Do we really need another defensive end?

[JoeyBoy718]

As it currently stands, we have a lot of young potential at DE. We could either have one of the most surprising edge rushes or the worst edge rush in the league. There's really no way of telling when you're relying on nothing but potential.

Let's look at the roster. We have 4 edge rushers (if you want to count Irving as a DE) who are purely potential and haven't shown anything in the NFL: Gregory, Russell, Mayowa, Irving. These four guys have an average age of 23, and a combined 2.5 sacks in a combined 6 seasons... It doesn't get more unproven than that.

Then we have Lawrence. 24 years old, going into his third season, had 8 sacks last year after getting 0 in his rookie year (regular season). You could view Lawrence in one of two ways: 1) his late-season surge last year solidifies him as a proven pass rusher in the NFL, or 2) he has to do it for at least another year before we can feel comfortable relying on him. If you're in Camp 2, that gives us 5 unproven DEs to go along with 0 proven ones.

Then there's Jack Crawford. He's our oldest and most experienced DE at 27 years old with 4 NFL seasons. He has 6 career sacks, 4 coming last year. Not to mention, he might be a better fit at backup 3-tech in our scheme, so he might not even be considered a DE (if you want to count Irving as one).

It's scary to think, but Jason Jones would easily be the most experienced and accomplished DE if we were to bring him in. 29 years old, 8 seasons, 28 career sacks.

DT is kind of a different story for us. Our two starters are quite experienced but not what you'd consider elite. Whereas we have the potential to have the most dynamic DE duo in the NFL if everything falls into place. We also have some experienced DTs as depth (if you consider Jack Crawford to be a DT) and could be even more experienced if we brought back Hayden. Problem is, none of them have the upside that our DEs have.

So we really need to bring more balance to our D-line. We need some proven veteran DEs and some young potential DTs. Fortunately, this draft is loaded with DT talent, and they wouldn't have the pressure of starting immediately since we already have two veteran DTs as starters. On the other hand, bringing in another rookie DE would just add more potential to an already inexperienced unit.

 

[LittleD]

Any DE in this draft would not likely perform up to the supposed standards of this board. There is probably
only 1 DE who would be a premium pass rusher in the 1st round and he has off field baggage and is
not viewed as a prospect to stop the run. Likely he would be 3rd down only for the 1st year and he may
be in the Dallas "Box" for non-draftable. We are stuck with potential for this year unless McClay finds
a gem from TC cuts.

 

[Idgit]

As it currently stands, we have a lot of young potential at DE. We could either have one of the most surprising edge rushes or the worst edge rush in the league. There's really no way of telling when you're relying on nothing but potential.

Let's look at the roster. We have 4 edge rushers (if you want to count Irving as a DE) who are purely potential and haven't shown anything in the NFL: Gregory, Russell, Mayowa, Irving. These four guys have an average age of 23, and a combined 2.5 sacks in a combined 6 seasons... It doesn't get more unproven than that.

Then we have Lawrence. 24 years old, going into his third season, had 8 sacks last year after getting 0 in his rookie year (regular season). You could view Lawrence in one of two ways: 1) his late-season surge last year solidifies him as a proven pass rusher in the NFL, or 2) he has to do it for at least another year before we can feel comfortable relying on him. If you're in Camp 2, that gives us 5 unproven DEs to go along with 0 proven ones.

Then there's Jack Crawford. He's our oldest and most experienced DE at 27 years old with 4 NFL seasons. He has 6 career sacks, 4 coming last year. Not to mention, he might be a better fit at backup 3-tech in our scheme, so he might not even be considered a DE (if you want to count Irving as one).

It's scary to think, but Jason Jones would easily be the most experienced and accomplished DE if we were to bring him in. 29 years old, 8 seasons, 28 career sacks.

DT is kind of a different story for us. Our two starters are quite experienced but not what you'd consider elite. Whereas we have the potential to have the most dynamic DE duo in the NFL if everything falls into place. We also have some experienced DTs as depth (if you consider Jack Crawford to be a DT) and could be even more experienced if we brought back Hayden. Problem is, none of them have the upside that our DEs have.

So we really need to bring more balance to our D-line. We need some proven veteran DEs and some young potential DTs. Fortunately, this draft is loaded with DT talent, and they wouldn't have the pressure of starting immediately since we already have two veteran DTs as starters. On the other hand, bringing in another rookie DE would just add more potential to an already inexperienced unit.

