Do we really need another defensive end?

[LocimusPrime]

Seattle was 18th in sacks in 2015. Denver, new england, and pittsburgh where at the top with sacks totals in the high 40s to low 50s. There are different ways to win but there is a correlation with sacks/pressures and doing well in the playoffs

 

[CyberB0b]

DE is listed as one of the primary needs for the team in this draft, So much in fact that Bosa is mocked to us probably more than any other player, even though he really doesn't appear to be a "sack machine".

Before you say hell yes it is a top need, lets examine the facts:

1. We already have Lawrence who we gave up not one, but TWO premium picks to draft in his second year.
2. We drafted Gregory who was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, in fact a FIRST ROUND TALENT. Yes, he is suspended for 4 games, but if I remember correctly, so was Hardy,
3. We signed the DE from the Raiders who is supposed to be an up and comer.
4. Russell who was also drafted last year is in his second year. Will he play DE?
5. We resigned Crawford, who was a steady, if unspectacular contributor. Would he be worse at DE than the Golden Cock was at NT? Probably not.
6. Irving purportedly has position flex and may kick out to end. Would he suffice for 4 games while Gregory is suspended?
7. What if we drafted another DT and played Thornton at the 3 tech? Could Crawford serve as the strong side DE and kick Lawrence back to the other side?

I'm not saying that we are SET at DE. But really shouldn't we EXPECT our second rounders to fill the two starting end roles this year? If not they were a waste of draft capital.

We need a real pass rusher.

1. Lawrence just had a pretty significant back surgery a few months ago.
“He did something that was obviously a lot worse than what he was having. We were somewhat surprised that it was what it turned out to be," executive vice president Stephen Jones said of Lawrence’s surgery. "We thought it might be something a little less significant, but it’s nothing that we have concerns about going forward.”
2. Gregory is going to have a hard time improving watching from home. He is a joint away from a year long ban. From someone who smoked up before the combine and has failed multiple tests after the fact, this isn't a good sign.
3. That DE who you can't even name is on his third team in 3 years.
4. Who knows?
5. Crawford is a 3 tech. He will get demolished at LDE.
6. This guy is nothing more than a project at this point.
7. No. You are also forgetting that Crawford is coming off a pretty serious injury and surgery himself. Thorton isn't a pass rusher.

There isn't a single pass rusher on this team who doesn't have question marks about their health or ability to even be on an NFL roster.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

We were one of, if not the, lowest sacking defenses in the league last year.

Our big Draft get last year failed yet another drug test after he swore to the owner and coaches that he would not do drugs again so he is one puff puff and test away from being suspended a year...oh and let's not forget he had a grand total of zero sacks last year because he started the season injured and fell behind...well he is going to start off the season late again this year due to the suspension.

Our best sacker on the team in D-Law is coming off a strong finish...however he is also coming of back surgery and although he is still young...back problems don't tend to just go away for most people and especially for those in a profession that is hard on the body like Football.

Beyond that we don't have too much hope for big sack numbers from the rest of the DE's on the roster and are basically just journeymen who are getting paid cheap except for Crawford and let's face it...Crawford's grand total of sacks the last two years is EIGHT sacks.

Now...maybe we get lucky and the young DE we got from the Raiders will pull out a good season like Selvie did for us a few years back. Maybe we get lucky and a combo of Thornton,Crawford and a draft pick playing the 1 or 3 spot will help create enough pressure up the middle this season that it helps those on the outside.

Maybe we get lucky and D.Law stays healthy and continues to improve. Maybe we get lucky and Gregory finally gives up the mary jane and makes a huge impact.

That is a lot of maybe and lucky to depend on.

So Yes...I think we could use some more DEs until we prove we don't need to draft anymore DEs for a time.

But maybe that is just me being silly.

I am right with you. Lawrence is coming off major surgery and has not done it for a full year yet. Gregory was non existent when he played last year so missing him for 4 games might not hurt at all but it means we have someone lesser than him from a "potential" standpoint playing significant minutes. Mayowa is no sure bet to juice up the pass rush.

So we need someone that can get to the QB whether it is a DT or a DE. The thought is DT is the strength this year so you look to the strength for help. Probably doesn't happen in the first unless there is a trade down....I personally would love to trade down, get Rankins and another pick early in the draft. In the second there are several good players and you possibly might be able to get one in the third.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

He runs a shuttle in 4.47 and 3 cone at 7.51. His BJ is not even 10 feet.

