Doom and Gloom from Dale Hanson...

marsbennett

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Yes, we squandered this past offseason.

I don't believe we will make that mistake again, but money will talk. Selling that you can be a Cowboy or play for Purcells is not that important to most. Money and the chance to win. Are we gonna get that with more ex Jets?
 

jimmy40

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marsbennett said:
Yes, we squandered this past offseason.

I don't believe we will make that mistake again, but money will talk. Selling that you can be a Cowboy or play for Purcells is not that important to most. Money and the chance to win. Are we gonna get that with more ex Jets?
Why would you come to a team with Vinny and two nobodies at QB? How do you sell that to free agents as a chance to win?
 

mr.jameswoods

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jimmy40 said:
Why would you come to a team with Vinny and two nobodies at QB? How do you sell that to free agents as a chance to win?

Exactly, truth be told, a lot of players would rather not play for Parcells. He is very old school and some players don't like be talked down to and treated like a kid. People would deal with Parcells because he was a winner but now that his method doesn't seem to be as effective as before, players are not that enthralled with his mystique. Plus, we are far from being a championship team.

Sure, money talks and we will always be able to attract free agents if we offer the most money. Even the Cardinals get free agents if they pony up the most dough but if another championship contending team offers a player similar pay, I don't think that free agent will join Dallas for it's reputation like it did in the past.
 

Sarge

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I agree with everything Dale said - he's right IMO.

The only thing I disagree with is his Superbowl pick.

I believe Philly will get there and get their a$$e$ handed to them by a far better New England team.
 

BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY

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joseephuss said:
I don't think I want many of those coaches you listed here in Dallas. I am also pretty sure that several are being bashed by their fans.

I don't think Bill should be fired, but there should be expectations that this team should be better next season. They should have been better this year. I think expecting them to go deep in the playoffs was unrealistic, but they should have improved on the performance of 2003.

Many felt that Dallas would be a little better team and still not have as good a record as 2003 and not make the playoffs. That was realistic. And if they would have been at least as good as 2003, they could have put together a 9-7 or 8-8 season and actually made the playoffs. But they weren't. They didn't address several needs in the off season and they had the opportunity to do it. They were worse and it doesn't look as if there are easy answers for their problems or one season turn arounds. It will take this season to get it started on track, and that is what I will be looking for.

I for one am disappointed that after two full years that Bill only went 6-10. That to me isn't much of an improvement over Campo's three straight 5-11 seasons. I am hoping for better and in two more seasons, if it isn't, then why not look for a change.

Agreed...But answer this one simple question: What team that loses its starting Qb (cut late in camp), starting free saftey (woody), starting RCB (Hunter), Starting Deep Threat WR (Glenn), Starting RB (JJ for over half the season), and starting Blocking TE (cambell) can overcome ALL these injuries as essential skill positions and still improve???? I'll answer this...NONE!!!
 

BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY

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mr.jameswoods said:
Exactly, truth be told, a lot of players would rather not play for Parcells. He is very old school and some players don't like be talked down to and treated like a kid. People would deal with Parcells because he was a winner but now that his method doesn't seem to be as effective as before, players are not that enthralled with his mystique. Plus, we are far from being a championship team.

Sure, money talks and we will always be able to attract free agents if we offer the most money. Even the Cardinals get free agents if they pony up the most dough but if another championship contending team offers a player similar pay, I don't think that free agent will join Dallas for it's reputation like it did in the past.
It is ironic though that Jimmy Johnson coached with the same hard edge but his "method" would be effective in todays NFL by some of our standards here on this board...Interesting note!!!
 

JackMagist

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BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY said:
Agreed...But answer this one simple question: What team that loses its starting Qb (cut late in camp), starting free saftey (woody), starting RCB (Hunter), Starting Deep Threat WR (Glenn), Starting RB (JJ for over half the season), and starting Blocking TE (cambell) can overcome ALL these injuries as essential skill positions and still improve???? I'll answer this...NONE!!!
Actually Carter was cut early in camp; the first week in fact before the first preseason game. And I don't think that was such a factor since his numbers were similar to Vinny's. Still your point about the injuries and players losses is well taken. I think that one thing that is overlooked is the loss of Willie Blade (regardless of the reason) he played well the year before and we missed that level of play in the middle this year.

