Dog Fights - adults only please?

[5Stars]

Off point a little but anyone remember this episode.

JERRY: So Marcelino's going to take down the check?

KRAMER: Well, it comes down if Little Jerry Seinfeld wins the cockfight.

JERRY: Great! <realizing> What?

KRAMER: Well, Marcelino, he has cockfights in the back of his store.

JERRY: Ah ha...

KRAMER: So, he says if Little Jerry Seinfeld wins, the check comes down.

JERRY: Kramer, cockfighting is illegal.

KRAMER: Only in The United States.

JERRY: It's inhumane!

KRAMER: No, Jerry, it's not what you think it is.

JERRY: It's two roosters peckin' at each other!

KRAMER: What?

JERRY: Yeah!

KRAMER: Well, I thought they wore gloves and helmets, you know, like "American Gladiators."

JERRY: No Kramer, Little Jerry could get hurt.

KRAMER: Well, I left him with Marcelino!

<Jerry shrugs and holds his hands out.>

KRAMER: My Little Jerry! <Runs out.>

:laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:

 

[jackrussell]

Am I the only one that pulls for the bulls in Pamplona?

 

[jobberone]

its the way they kill minks to insure the quality of the fur. i believe with cows they are still hitting them over the head with blunt force trauma, now im not sure wther they still use ropes or cattle prods to the groin in bull riding but i do know that they still apply toxc chemicals to the eyes and bloodstreamas well as infectious disease in animal testing, and of course there are the special pens that they put veal calves in to insure that they cannot move to ensure the tenerness of meat.

You got me there. I had no idea minks were killed that way. Is that still the usual way in these days?

Cows are generally killed with a 22 to the head. That's the way most people slaughter pigs. Of course I guess that could vary from state to state. I don't even know if that is legislated. It's too difficult to kill them with blunt trauma and not humane. If enough people want to legislate the slaughter of animals differently then all they have to do is get enough votes to legislate change. Until then I'll eat my cows, chickens and pigs with relish hoping they weren't mistreated in life. I do believe some states have adopted laws against leaving animals in cramped pens their entire life. Are you sure they still treat calves meant for slaughter for veal that way?

Your statement about chemicals to the eyes is not true anymore. Unless you know of a specific company testing chemicals that does? Lab animals must be treated and even killed in a humane way. Mice and rats are generally pithed which is as humane as I know how. Despite some people's repugnance to using animals to test drugs it's necessary. Unless of course they want us to test them on humans first?? I do have reservations about it but they're overcome very easy when I remember children with cancers have come a very long way in survival and cure. And all those drugs are tested on animals first. That's just one example of a necessary evil.

Are you certain rodeos still use that method to make bulls entertaining to ride?

 

[Concord]

I can't understand why there needs to be a sliding scale for some people to justify this. It's better than bullfights, but not than chicken fights? How exactly does that matter?

How about that it is illegal in all 50 states and a felony in 48 of the 50? Is that good enough?

In the planet earth special that you saw, were those animals manipulated by men? Or are you saying what they do in nature should be dictated by man made laws?

Of the beef and pork for dinner last night, how much of it was dead because it had been in a fight for human pleasure? How many dogs that die in these fights become food?

I'm sorry, I find this whole attempt at a tangent illogical from the salient point. It is a felony in Virginia. Not a jay walking misdemeanor. Not speeding. It is about animal cruelty and bloodlust.

Nice Post.


"If somebody is too stupid to understand the fundamental immorality of dog fighting, you're never going to be able to explain it to him."

 

[Hostile]

i agree that there should be no sliding scale. if something is tortured then it is tortured. it is either acceptable or it is not.

to me it doesnt matter if its because you put it in a piut to fight to the death or if its because you insert an electrode into its rectal cavity and shock it until it dies.

the only differentitation is that you are not emotionally distant from dogs like you are with chickens or cows because as you have stated before grwoing up on a farm you have to distance yourself. you cannot condemn yourself.

