.

 

[cml750]

.we played a Philly team that was totally dysfuctional

Very true! So what do we do, we go and sign the person who made then disfuntional!

 

[Slyster]

The only one I am going to answer is about Bledsoe and his second season in Buffalo.

Going into 2003 the Bills got rid of 150+ catches in Peerless Price , Jay Remiersma and Larry Centers. Not to mention that is also the year that Eric Moulds tore his groin making Josh " I love droping TD passes " Reed the number 1 reciever.

Couple that with an offensive line that couldnt block anyone...A freaking turtle could speed rush by Mike Williams.

 

[Rack]

i never heard so much "flo-worship" at any other time during his entire tenture as a cowboy. flo was always ok to above average, but he's also a few penaties a game.

A few penalties a game? No need to exhaggerate to try and make your point.

then he goes down, our season follows, and for some reason it's a comfort to pin it on flo as if he was *anywhere* near as good as allen, prime or otherwise. fact of the matter is flo was servicable but never stellar.

Load of crap. I guess you didn't notice the domino effect losing Flo had on our offense.

And who the hell compared FLo to Allen in his prime?

Again, no need to exhaggerate to try and make your point.

And, again,

until we needed a scapegoat and all of a sudden the player that never really got "props" was allworld and the single pointed reason for our fall.

Who said FLo was "All world"?

And yet again...

i ain't buyin that crock.

The only "crock" I've read in this thread so far is anything and everything you've posted.

the line is still patch work, allen is gone even though he was for a few years now anyway. he's replaced by a BACKUP OL from detroit

Kosier stared like 12 games for Detroit last year.

Yet again all your doing is exhaggerating to try and make your point.

It's getting old, fast.

One more...

and we've brought in another 2-3 year patch job in fabini vs. even making a single attempt at bentley or hutchinson.

I wanted Bentley too, but he got paid a CRAP LOAD of money. He's better then Al Johnson, but he isn't THAT much better then Al Johnson.


And is there a problem with Fabini? A patch job is EXACTLY what we needed at RT, to give Petitti time to develop.

I was harder on Petitti then most people here, but even I'm not ready to give up on a young player so fast.

so, flo is now suddenly the anchor when just a few years ago he was the problem. too convenient to be true.

Flo has never been "the problem". Please, enough with the exhaggerating.


Quit thinking so simplistically. The world isn't black and white. He hasn't been AS GOOD as we expected, but he has still been GOOD.

Notice I didn't say "All World".

we've *not* fixed this line AT ALL yet

No one said it was "Fixed". The question was "Will the OL be improved".

Yes, it is improved. See the difference or do you need me to make even more simple for you to understand?

we've merely changed out parts and overall dropped a notch. even if we draft a 1st round OL we now have a rookie savior on the OL?

We haven't dropped a notch.

we can play make belief and what if all day long, but the simple fact of the matter is our line is no better than last year at this point and arguments could be made (valid ones) that we're a step or two worse.

No, there isn't possibly any "Valid" argument that anyone could make that our OL is worse.

Simple as this...

Flo > Tucker

Fabini > Petitti

Kosier < Allen


We've downgraded at ONE spot, and upgraded at two others. And the difference between the upgrades outweighs the downgrade.

but i really get amazed that whippingpostflo is now all-world and we can't live without him. he get that much better or did the line come down to him?

I'm still wondering where all this "All World" crap came from.

i think the latter myself.

I don't think you actually "Thought" much about it. I'm starting to wonder if you are capable.

NO! REALLY???? i'd better change my mind then so i can agree and yell SUPERBOWL BABY! w/all those who just know!!!

i know it's not "fun" or "sexy" to see glaring holes people will wanna say are in fact filled, but the fact is flo was *never* our savior on the line and now suddenly his loss alone brought the entire line down.

is it NOT a fact we've bagged on flo for most of his career for his sometimes better than average play?

is it NOT a fact kozier was depth for detroit who is NOT known for their OL?

is it NOT a fact we rail on gurode and johnson all the time and hoped they'd be replaced?

larry allen gone - even diminished and time for him to go, who's his replacement? kozier? please.

i'm well aware i could be in the minority for my opinion, but then we're talking about a group of fans who last year hated TO with the white hot passion of a thousand dying suns and actually cheered the eagles for sitting his pompous arse down.

now the eagles are the cheapskate bad guys and these self-same *fans* (for the most part) are rushing to defend TO and his every move to date.

fans are fickle so it won't surprise me if they fail to see the line isn't improved by simply shuffling some average players around.