I think the team likes Mayowa and Irving more than most fans do. I like them for what they are, young guys with upside. But outside of Gregory, we really don't have anybody with a realistic shot to be a game changer offenses have to plan around. Marinelli likes to rotate his line heavily, anyway, and they told us after last offseason they were going to go with numbers and depth rather than looking to add a major talent there (that was before Hardy became available at low-risk). I think this is the direction they're going in. It's just hard to have faith that it's going to work.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

I think the team likes Mayowa and Irving more than most fans do. I like them for what they are, young guys with upside. But outside of Gregory, we really don't have anybody with a realistic shot to be a game changer offenses have to plan around. Marinelli likes to rotate his line heavily, anyway, and they told us after last offseason they were going to go with numbers and depth rather than looking to add a major talent there (that was before Hardy became available at low-risk). I think this is the direction they're going in. It's just hard to have faith that it's going to work.

Sure, nothing wrong with depth. We don't need a pair of JJ Watts. We need a collection of guys who can get you about 5 sacks. That's what Seattle had/has. Jason Jones is a decent rotation guy. He can get you about 5 sacks. The only DE on our roster who's ever gotten more than 5 sacks in a season is Lawrence, and he's coming off surgery and didn't come on as a pro until the second half of last season... Nothing wrong with throwing a collection of pass rushers at the QB. But you have to have guys you can count on. What have Russell and Mayowa ever done? What has Jack Crawford done to show he's any better than a guy you can pick up off the street? What has Gregory ever done besides having potential (and a weed addiction)? And is Lawrence now a proven talent because he had one good season?

 

[KJJ]

Despite having DLaw and Gregory DE is still the Cowboys #1 need only 3 teams had fewer sacks than they had last season. If the DE we signed from the Raiders was an up and comer you would think they would have kept him. The Cowboys will be Mayowa's 3rd team in 4 years and he's only had 2 career sacks it's a stretch to say he's going to improve our pass rush. Resigning Crawford isn't going to improve it he's had 8 career sacks in his 3 seasons. The jury is still out on DLaw who has yet to produce in the first half of the season in each of his 2 seasons. Gregory is a pothead who did nothing his rookie season after suffering an injury that caused him to miss several games and his 4 game suspension to start the 2016 season will further stunt his development. With his pot history he can't be counted on I doubt we've seen the last of his suspensions.

We need a formidable pass rusher that has to be accounted for to help free up others to the QB. Only one team had fewer INT's last season than the Cowboys and the lack of a pass rush is part of the reason. The lack of a pass rush got us knocked out of the playoffs in 2014. The dilemma the Cowboys have is Bosa tested positive for pot at the start of the 2015 college season and was suspended. He looks and sounds like a pothead almost a bulked up version of Sean Penn in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. With Gregory's pot issues we'll have to see if that doesn't scare the team off from drafting Bosa.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Stay away from Bosa. His sack numbers fell his last year at college. And wasn't he injured???

He could well be this year's Shante Carver.

Meanwhile in Round 1, there is this blue-chip player named Goff . . .

 

[lostar2009]

If we had a Hardy talent somewhere I would feel fine but we dont. Our roster depth may become special this year but who knows and to be honest I'm not into rolling dice. Bosa as a first round pick does make sense but not at four.

 

[LittleD]

Stay away from Bosa. His sack numbers fell his last year at college. And wasn't he injured???

He could well be this year's Shante Carver.

Meanwhile in Round 1, there is this blue-chip player named Goff . . .

Yep, I think Goff is the guy we're using for "Chum Bait". Lynch is who we are angling for with the tradedown and
tradeback into the 1st.

 

[LocimusPrime]

DE is listed as one of the primary needs for the team in this draft, So much in fact that Bosa is mocked to us probably more than any other player, even though he really doesn't appear to be a "sack machine".