I realize that I am in the 40+ crowd whom you have showed so much disdain for in the myriad threads on this topic, but I appreciate that you debate me cleanly. Let me assure you I would have felt this way in my 30's, 20's teens, and any age.

It is true that as a ranch kid you distance yourself from the animals and they aren't pets. I remember going to college and girls being very interested in me because we had 40 horses. They would say, "oh I bet you rode all the time." My reply would be, "yeah, but for work, not for fun." But let me say this about these animals I had no emotional attachment to. I also killed coyotes and wild dogs who were preying on the yearling calves.

These wild animals were just doing what their naturals instincts tell them. Why should I care? Especially since there was no emotional attraction. For someone who grows up outside of a ranch lifestyle that might be hard to explain. I once saw an old cowboy named Carl Graham rope a mountain lion that was killing his calves and when the mountain lion decided to come up the rope to get Carl or his horse his cowboy partner Tom Farrell roped him from the opposite direction. I've seen cowboys stand between wild hunters and their cattle to run them off. One time I saw an unarmed Mexican cowboy named Augustine do it.

Why? After all, there's no emotional attachment.

I'm sorry Fuzzy, but I don't see where the examples that have been raised in these weeks of threads have been synonymous or relevant. Rodeo has been mentioned and I come from a family of rodeo cowboys. Rodeo isn't illegal and the animals dish out more abuse than they receive for the most part. At least the rough stock animals anyway. I know a rodeo cowboy named Lewis Fields. He was the All Around Cowboy 3 times, I think in 1985, 1986, and 1987, but I may be off a year there. He is now a rough stock contractor. If you were to walk up to him and tell him he is cruel to his animals I think he'd probably fight you. You can't believe how those animals are revered. Think I'm kidding?

There used to be a bull named Bodacious, and he was known as a cowboy killer. He hurt more cowboys than maybe any bull ever has. One cowboy he hurt was named Tuff Hedeman. He smashed Tuff's face in. I read one time where Tuff has needed 11 surgeries to repair his face from that bull. After nearly a year away Tuff drew Bodacious in the National Finals. As he got on his back he made a decision to waive his ride. You see, earlier in the NFR Bodacious hurt yet another cowboy. The gate swung open and Bodacious was turned out without rider.

His owner decided to retire him. At the last round of the NFR that year, 1995, as the rodeo ended Bodacious the bull was let into the rodeo arena one last time for the fans to see. That bull got a standing ovation and people were crying. Talk to those in the rodeo family to this day and they will get emotional when talking about Bodacious' death.

The way all of this has been lost to me is in trying to say it is right or wrong, or should be. At one time in this country dog fighting was legal. Now it isn't. And those who remain in that filtered and cloudy world are operating outside the law. It really is as black and white as that for me. I don't know those animals and I have killed dogs Fuzzy. Wild ones as I said earlier, but they were still dogs. It doesn't take an advanced degree in human psychology to know why it is wrong.

I don't see why some are trying to ride that train on this subject. Even a moral compass younger than the dreaded 40 year mark should point to the obvious. Against the law. Does it really need to go further than that? For me, it doesn't. I don't need to spin control being a carnivore, or what animals do in the wild, or jay walking is a crime to simply see that what was happening at that house was against the law. If Vick was involved and they can prove it then he should pay for the misdeeds.

You don't have to be 40+ to know that Baretta's theme song said it best, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Don't do it."

 

[Big Dakota]

I am actually looking for mature responses here(put down the flame gun). I am not being a smart*** while asking the following questions? I have never been or ever would be interested in dog fights, but I am having a hard time understanding the universal outrage.

1) Are dog fights worse than say chicken fights?
2) Are dog fights worse than bull fights? I saw one in Barcelona and I have never seen anything so brutal.
3) I just saw the planet earth special..Why are dog fights worse than the natural carnage that happens every day in the animal kingdom?
4) Many of us had cows or pigs for dinner last night...

Is it the idea that people are betting, the idea that people find this entertaining, or is it that so many people are attached to dogs as pets and relate to it from that perspective?