Bosa runs a 4.21 shuttle and a 6.89 cone with a 10'2" BJ. Bosa actually can play all 3 positions like you talk about. When you watch him play he is excellent at getting off blocks because of that athleticism. When the pocket breaks down he is there to clean up the mess.

Buckner would be a DT for Marinelli and not play outside. He is not nearly quick and explosive enough. He has upside but not as an edge rusher. He plays like Arik Armstead with those long arms. Good player but not in Bosa's league at DE.

Agree to a certain extent

 

[Hoov]

I wont complain if they darft Dlineman with 3 of the first 4 picks

 

[thisiscowboyscountry]

DE is listed as one of the primary needs for the team in this draft, So much in fact that Bosa is mocked to us probably more than any other player, even though he really doesn't appear to be a "sack machine".

Before you say hell yes it is a top need, lets examine the facts:

1. We already have Lawrence who we gave up not one, but TWO premium picks to draft in his second year.
2. We drafted Gregory who was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips, in fact a FIRST ROUND TALENT. Yes, he is suspended for 4 games, but if I remember correctly, so was Hardy,
3. We signed the DE from the Raiders who is supposed to be an up and comer.
4. Russell who was also drafted last year is in his second year. Will he play DE?
5. We resigned Crawford, who was a steady, if unspectacular contributor. Would he be worse at DE than the Golden Cock was at NT? Probably not.
6. Irving purportedly has position flex and may kick out to end. Would he suffice for 4 games while Gregory is suspended?
7. What if we drafted another DT and played Thornton at the 3 tech? Could Crawford serve as the strong side DE and kick Lawrence back to the other side?

I'm not saying that we are SET at DE. But really shouldn't we EXPECT our second rounders to fill the two starting end roles this year? If not they were a waste of draft capital.

Lots of good points, I think were in a spot where we dont have to draft a de in round 1. Bosa is the attractive option, but I dont see him being a top player that is an allpro or routinely makes the pro bowl. I do however think he will be a good solid starter for 10 years, with his ceiling of a couple pro bowl appearences. Essientially I see a Greg Ellis type of ceiling.

 

[AmishCowboy]

Lots of good points, I think were in a spot where we dont have to draft a de in round 1. Bosa is the attractive option, but I dont see him being a top player that is an allpro or routinely makes the pro bowl. I do however think he will be a good solid starter for 10 years, with his ceiling of a couple pro bowl appearences. Essientially I see a Greg Ellis type of ceiling.

Nothing wrong with that

 

[Kaiser]

Yep. We have plenty of rotational players at DE, but we lack an impact player to play opposite Lawrence. Gregory can't be counted on for obvious reasons.

Our DT rotation, on the other hand, is pretty much set. We could add another young player with flex to the group for depth since this is a good DT draft, but we don't need to.

Totally agree, but I think they draft Kevin Dodd or Emmanuel Ogbah in the 2nd round to add to the LDE rotation with DLaw going to RDE. If they don't pick a DE, they can sign Jason Jones and get the same production or better.

I think there is a small chance Greg Hardy agrees to a very low contract and returns.

The area I disagree is DT, I think there will be very good value to draft a 1 Tech in the 4th or 6th, also its possible a mid-first round talent drops to our pick at 34 and we draft them.

 

[Doomsay]

Look at Seattle's sack stats last year, not many more than us yet there are known for a great defense. Bennett led them with 10 and Lawrence got 8 for us.It is all about rotation.

http://i6.***BLOCKED***/albums/y210/jarvman/Seattle-sacks-2015.jpg

I think you need to look at QB pressures as well, the good DL's like Seattle's generally have 2 players with more pressures than our entire DL. We are incredibly poor at pressuring the QB.

 

[JPostSam]

Sign Jason Jones, don't draft Bosa.

What is so hard about that?

jones has 26 sacks in 8 seasons with three teams and you prefer him to bosa.

smh.

 

[Derinyar]

jones has 26 sacks in 8 seasons with three teams and you prefer him to bosa.

smh.