But the fact that the other guys (except Woody) will be coming back is reason for optomism for next year. Optomism that is IF we do a good job in offseason filling the other holes on the team.
 

mr.jameswoods

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JackMagist said:
Actually Carter was cut early in camp; the first week in fact before the first preseason game. And I don't think that was such a factor since his numbers were similar to Vinny's. Still your point about the injuries and players losses is well taken. I think that one thing that is overlooked is the loss of Willie Blade (regardless of the reason) he played well the year before and we missed that level of play in the middle this year.

But the fact that the other guys (except Woody) will be coming back is reason for optomism for next year. Optomism that is IF we do a good job in offseason filling the other holes on the team.

You can't say that Carter wouldn't have helped lastt season because his numbers were similar. Yes, if Carter started the entire season, he might have put up similar numbers to Vinny. But the reason why not having his last year was a loss was because he could have filled in for Vinny during games when the QB was obviously tiring.

A person would have to be in complete denial if he thinks Parcells wouldn't have wanted Quincy during midseason last year. It was obvious. How else do you explain why he let Drew Henson start the Thanksgiving game. Parcells had to pull Henson because he was obviously showing his inexperience. He didn't just stick Vinny back there becaus he thought so highly of him. It was just that Parcells didn't have any one else to turn to so he was forced to starting the 41 year old QB.

See it's not even about who is better Vinny vs. Quincy. It's about depth. It's about having another guy on your roster that is capable of starting. A fresh Quincy Carter is still better than a tired and beaten 41 year old QB during mid-season. I'm sorry but that's just a fact. vinny is probably better than Quincy but he is also a lot older and the fact is old QB's are human and they will tire. That's what happened last year so it was foolish to cut Carter when he could have helped off the bench like he did with the Jets this year.

Peace
 

mr.jameswoods

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BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY said:
It is ironic though that Jimmy Johnson coached with the same hard edge but his "method" would be effective in todays NFL by some of our standards here on this board...Interesting note!!!

Except for the fact that Jimmy didn't coach the same way Parcells did. Jimmy Johnson catered to his superstars and treated them differently than the rookies. Johnsn was a politician. Parcells is a dictator who treams everyone as if they are subordinates including the guys he knows like Vinny and Keyshawn. Parcells has yelled at both players this season. Some people love that because Parcells is fair. But the truth is an old veteran doesn't like to be treated that way. Vinny and Keyshawn have worked with Parcells before but I don't think many prime free agents will come with knowledge that Parcells will talk down to them.
 

JackMagist

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mr.jameswoods said:
You can't say that Carter wouldn't have helped lastt season because his numbers were similar. Yes, if Carter started the entire season, he might have put up similar numbers to Vinny. But the reason why not having his last year was a loss was because he could have filled in for Vinny during games when the QB was obviously tiring.

A person would have to be in complete denial if he thinks Parcells wouldn't have wanted Quincy during midseason last year. It was obvious. How else do you explain why he let Drew Henson start the Thanksgiving game. Parcells had to pull Henson because he was obviously showing his inexperience. He didn't just stick Vinny back there becaus he thought so highly of him. It was just that Parcells didn't have any one else to turn to so he was forced to starting the 41 year old QB.