1) Both are illegal. What's your point?
2)Bull fights don't exist in America. What's your point?
3)Comparing forced fights to nature is real smart
4) Food is food. You cry when tomatoes are picked?


If you don't understand no one can help you. Pass the A-1, my steak is getting cold.

 

[Concord]

2) While I think bullfighting no longer has a place in society it is far less worse than dog fighting. At least the bull has a chance to come away the victor. And many bullfighter has experienced the agony of defeat against a bull....and rightfully so. Dog fighting is far more brutal to the point that there is no real "winner", the victor often being maimed beyond help.

I REALLY just Love when Bullfighters get gored...There's something so very satisfying about it.

 

[dallasfan]

1) Are dog fights worse than say chicken fights?

Yes, Dogs are more intelligent than chickes, but I don't condone either activity

2) Are dog fights worse than bull fights? I saw one in Barcelona and I have never seen anything so brutal.

I've never seen a bull fight, or dog fight, but I'd say a Bull fight is probably worse from what I've heard, but we're talking about domesticated animals. But once again I don't condone bull fighting

3) I just saw the planet earth special..Why are dog fights worse than the natural carnage that happens every day in the animal kingdom?

Domesticated animals that's why.

4) Many of us had cows or pigs for dinner last night...

But I'm pretty sure none of us eat dogs, which is the difference, not to mention what do you get out of dog fighting? Althhough meat isn't as healthy, it provides nourishment. Only thing you could get out of dog fighting is entertainment, which probably means you are entertained easily.

 

[Big Dakota]

Hey Hos, i've had people ak me if we name our cows:laugh1: I said maybe if we had 30 milk cows, but i'd have a heck of a time remembering 1500 names

 

[jobberone]

Hey, jobberone...I think they did that to Ted Bundy! (of course, that was probably cruel...)

I heard that his mother commited suicide when the prison sent her the electrial bill...!!


I'm not sure if they used his hair for fur, or of anyone ate him afterwards...

You are a sick man. LOL.

Officially that post was repugnant. Unofficially it was funny as heck.

 

[Concord]

Am I the only one that pulls for the bulls in Pamplona?

Nope.

Love to see those idiots gored too.

 

[Hostile]

Hey Hos, i've had people ak me if we name our cows:laugh1: I said maybe if we had 30 milk cows, but i'd have a heck of a time remembering 1500 names

LOL

I can relate.

I am going to try and find some pictures and scan them of life on the ranch.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You got me there. I had no idea minks were killed that way. Is that still the usual way in these days?

Cows are generally killed with a 22 to the head. That's the way most people slaughter pigs. Of course I guess that could vary from state to state. I don't even know if that is legislated. It's too difficult to kill them with blunt trauma and not humane. If enough people want to legislate the slaughter of animals differently then all they have to do is get enough votes to legislate change. Until then I'll eat my cows, chickens and pigs with relish hoping they weren't mistreated in life. I do believe some states have adopted laws against leaving animals in cramped pens their entire life. Are you sure they still treat calves meant for slaughter for veal that way?

Your statement about chemicals to the eyes is not true anymore. Unless you know of a specific company testing chemicals that does? Lab animals must be treated and even killed in a humane way. Mice and rats are generally pithed which is as humane as I know how. Despite some people's repugnance to using animals to test drugs it's necessary. Unless of course they want us to test them on humans first?? I do have reservations about it but they're overcome very easy when I remember children with cancers have come a very long way in survival and cure. And all those drugs are tested on animals first. That's just one example of a necessary evil.

Are you certain rodeos still use that method to make bulls entertaining to ride?

Gillette used to be the largest entity that would test cosmetics and similar items on animals and while they have stopped there are still other companies that do it.

i was wrong about the blunt force trauma to cows there are three primary methods.

1) a steel rod is shot to the back of the animals head. bullets are much too expensive. it often takes more than one shot to kill the animal.