Before you say hell yes it is a top need, lets examine the facts:

1. We already have Lawrence who we gave up not one, but TWO premium picks to draft in his second year.
2. We drafted Gregory who was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, in fact a FIRST ROUND TALENT. Yes, he is suspended for 4 games, but if I remember correctly, so was Hardy,
3. We signed the DE from the Raiders who is supposed to be an up and comer.
4. Russell who was also drafted last year is in his second year. Will he play DE?
5. We resigned Crawford, who was a steady, if unspectacular contributor. Would he be worse at DE than the Golden Cock was at NT? Probably not.
6. Irving purportedly has position flex and may kick out to end. Would he suffice for 4 games while Gregory is suspended?
7. What if we drafted another DT and played Thornton at the 3 tech? Could Crawford serve as the strong side DE and kick Lawrence back to the other side?
I'm not saying that we are SET at DE. But really shouldn't we EXPECT our second rounders to fill the two starting end roles this year? If not they were a waste of draft capital.

My buddy just bought an S550 at one of those online dealerships that has a little lot in Addison. He spent 60K, and thought he was getting a good deal. When he first got it, it looked nice, nothing special but still decent enough to get a front row valet spot. 8 weeks later the electrical system starting acting up, so he went to the dealership and got it fixed. Now the airbag are always on and he doesn't know why. Its pretty much a lemon. I suspect flood damage.

in short, he asked me should I get another car bro? Yeah man, you need too. Doesn't matter what you spent getting the car, if it isn't right you need to get another one.
Same with DEs, if they are not producing, get one that will.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Yep, I think Goff is the guy we're using for "Chum Bait". Lynch is who we are angling for with the tradedown and
tradeback into the 1st.

Yes, quite. My guess is enamored with the name Paxton Lynch. It never ends well, mate.

 

[rpntex]

I wouldn't say the Cowboys are "set" at DE, but it's not that high on the list of priorities now. We have what appears to be a solid rotation now...no stars but the depth needed to keep them fresh. Nobody that is guaranteed to give us 12-15 sacks, but then again, if we draft Bosa, we still won't have anyone who wants s guaranteed to give us12-15 sacks.

The key to the pass rush in Marinelli's defense is the 3-tech. Collapse the pocket up the middle and take away the QB's ability to step up. Then the DEs can clean up.

 

[Jstopper]

I wouldn't say the Cowboys are "set" at DE, but it's not that high on the list of priorities now. We have what appears to be a solid rotation now...no stars but the depth needed to keep them fresh. Nobody that is guaranteed to give us 12-15 sacks, but then again, if we draft Bosa, we still won't have anyone who wants s guaranteed to give us12-15 sacks.

The key to the pass rush in Marinelli's defense is the 3-tech. Collapse the pocket up the middle and take away the QB's ability to step up. Then the DEs can clean up.

Thank you, that's exactly what im saying. we have used our 2nd round pick on DE's two season in a row, and people still wanna spend a 1st or 2nd this year, thats insane. Lawrence has shown he can play in this league, and they trying to write Gregory off before he even has a chance to develop. We have holes at too many other spots, we could get better instead of picking a DE high ONCE AGAIN.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I actually believe once the Cowboys have the draft board in place that Buckner will be higher on the board than Bosa. Buckner has position flex as a DT and a DE. He can play the RDE or LDE spot or the 3 tech or 1 tech spot. Has extremely long arms which would be a nice help to any defense knocking down passes. I believe his ceiling (growth potential) is higher than Bosa or Lawson. I think that San Diego and Baltimore and Tampa Bay probably have him higher than Bosa also. To me he fits Marinelli D type lineman better than Bosa.

He runs a shuttle in 4.47 and 3 cone at 7.51. His BJ is not even 10 feet.

Bosa runs a 4.21 shuttle and a 6.89 cone with a 10'2" BJ. Bosa actually can play all 3 positions like you talk about. When you watch him play he is excellent at getting off blocks because of that athleticism. When the pocket breaks down he is there to clean up the mess.

Buckner would be a DT for Marinelli and not play outside. He is not nearly quick and explosive enough. He has upside but not as an edge rusher. He plays like Arik Armstead with those long arms. Good player but not in Bosa's league at DE.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Thank you, that's exactly what im saying. we have used our 2nd round pick on DE's two season in a row, and people still wanna spend a 1st or 2nd this year, thats insane. Lawrence has shown he can play in this league, and they trying to write Gregory off before he even has a chance to develop. We have holes at too many other spots, we could get better instead of picking a DE high ONCE AGAIN.

That you just gloss over the suspension on Gregory and further potential risk is telling.

I would also mention that we spent 3 top draft picks on oline and that turned out well. You can never have enough pass rushers. If it holds true for corners it's doubly true for dline.