See it's not even about who is better Vinny vs. Quincy. It's about depth. It's about having another guy on your roster that is capable of starting. A fresh Quincy Carter is still better than a tired and beaten 41 year old QB during mid-season. I'm sorry but that's just a fact. vinny is probably better than Quincy but he is also a lot older and the fact is old QB's are human and they will tire. That's what happened last year so it was foolish to cut Carter when he could have helped off the bench like he did with the Jets this year.
I don't want to get into the Quincy arguement; he's gone, it's irrelevant. I'm not going to waste too much time lamenting the loss of a loser who was never going to be the man anyway. Maybe his arm would not have lost it's strength in the 4th quarter of every game but he was still not going to be a significant difference for the team since he threw just as many INT's as Vinny Interceptaverde. It's just that Quincy's were because he lost his head every time he was flushed from the pocket instead of because his arm was tired. The reason was irrelevant the result was the same; an INT is an INT. The point I was making was that he was gone shortly after TC started and we had the entire preseason to get over it.

As for why BP let Drew start Thanksgiving; it was because Vinny had a bad shoulder and coule not practice that week to prepair for the game. And I seriously doubt that BP would have substituted anyone for Vinny down the stretch; he would have just offered up more lame excuses like he did with all of his questionable personnel decisions. He replaced Henson because, yes, Henson was showing his inexperience but it was a very close game and I still disagree with his decision to pull him.
 

Waffle

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Mr Cowboy said:
As much as I dislike Hanson, he is pretty much accurate in this article. It was a wasted year.

Wasted because after the 03 season he knew there were some glaring holes that needed to be addressed in the offseason, yet he went the cheap route.
Ok. I agree with you that going the cheap route in the offseason was a mistake, but perhaps not huge one. I asked myself what legitimate Free Agent other than Betrand Berry did we miss out on last season and now regret? Overpriced guys like Grant Wistrom (Seattle waaaay overpaid for him), Javon Kearse (I expect a little more than 7.5 sacks from a guy known as "Freak" for those dollars) and Antoine Winfield? Based on our depleted secondary, maybe in hindsight we would have been better served if we had gone ahead and aggressively attemped to overpay for Winfield. Like everyone always says though, hindsight is 20/20.

Mr Cowboy said:
He decided that bringing in a bunch of washed up players who played well for him in the past, was enough to make the team better.
A bunch of washed up players? I'll grant you Dedric Ward perhaps, but the only other player that looked "washed up" was Eddie George, and he didn't play for Parcells in the past. And if you believe the rumors, George was Jerry's idea and he pushed for that move.

Keyshawn Johnson was a great addition and a major upgrade over Galloway. He played injured, made great catches, and didn't cost us two Firsts in the process.

You may call Vinny a washed up player because he is 41 and yes...he did play for Parcells, but his play and production was very similar to Quincy's last season. Furthermore, what other veteran QB should Bill have brought in for the right price instead of Vinny? Brunell? Garcia? Hell, they looked much more washed up than Vinny don't you think? You could make a case for Griese NOW after playing well for Tampa, but no one can deny that he was all but off most everybody's radar screens after getting cut by Denver and Miami.

Mr Cowboy said:
This team would be much further along had he decided to spend some of the money last off season. There would be fewer holes to fill this year.
Please tell me who we could/should have signed other than Berry and maybe Winfield? They took a chance on Wiley and it backfired. Not every move works out.

Mr Cowboy said:
Then the draft didn't go well either. Sure we got Julius, which was one of very few bright spots in the season, along with Witten. But he missed badly on Rogers, Peterman got injured and Thronton couldn't get on the field ahead of our 7th rounders, and when he finally did he blew out his knee.
We traded our first round pick last year for a first round pick this year, and hopefully it won't turn into a Rogers type pick from last year.
I think you would like your second round pick to at least see the field at sometime during his rookie season, but Rogers didn't. However, I don't think it's totally fair to say Parcells "missed badly" with Rogers until we see how he does next season.
 

Mr Cowboy

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Ok. I agree with you that going the cheap route in the offseason was a mistake, but perhaps not huge one. I asked myself what legitimate Free Agent other than Betrand Berry did we miss out on last season and now regret? Overpriced guys like Grant Wistrom (Seattle waaaay overpaid for him), Javon Kearse (I expect a little more than 7.5 sacks from a guy known as "Freak" for those dollars) and Antoine Winfield? Based on our depleted secondary, maybe in hindsight we would have been better served if we had gone ahead and aggressively attemped to overpay for Winfield. Like everyone always says though, hindsight is 20/20.

