Do we really need another defensive end?

[JohnnyHopkins]

DE is listed as one of the primary needs for the team in this draft, So much in fact that Bosa is mocked to us probably more than any other player, even though he really doesn't appear to be a "sack machine".

Before you say hell yes it is a top need, lets examine the facts:

1. We already have Lawrence who we gave up not one, but TWO premium picks to draft in his second year.
2. We drafted Gregory who was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, in fact a FIRST ROUND TALENT. Yes, he is suspended for 4 games, but if I remember correctly, so was Hardy,
3. We signed the DE from the Raiders who is supposed to be an up and comer.
4. Russell who was also drafted last year is in his second year. Will he play DE?
5. We resigned Crawford, who was a steady, if unspectacular contributor. Would he be worse at DE than the Golden Cock was at NT? Probably not.
6. Irving purportedly has position flex and may kick out to end. Would he suffice for 4 games while Gregory is suspended?
7. What if we drafted another DT and played Thornton at the 3 tech? Could Crawford serve as the strong side DE and kick Lawrence back to the other side?

I'm not saying that we are SET at DE. But really shouldn't we EXPECT our second rounders to fill the two starting end roles this year? If not they were a waste of draft capital.

In truth, there are not many LDEs that are sack machines, so a player that could get 13.5 sacks annually and drastically improve a pedestrian run defense should be considered if Dallas has determined he is the best player available at 4.

On the surface, none of the options above give the impression of anything other than a pedestrian starter opposite Lawrence. Gregory smoked weed so aggressively that he is already getting a four game suspension at the beginning of his second year. He was dumb enough to get busted at the combine and now dumb enough to get busted again to the tune of four games. That is not something that can be relied on.

 

[BAT]

DE is listed as one of the primary needs for the team in this draft, So much in fact that Bosa is mocked to us probably more than any other player, even though he really doesn't appear to be a "sack machine".

Before you say hell yes it is a top need, lets examine the facts:

1. We already have Lawrence who we gave up not one, but TWO premium picks to draft in his second year.
2. We drafted Gregory who was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, in fact a FIRST ROUND TALENT. Yes, he is suspended for 4 games, but if I remember correctly, so was Hardy,
3. We signed the DE from the Raiders who is supposed to be an up and comer.
4. Russell who was also drafted last year is in his second year. Will he play DE?
5. We resigned Crawford, who was a steady, if unspectacular contributor. Would he be worse at DE than the Golden Cock was at NT? Probably not.
6. Irving purportedly has position flex and may kick out to end. Would he suffice for 4 games while Gregory is suspended?
7. What if we drafted another DT and played Thornton at the 3 tech? Could Crawford serve as the strong side DE and kick Lawrence back to the other side?

I'm not saying that we are SET at DE. But really shouldn't we EXPECT our second rounders to fill the two starting end roles this year? If not they were a waste of draft capital.

There is no War Daddy on that list. You need at least ONE stud pass rusher at DE. Lawrence is not there yet. May never get there if Cowboys keep flip flopping him. Cowboys need TWO War Daddies, minimum, to make Marinelli's D hum, one on outside and one on the inside.

There is not even one War Daddy on the entire DL. By the by, the term is Jerry's not mine.

 

[BAT]

In truth, there are not many LDEs that are sack machines, so a player that could get 13.5 sacks annually and drastically improve a pedestrian run defense should be considered if Dallas has determined he is the best player available at 4.

On the surface, none of the options above give the impression of anything other than a pedestrian starter opposite Lawrence. Gregory smoked weed so aggressively that he is already getting a four game suspension at the beginning of his second year. He was dumb enough to get busted at the combine and now dumb enough to get busted again to the tune of four games. That is not something that can be relied on.

Yep. LDEs like Reggie White or Mike Strahan are not available every draft. But Bosa is not even close to either of these guys. Cowboys may want to take a look at the recently cut Bjoern Werner. He played out of position at OLB and was a poor scheme fit (should be 4-3 end instead of 3-4 OLB) in Indy.

 

[DFWJC]

Lawrence is going to get > 14 sacks this year
Now if Gregory, Irving, Mayowa, etc can chip in....

I'm still okay taking a DE if that's the best player on their board at whatever round

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

People get suspended dude, it's a reality. Von Miller has been suspended for the same offense. So was scandrick. Sure Gregory might get suspended again but then again he might not but you don't go using our top pick in another de when we have other positions that don't have nearly the talent de does. And this doesn't compare to the oline because Martin Frederick and Smith all play different positions. You only have 2 de on the field at a time. We didn't draft 3 straight left tackles did we? No.

He failed a test at the combine when he began and then failed it again before the year was out. Want to know who else got suspended for another year yesterday for what Gregory is doing? Josh Gordon.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yep. LDEs like Reggie White or Mike Strahan are not available every draft. But Bosa is not even close to either of these guys. Cowboys may want to take a look at the recently cut Bjoern Werner. He played out of position at OLB and was a poor scheme fit (should be 4-3 end instead of 3-4 OLB) in Indy.