 

[Verdict]

It is interesting how people here view sacks.It seems as though everyone wants a Demarcus Ware at end who can get you 10 plus sacks per year, every year. While that is definitely the type of player you want to have on your team, there are two problems with that. There aren't many of them, and they cost a lot if you acquire them in free agency.

The odd part of all of this is that many people seem to think the ONLY way to get sacks is off of the edge by an edge rusher. That's simply not true. A sack bu an interior defensive lineman has the same result as a sack by an end. In fact a defensive tackle who ALMOST gets there is often a LOT more disruptive than an end who ALMOST gets there, because the DT is collapsing the pocket and getting between the QB and his receiver, clogging up the throwing lanes.

Quite honestly, if I had the option of getting pressure/sacks in equal degrees from the DT position, or the DE position, I would choose the interior pressure every time, because it is much more effective and disruptive.

 

[KJJ]

I wouldn't say the Cowboys are "set" at DE, but it's not that high on the list of priorities now. We have what appears to be a solid rotation now...no stars but the depth needed to keep them fresh. Nobody that is guaranteed to give us 12-15 sacks, but then again, if we draft Bosa, we still won't have anyone who wants s guaranteed to give us12-15 sacks.

The key to the pass rush in Marinelli's defense is the 3-tech. Collapse the pocket up the middle and take away the QB's ability to step up. Then the DEs can clean up.

If the Cowboys were set at DE most of the mocks wouldn't have them taking a DE at #4 overall. They need a "formidable" pass rusher who has to be accounted for and adds a fear factor. All their championship teams had at least one formidable pass rusher who put fear in QBs. The 70s teams had Harvey Martin, Randy White and Ed Too Tall Jones that's what made the Doomsday Defense feared.

The 90s teams were led defensively by Charles Haley who created so much havoc he freed up others to the QB. Denver has Von Miller and Ware which made it virtually impossible to contain Denver's pass rush. They had Cam Newtons head on a swivel in the SB harassing him all day with pressure coming from different angles.

To have a great pass rush you need at least one formidable pass rusher who has to be accounted for along with several others who can get to the QB. The Cowboys are far from set at DE we've added one free agent who's had 2 career sacks and resigned Crawford who has 8 career sacks.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"Best pass rusher in our team" means exactly what? That he was worth our rds 2 and 3 picks? If SD or Cleveland were to offer their Rd 2 &3 picks for Lawrence would you trade him? In a heart beat. We reached and overpaid because of need.

Crawford is nothing more than an average DT and paid like a top DT

Again, just because our incompetent FO overvalued or overpaid for players dues not make them good

Is a great DL player a need?

Absolutely

NFL Draftscout had DLaw as 32 overall. He was not a reach at all. Watching how he gained all that weight, strength, and production his value has gone up not down

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/probe.php?genpos=DE&draftyear=2014&sortby=tsxpos&order=ASC

Crawford is not being paid remotely near the top DT who make over $15m AAV. More than 50% less is not similar.

 

[Jarv]

Look at Seattle's sack stats last year, not many more than us yet there are known for a great defense. Bennett led them with 10 and Lawrence got 8 for us.It is all about rotation.

http://i6.***BLOCKED***/albums/y210/jarvman/Seattle-sacks-2015.jpg

 

[CowboyRoy]

You are making the same mistake many fans make

Just because our FO overpaid (in cap dollars or draft picks) for mediocre players does not mean the 'have taken care of the problem'

Having said that, I do believe (and have been saying on this forum for years) that we need better DTs (esp 1T) for this DL to be really good. Our coaches and FO finally wake up after years and years of ignoring the position and pick up an average player in Thornton.

So to answer your question, yes, DT and DE are both needs but DT more than DE

The only remotely quality DE we have on the roster is Lawrence. And he is coming off of back surgery. Gregory is one joint away from a year long suspension. Sadly enough, if you cant lay off the weed for draft day and then get busted 4 times in one year afterwards, you are toast. I wouldnt count on Gregory at all.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Look at Seattle's sack stats last year, not many more than us yet there are known for a great defense. Bennett led them with 10 and Lawrence got 8 for us.It is all about rotation.

http://i6.***BLOCKED***/albums/y210/jarvman/Seattle-sacks-2015.jpg

Seattle was 18 th so below middle of thr pack in sacks in 2015