2) an electric current induses a seizure at which they slit the animals throat

3) the kosher method which involves slitting the throat and hanging the animal by the hindquarters.

The animal handlers at rodeos do indeed abus the animals before releasing them from the pen. The reason animals that are around humans and horses everyday run out the pen like they were shocked in the groin is because a cattle prod did just that. they key is to get the animal to be so afraid that it runs for its life when it gets out of the pen.

and i understand the need for animal testing but it is still not nice to inject a baboon with anthrax or hiv.

 

[5Stars]

Hey Hos, i've had people ak me if we name our cows:laugh1: I said maybe if we had 30 milk cows, but i'd have a heck of a time remembering 1500 names

Freakin pervert! What about the sheep!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I realize that I am in the 40+ crowd whom you have showed so much disdain for in the myriad threads on this topic, but I appreciate that you debate me cleanly. Let me assure you I would have felt this way in my 30's, 20's teens, and any age.

It is true that as a ranch kid you distance yourself from the animals and they aren't pets. I remember going to college and girls being very interested in me because we had 40 horses. They would say, "oh I bet you rode all the time." My reply would be, "yeah, but for work, not for fun." But let me say this about these animals I had no emotional attachment to. I also killed coyotes and wild dogs who were preying on the yearling calves.

These wild animals were just doing what their naturals instincts tell them. Why should I care? Especially since there was no emotional attraction. For someone who grows up outside of a ranch lifestyle that might be hard to explain. I once saw an old cowboy named Carl Graham rope a mountain lion that was killing his calves and when the mountain lion decided to come up the rope to get Carl or his horse his cowboy partner Tom Farrell roped him from the opposite direction. I've seen cowboys stand between wild hunters and their cattle to run them off. One time I saw an unarmed Mexican cowboy named Augustine do it.

Why? After all, there's no emotional attachment.

I'm sorry Fuzzy, but I don't see where the examples that have been raised in these weeks of threads have been synonymous or relevant. Rodeo has been mentioned and I come from a family of rodeo cowboys. Rodeo isn't illegal and the animals dish out more abuse than they receive for the most part. At least the rough stock animals anyway. I know a rodeo cowboy named Lewis Fields. He was the All Around Cowboy 3 times, I think in 1985, 1986, and 1987, but I may be off a year there. He is now a rough stock contractor. If you were to walk up to him and tell him he is cruel to his animals I think he'd probably fight you. You can't believe how those animals are revered. Think I'm kidding?

There used to be a bull named Bodacious, and he was known as a cowboy killer. He hurt more cowboys than maybe any bull ever has. One cowboy he hurt was named Tuff Hedeman. He smashed Tuff's face in. I read one time where Tuff has needed 11 surgeries to repair his face from that bull. After nearly a year away Tuff drew Bodacious in the National Finals. As he got on his back he made a decision to waive his ride. You see, earlier in the NFR Bodacious hurt yet another cowboy. The gate swung open and Bodacious was turned out without rider.

His owner decided to retire him. At the last round of the NFR that year, 1995, as the rodeo ended Bodacious the bull was let into the rodeo arena one last time for the fans to see. That bull got a standing ovation and people were crying. Talk to those in the rodeo family to this day and they will get emotional when talking about Bodacious' death.

The way all of this has been lost to me is in trying to say it is right or wrong, or should be. At one time in this country dog fighting was legal. Now it isn't. And those who remain in that filtered and cloudy world are operating outside the law. It really is as black and white as that for me. I don't know those animals and I have killed dogs Fuzzy. Wild ones as I said earlier, but they were still dogs. It doesn't take an advanced degree in human psychology to know why it is wrong.

I don't see why some are trying to ride that train on this subject. Even a moral compass younger than the dreaded 40 year mark should point to the obvious. Against the law. Does it really need to go further than that? For me, it doesn't. I don't need to spin control being a carnivore, or what animals do in the wild, or jay walking is a crime to simply see that what was happening at that house was against the law. If Vick was involved and they can prove it then he should pay for the misdeeds.