It probably depends on what you're talking about. For next year I'd not be too surprised if they have a similar production level stat wise. Rookie DE just don't tend to perform at high levels, they tend to need strength and technique work. So for next year there's an argument of opportunity cost. Jones + Non Bosa at #4 is probably a better talent allotment next year then Bosa is. Going forward it doesn't seem likely that Jones is in the same quality as Bosa but at the same time Bosa also isn't likely the elite RDE you'd hope for at #4 overall.

If he's arguing that Bosa is likely to be a worse player for more then a year then Jones that's probably a bad position.

 

[big dog cowboy]

jones has 26 sacks in 8 seasons with three teams and you prefer him to bosa.

smh.

Not even close. Using the 4 on Bosa isn't wise or the best way to use the draft to acquire the most talent.

 

[rpntex]

If the Cowboys were set at DE most of the mocks wouldn't have them taking a DE at #4 overall. They need a "formidable" pass rusher who has to be accounted for and adds a fear factor. All their championship teams had at least one formidable pass rusher who put fear in QBs. The 70s teams had Harvey Martin, Randy White and Ed Too Tall Jones that's what made the Doomsday Defense feared.

The 90s teams were led defensively by Charles Haley who created so much havoc he freed up others to the QB. Denver has Von Miller and Ware which made it virtually impossible to contain Denver's pass rush. They had Cam Newtons head on a swivel in the SB harassing him all day with pressure coming from different angles.

To have a great pass rush you need at least one formidable pass rusher who has to be accounted for along with several others who can get to the QB. The Cowboys are far from set at DE we've added one free agent who's had 2 career sacks and resigned Crawford who has 8 career sacks.

Uh, average reading comprehension will tell you that the first line of my post says the Cowboys are NOT set at DE.

Just to entertain the discussion, however, there is no way to know what Dallas has at defensive end until we see them play as a unit. This coaching staff, especially Marinelli, will be the ones to determine what our needs truly are. To take it a step further, and they should tell you just how "in the know" the pundits really are, drafting Bosa at number four is not going to improve the pass rush. If Dallas is really into him on improving the rush further then they need to look elsewhere in the draft, such as Shaq Lawson.

That's not saying Bosa is not going to be a fine defensive end in the league. He's just not going to be a "sack master". He may play the run better than anybody else out there, and there is definitely a need for that. But, by your own words, Dallas is looking to turn up the pressure on the quarterback Taking Bosa at number 4 doesn't help that.

I stand by my comment in the first post… The best way for Dallas to "turn up the heat" is at the defense of tackle position. Look at all of Marinelli's defenses over the course of his career. He had some pretty good DEs, but his 3-techs (Warren Sapp) is what made the defense go.

 

[endersdragon]

"Best pass rusher in our team" means exactly what? That he was worth our rds 2 and 3 picks? If SD or Cleveland were to offer their Rd 2 &3 picks for Lawrence would you trade him? In a heart beat. We reached and overpaid because of need.

Crawford is nothing more than an average DT and paid like a top DT

Again, just because our incompetent FO overvalued or overpaid for players dues not make them good

Is a great DL player a need?

Absolutely

Crawford was top 10 last year among DTs in sacks and was pretty good at tackling without a competent 1-tech next to him (Thorton should really help there). D-Law towards the end of last year was also getting to be a top 10 DE (in December/January he was pretty much unblockable) in terms of getting to the QB, and once again that was with a huge weakness at 1-tech.

 

[KJJ]

Uh, average reading comprehension will tell you that the first line of my post says the Cowboys are NOT set at DE.

Just to entertain the discussion, however, there is no way to know what Dallas has at defensive end until we see them play as a unit. This coaching staff, especially Marinelli, will be the ones to determine what our needs truly are. To take it a step further, and they should tell you just how "in the know" the pundits really are, drafting Bosa at number four is not going to improve the pass rush. If Dallas is really into him on improving the rush further then they need to look elsewhere in the draft, such as Shaq Lawson.

That's not saying Bosa is not going to be a fine defensive end in the league. He's just not going to be a "sack master". He may play the run better than anybody else out there, and there is definitely a need for that. But, by your own words, Dallas is looking to turn up the pressure on the quarterback Taking Bosa at number 4 doesn't help that.

I stand by my comment in the first post… The best way for Dallas to "turn up the heat" is at the defense of tackle position. Look at all of Marinelli's defenses over the course of his career. He had some pretty good DEs, but his 3-techs (Warren Sapp) is what made the defense go.