Name me 3 DE from the draft it the last decade that are closer to players like Strahan and White then Bosa from an athletic and production standpoint..

If you say Watt you lose because the sentiment you are going with right now was the reasoning why he was 'good' not 'great' 5 years ago so he fell.

I like how you pick yet another white guy for comparison.

 

[bayeslife]

You are making the same mistake many fans make

Just because our FO overpaid (in cap dollars or draft picks) for mediocre players does not mean the 'have taken care of the problem'

Having said that, I do believe (and have been saying on this forum for years) that we need better DTs (esp 1T) for this DL to be really good. Our coaches and FO finally wake up after years and years of ignoring the position and pick up an average player in Thornton.

So to answer your question, yes, DT and DE are both needs but DT more than DE

I get that Thornton isn't a sexy NFL household name but please do your research because he's not an average player.

 

[bayeslife]

Not even close. Using the 4 on Bosa isn't wise or the best way to use the draft to acquire the most talent.

I hope you realize Bosa is seen by most scouts a top 4 player.

 

[BAT]

Name me 3 DE from the draft it the last decade that are closer to players like Strahan and White then Bosa from an athletic and production standpoint..

If you say Watt you lose because the sentiment you are going with right now was the reasoning why he was 'good' not 'great' 5 years ago so he fell.

I like how you pick yet another white guy for comparison.

I did not compare Werner to Bosa, I suggested taking a flyer on him as he is currently available. Talk about blowing things out of proportion. If you want to witch hunt, then ar least accuse me correctly, I compared Strahan and White to Bosa. A LDE picked in the top 5 should be compared to the best LDEs who played in the NFL, not just ANY 3 random DEs from the last few drafts.

Bosa is a good player and I have no problem with the pick, simply value a few other players higher. But you may want to close your legs, your agenda is showing.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I did not compare Werner to Bosa, I suggested taking a flyer on him as he is currently available. Talk about blowing things out of proportion. If you want to witch hunt, then ar least accuse me correctly, I compared Strahan and White to Bosa. A LDE picked in the top 5 should be compared to the best LDEs who played in the NFL, not just ANY 3 random DEs from the last few drafts.

Bosa is a good player and I have no problem with the pick, simply value a few other players higher. But you may want to close your legs, your agenda is showing.

Why is Bosa not close to either of those guys? He plays like they did the way he punches, slap/swims, and uses speed to power. That was precisely what those guys did. He's also immensely strong and cat like in his agility like they were. Strahan and White are not really similar players. White was more like Watt in size. Bosa has the same frame and literal skillset/toolkit as Strahan and was dominant in college football with it. If that is not 'close' then nothing is and you standard is meaningless.

Better yet name me 3 DE to come out in the past decade that are closer than Bosa is to Bruce Smith/Michael Strahan. Clowney could play like that but never did; counting him as one of the three is reasonable though. Watt got the same treatment Bosa is getting now. The rest are Derrick Thomas type 3-4 DE. Who else is there. Bosa and Clowney are the best 4-3 DE prospects to come out this decade.

It's not a witch hunt it's a desire for opinions to be informed beyond gut feel. I like the misogyny.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

Who exactly?

DLaw? He is the best passrusher on our team and if he can consistently play like he did during the second half of last season, he is the next great Dallas passrusher.

Gregory? It`s not looking good right now but it`s early and he was a low second round pick. Taking a chance on a top 10 prospect in the second round is not overpaying.

Crawford? Once again, it is early but at the end of the day, he isn't paid elite money for his position (7th highest) but he has something to prove. I like the player and the signing, if he can stay healthy this season, he will be an a top 10 4-3 DT starter which is what he is being paid to be. This is the only thing based on opinion though.

Thornton? Way too early and he got paid peanuts compared to what similar production was getting on the market.

Those are the only players on the DL with a significant investment so who is overpaid? You can have Crawford though I disagree, nobody else is overpaid.

With Thornton beside Crawford I think he plays much better

 

[Irvin88_4life]

Why is Bosa not close to either of those guys? He plays like they did the way he punches, slap/swims, and uses speed to power. That was precisely what those guys did. He's also immensely strong and cat like in his agility like they were. Strahan and White are not really similar players. White was more like Watt in size. Bosa has the same frame and literal skillset/toolkit as Strahan and was dominant in college football with it. If that is not 'close' then nothing is and you standard is meaningless.

Better yet name me 3 DE to come out in the past decade that are closer than Bosa is to Bruce Smith/Michael Strahan. Clowney could play like that but never did; counting him as one of the three is reasonable though. Watt got the same treatment Bosa is getting now. The rest are Derrick Thomas type 3-4 DE. Who else is there. Bosa and Clowney are the best 4-3 DE prospects to come out this decade.