You don't have to be 40+ to know that Baretta's theme song said it best, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Don't do it."

First of all the DVS was really talking about silverbear. i dont like pigeonholing people and the comment on age was bad form and im sorry about that. you for the most part seem level headed.

im sure that many dogfighters also like their dogs as well and there have been cases where dogs dont go after the other dog but rahter go after one of the people standing nearby. In both cases i think the dog or the cow would rather be doing anything but what we humans are forcing them to do.

of course the guy that owns rough stock would get mad if i said that he abused his animals because again that owuld be a situation where he would have to condemn himself. if he allows people to do things in the pen to the animal to scare or anger the animal then he is still abusing the cow no matter how mad he may get.

im not arguing the fact that is illegal i bow to democracy on it but my vote would not have been for it. its all torture just under different guises.

but really just beacuse something is made illegal does not mean that it should be. just because a lot of people say something is as it shold be does not mean that its right. its not as if im going to go out and start a dogfighting ring to try and prove a point. but one thing in all of this is very clear and that is the amount of distance people have towards animals in general. i start relaying typical actions towards animals in legal activities i am met with incredulity or disdain.

Now i dont come to the same conclusion that many do but im not just making this stuff up.

 

[5Stars]

Gillette used to be the largest entity that would test cosmetics and similar items on animals and while they have stopped there are still other companies that do it.

i was wrong about the blunt force trauma to cows there are three primary methods.

1) a steel rod is shot to the back of the animals head. bullets are much too expensive. it often takes more than one shot to kill the animal.

2) an electric current induses a seizure at which they slit the animals throat

3) the kosher method which involves slitting the throat and hanging the animal by the hindquarters.

The animal handlers at rodeos do indeed abus the animals before releasing them from the pen. The reason animals that are around humans and horses everyday run out the pen like they were shocked in the groin is because a cattle prod did just that. they key is to get the animal to be so afraid that it runs for its life when it gets out of the pen.

and i understand the need for animal testing but it is still not nice to inject a baboon with anthrax or hiv.

THANK YOU!

See, it's not all bad...

 

[Big Dakota]

LOL

I can relate.

I am going to try and find some pictures and scan them of life on the ranch.

​

I can understand people thinking some aspects of ranching are cruel, but they don't usually say it while woofing down a burger. Most of us are carnivores after all.

 

[jobberone]

Gillette used to be the largest entity that would test cosmetics and similar items on animals and while they have stopped there are still other companies that do it.

i was wrong about the blunt force trauma to cows there are three primary methods.

1) a steel rod is shot to the back of the animals head. bullets are much too expensive. it often takes more than one shot to kill the animal.

2) an electric current induses a seizure at which they slit the animals throat

3) the kosher method which involves slitting the throat and hanging the animal by the hindquarters.

The animal handlers at rodeos do indeed abus the animals before releasing them from the pen. The reason animals that are around humans and horses everyday run out the pen like they were shocked in the groin is because a cattle prod did just that. they key is to get the animal to be so afraid that it runs for its life when it gets out of the pen.

and i understand the need for animal testing but it is still not nice to inject a baboon with anthrax or hiv.

They used to kill pigs in SC with a 22 bullet. Maybe they don't do that anymore. It may be a simple matter of how they are run thru. When you put ten or so in a pen to slaughter you sit on the rail and shoot them. I forgot the kosher way.

The treatment of animals has changed a lot. I asked the question the way I did because I really don't think they're treated inhumanely these days. Including the cosmetic industry. But I don't have firsthand knowledge of this anymore. If you know of a company doing that like Gillette then I'd like to know.

So they are still shocking animals at rodeos these days??

 

[5Stars]

Hey Hos, i've had people ak me if we name our cows:laugh1: I said maybe if we had 30 milk cows, but i'd have a heck of a time remembering 1500 names

Never...ever, ever...name your food!

 

[Big Dakota]

Never...ever, ever...name your food!

Mine is called a rare ribeye and yes, i'd hit it over the head if i had to.