I misread your first line but you said DE is not high on the list of priorities due to the signing of Mayowa who only has 2 career sacks in 3 seasons and the re-signing of Crawford who only has 8 sacks in his 3 year career. You're 100% wrong if you think signing those 2 players has reduced our need for a DE or practically every mock draft wouldn't have the Cowboys taking a DE at #4 overall. If you're one of those who thinks Hardy is coming back you're going to be wrong and without him what little pass rush we had last season will be even less if we don't replace him with a formidable pass rusher.

Part of the success DLaw had last season was due to opponents having to contain Hardy. No way are the Cowboys going to improve their pass rush without a big time pass rusher that opponents fear and have to account for. They can't go into the 2016 season set with the DE's they currently have and hope for the best or they'll be on the road to picking in the top 10 next season. Unless we get lucky in the draft at corner with a solid player who can cover and make plays we're going to continue having issues in the secondary so the only way to mask that never ending problem is a strong pass rush.

No one knows how Bosa will turn out or Shaq Lawson. I agree the Cowboys need a big, nasty DT who can collapse the pocket that would help the pass rush but you still need a formidable pass rusher that can get to the QB and you have to look high in the draft to have a good chance at landing one. The top rated DT by most is A'Shawn Robinson and many have him going outside the top 10. We can try our luck later in the draft on a DT but we have to come away with a potentially great pass rusher.

 

[starfrombirth]

I actually believe once the Cowboys have the draft board in place that Buckner will be higher on the board than Bosa. Buckner has position flex as a DT and a DE. He can play the RDE or LDE spot or the 3 tech or 1 tech spot. Has extremely long arms which would be a nice help to any defense knocking down passes. I believe his ceiling (growth potential) is higher than Bosa or Lawson. I think that San Diego and Baltimore and Tampa Bay probably have him higher than Bosa also. To me he fits Marinelli D type lineman better than Bosa.

I did a little analysis on Buckner vs Bosa and a couple other rushers and I thought that Buckner definitely does NOT fit Marinelli's style. Buckner has long arms but that's it. He is slow footed and is easily stone walled with 1vs1 blocking. Please understand, I was not against Buckner b4 my analysis. I really wanted him to be "It". But he's not... neither is Bosa. Lawson would be my pick and I'd make it sprinting to the podium.

 

[dantheman41]

We absolutely need another DE, but not another question mark or rotational type of guy. Need a guy that can absolutely start, and not be just a JAG.

 

[starfrombirth]

I stand by my comment in the first post… The best way for Dallas to "turn up the heat" is at the defense of tackle position. Look at all of Marinelli's defenses over the course of his career. He had some pretty good DEs, but his 3-techs (Warren Sapp) is what made the defense go.

Don't forget Simeon RIce who was a little better than "pretty good".

 

[Jstopper]

That you just gloss over the suspension on Gregory and further potential risk is telling.

I would also mention that we spent 3 top draft picks on oline and that turned out well. You can never have enough pass rushers. If it holds true for corners it's doubly true for dline.

People get suspended dude, it's a reality. Von Miller has been suspended for the same offense. So was scandrick. Sure Gregory might get suspended again but then again he might not but you don't go using our top pick in another de when we have other positions that don't have nearly the talent de does. And this doesn't compare to the oline because Martin Frederick and Smith all play different positions. You only have 2 de on the field at a time. We didn't draft 3 straight left tackles did we? No.

 

[Doomsay]

People get suspended dude, it's a reality. Von Miller has been suspended for the same offense. So was scandrick. Sure Gregory might get suspended again but then again he might not but you don't go using our top pick in another de when we have other positions that don't have nearly the talent de does. And this doesn't compare to the oline because Martin Frederick and Smith all play different positions. You only have 2 de on the field at a time. We didn't draft 3 straight left tackles did we? No.

Gregory has a high probability of getting suspended again. Deemed a big character risk coming out of school, he has blown two drug tests in just his first year. DLaw has had 3 surgeries in his first two years, the last one, a more concerningly serious back surgery than the team anticipated. Combine that with the loss of a pro bowl-caliber DE from last year, and you might conclude tha DE is still a need in 2016, despite the resources the team committed in the past.