Translation: blah blah blah THE SKY IS FALLING blah blah blah

and rivera SHOULD HAVE had a great year last year.

Never mind the back injury, or the hamstring injury, or what ever that other injury was. He got paid so he SHOULD have been great!

fine people - disagree

Ok so you disagree and you're ok with that. So theoretically when I continue to read through this thread I should see no more posts by you, right?


Yeah, like that's gonna happen. You've got to let us all know that...

THE SKY IS FALLING!​

Posts like this make me thankful that I'm not only the biggest pessimist alive, but thankful that Ia ctually know something about football.

You mean stuff like Randall Cunningham was a better QB then Troy Aikman?

Or what about those 30 yard slants?


IMO, you're one of the LEAST knowledeable football fans on this board. By a large margin.

um...have i NOT said flo's ENTIRE CAREER has been that of average to above average with the ability to count on a few penalties a game? i based that off of last year?

Still wondering where all this "few penalties a game" crap comes from.


A "Few" does mean more then two, correct?

So your saying, more then once in this thread, that Flo AVERAGES at least 3 penalties a game?

More exhaggeration.


And here's another for you.

gonna go grill some hamburgers and clean the room.

I certainly hope you cook and clean better then you debate.

any stats on this or is this another *should* you call fact?

Funny... the guy accusing Flo of committing at least 3 penalties a game is asking for stats.


:laugh2:

hey - i'm not the one saying they will or won't, i just want more than "if" and "should be" and "should improve" from you as your "evidence". you tossed it out, back it up.

You said Flo is good for a few penalties a game... why don't you back THAT up?

stats on that "almost all 2nd year players" improve line?

Stats on Flo's penalties per game?

then i can consider this normal for you - spout out unfounded "evidence" that supports your view w/o any responsiblity at all for what YOU say?

again, you said it. you prove it

Do me a favor, repeat the exact words quoted above, but do it while looking in the mirror.

The only one I am going to answer is about Bledsoe and his second season in Buffalo.

Going into 2003 the Bills got rid of 150+ catches in Peerless Price , Jay Remiersma and Larry Centers. Not to mention that is also the year that Eric Moulds tore his groin making Josh " I love droping TD passes " Reed the number 1 reciever.

Couple that with an offensive line that couldnt block anyone...A freaking turtle could speed rush by Mike Williams.

I demand you leave facts out of this thread!

I mean, Iceberg has done it, so you should do it too.

 

[ndanger]

TO signed a contract in sf and was able to whineyboy his way out of a LEGAL TRADE onto his own CHOSEN TEAM.

TO got paid good money and when he signed the contract i'm pretty sure he saw how much he'd be paid and when. if he didn't like it, HE shouldn't have signed it. HE or HIS AGENT should have put in performance clauses.

asking TO to do what TO says he will do appears to be too difficult and people are far too willing to excuse that just because there's a star on his helmet now.

i'm not. when he quits being a whiney me-baby i'll quit thinking he is, star or not.

Dude have you never asked for a raise in your life,ever?I can assure you my management skills are worth a minimum of 50 grand a year but if I thought my performance was more valuable I WOULD be the first to say yo diggs we gotta negotiate.He is no different.Football is whole different animal than your world and that will always be a fact.If you don't like TO's whiney but then root for for some other whiney reciever cause there is at least one on every team in the nfl with the exception of only maybe a few.They just don't get the pub like to does.Just my opine and I'm not bloviating.

 

[iceberg]

rack, while you rail on me for my "exagurations to prove a point" please show me where *I* said the sky was falling.

i'll wait.

ndanger, not when i'm in the middle of doing what i said i'd do. did you "defend" TO last year when he was doing it or only after he became a cowboy?

 

[ndanger]

rack, while you rail on me for my "exagurations to prove a point" please show me where *I* said the sky was falling.

i'll wait.

ndanger, not when i'm in the middle of doing what i said i'd do. did you "defend" TO last year when he was doing it or only after he became a cowboy?

I could care less about any player who does not have a star on his helmet,period.He has a star on his helmet now and I will only wish him much sucsess.

 

[iceberg]

I could care less about any player who does not have a star on his helmet,period.He has a star on his helmet now and I will only wish him much sucsess.

well that's not a skewed vision of priorities in the world, now is it?