It's not a witch hunt it's a desire for opinions to be informed beyond gut feel. I like the misogyny.

If Bosa is anything like Clowney.......no thanks

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If Bosa is anything like Clowney.......no thanks

Clowney was hailed as the second coming of Bruce Smith until his knee shredded. I haven't seen him play for the Texans tbh. He's Myles Jack now.

There are several 250 lbs OLB types drafted high lately. Von Miller and Khalil Mack headline that group; that type of player doesn't help us. I like Bosa better than Gregory and Fowler last year. There are several years of Graham, Coples, and Jordan too. I like him better than Long coming out of Virginia. Ansah was green as grass and runs a poorer shuttle(-.05s), 3 cone(-.32s!), and BJ (-4") for all of his 4.63s 40. Ansah is hailed as an elite athlete and Bosa is not. He's 'good' not 'great.'

I think Bosa is one of the best 4-3 DE prospects to come out in a very long time.

 

[JoeKing]

Yes we do and his name is Greg Hardy.

 

[BAT]

Why is Bosa not close to either of those guys? He plays like they did the way he punches, slap/swims, and uses speed to power. That was precisely what those guys did. He's also immensely strong and cat like in his agility like they were. Strahan and White are not really similar players. White was more like Watt in size. Bosa has the same frame and literal skillset/toolkit as Strahan and was dominant in college football with it. If that is not 'close' then nothing is and you standard is meaningless.

Better yet name me 3 DE to come out in the past decade that are closer than Bosa is to Bruce Smith/Michael Strahan. Clowney could play like that but never did; counting him as one of the three is reasonable though. Watt got the same treatment Bosa is getting now. The rest are Derrick Thomas type 3-4 DE. Who else is there. Bosa and Clowney are the best 4-3 DE prospects to come out this decade.

It's not a witch hunt it's a desire for opinions to be informed beyond gut feel. I like the misogyny.

Again, you are spinning my words to fit whatever agenda you are pushing. I never stated that Strahan or White were similar players, only that they excelled primarily at a similar position, LDE. It's you who is comparing their games, I am comparing the production and expectation of a top 5 player who plays LDE.

Talk about Fuzzy logic.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

Clowney was hailed as the second coming of Bruce Smith until his knee shredded. I haven't seen him play for the Texans tbh. He's Myles Jack now.

There are several 250 lbs OLB types drafted high lately. Von Miller and Khalil Mack headline that group; that type of player doesn't help us. I like Bosa better than Gregory and Fowler last year. There are several years of Graham, Coples, and Jordan too. I like him better than Long coming out of Virginia. Ansah was green as grass and runs a poorer shuttle(-.05s), 3 cone(-.32s!), and BJ (-4") for all of his 4.63s 40. Ansah is hailed as an elite athlete and Bosa is not. He's 'good' not 'great.'

I think Bosa is one of the best 4-3 DE prospects to come out in a very long time.

His production as far as rushing the passer isn't there

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

His production as far as rushing the passer isn't there

He had 70 pressures according to PFF which ranked second. STATS has him with a similar number of hurries+hits. That is about 6 times a game that he was affecting the QB. He faced a lot more double and triple teams after Bennett and Spence left and still produced at a high level. He is a TFL and FF machine too.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again, you are spinning my words to fit whatever agenda you are pushing. I never stated that Strahan or White were similar players, only that they excelled primarily at a similar position, LDE. It's you who is comparing their games, I am comparing the production and expectation of a top 5 player who plays LDE.

Talk about Fuzzy logic.

You're not going to even try to name better prospects are you? Just ignore the whole thing and wave your hands at minutiae.

I'm trying to come up with players whose games matches up with Bosa's. I don't care who argues White and Strahan. It's still a player comparison and significant to the discussion. White went about 20 lbs heavier and played differently than Strahan, Allen, and Smith.

Bosa had success at all 4 DL spots at OSU. You're making the assumption that he would not be able to beat Trent Williams and Jason Peters as a forgone conclusion. That seems presumptuous to me.

 

[BAT]

You're not going to even try to name better prospects are you? Just ignore the whole thing and wave your hands at minutiae.

I'm trying to come up with players whose games matches up with Bosa's. I don't care who argues White and Strahan. It's still a player comparison and significant to the discussion. White went about 20 lbs heavier and played differently than Strahan, Allen, and Smith.

Bosa had success at all 4 DL spots at OSU. You're making the assumption that he would not be able to beat Trent Williams and Jason Peters as a forgone conclusion. That seems presumptuous to me.

LOL. You are all over the place. If you want to start a different discussion all you had to do is ask. Putting words in my mouth was unnecessary. We can disagree and still be civil.

 

[fishspill]

If you're going to count on Gregory for anything you're braver or more foolish than me.