I'm not saying to necessarily bring in the high priced guys, but bring someone in. Bobby Taylor expressed an interest to play here to be close to home. He would have filled a need at a reasonable price. They knoew Woody was injured before TC, yet they stood pat and relied on Dixon knowing full well that he couldn't do it. Bring in some young players that didn't cost much to help fill holes. You don't have to get only high priced FA's. But he should have brought some in to fill some of the holes.

A bunch of washed up players? I'll grant you Dedric Ward perhaps, but the only other player that looked "washed up" was Eddie George, and he didn't play for Parcells in the past. And if you believe the rumors, George was Jerry's idea and he pushed for that move.

Keyshawn Johnson was a great addition and a major upgrade over Galloway. He played injured, made great catches, and didn't cost us two Firsts in the process.

You may call Vinny a washed up player because he is 41 and yes...he did play for Parcells, but his play and production was very similar to Quincy's last season. Furthermore, what other veteran QB should Bill have brought in for the right price instead of Vinny? Brunell? Garcia? Hell, they looked much more washed up than Vinny don't you think? You could make a case for Griese NOW after playing well for Tampa, but no one can deny that he was all but off most everybody's radar screens after getting cut by Denver and Miami.

Yeah a bunch of washed up players.....Wiley was washed up, Vinny has been washed up for at least 5 years, George, washed up, Richie Anderson, (brought in 2003) is washed up and did nothing this year. Key, did well, but he is at the end of his career and will not be part of the turn around. Ward, Eaton, Ogbogu, Coleman......what good were they.

I don't know about you, but if I was going to get rid of Quincy, I would at least have made sure that I had someone better to replace him with. I don't buy that Vinny's stats were as good as Quincy's last year. One could argue that natural progression would have made Quincy a better QB this past year. Parcells knew all he had was Vinny when he cut Quincy, so why cut him? Regardless of his problem whether it was real or rumored. Many in here have gotten used to the losing, and are happy to be as good as last year. I hate the losing and I hate the idea of having to go through another year of less than mediocrity with Vinny. I don't care if you put an all pro cast around a qb, the qb will eventually have to make plays to win games. Even Dilfer made some terrific plays in the Supe Bowl to score TD's.

I
think you would like your second round pick to at least see the field at sometime during his rookie season, but Rogers didn't. However, I don't think it's totally fair to say Parcells "missed badly" with Rogers until we see how he does next season.

You're right, when you pick someone in the second round, you expect them to at least see the field. Rogers never came close to it. And it's not like he was playing behind and expected to beat out a young Erik Williams. I don't buy the excuses especially the one about not playing his natural position. Like I have mentioned before, most of our other 2 nd round pick OL played out of position their rookie year. Not only that, but several articles have been posted here indicating that Togers was a bad pick.

I'll just say this, if Campo, Gaily or anyone else would have gone through two years like this, they would have been lynched. Because Parcells is a hall of fame coach, (which he is not yet), I expect better from him. He was a knucklehead this past year in his personnel moves and coaching decisions. I hope he does his best coaching job next year, but just in looking at the qb position my hopes are not real high.
 

mr.jameswoods

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JackMagist said:
I don't want to get into the Quincy arguement; he's gone, it's irrelevant. I'm not going to waste too much time lamenting the loss of a loser who was never going to be the man anyway. Maybe his arm would not have lost it's strength in the 4th quarter of every game but he was still not going to be a significant difference for the team since he threw just as many INT's as Vinny Interceptaverde. It's just that Quincy's were because he lost his head every time he was flushed from the pocket instead of because his arm was tired.

This isn't even about Quincy and that's what you guys fail to comprehend. It's about depth. You can cut Quincy next year but if you are trying to win "now" then you don't start the season with a 41 year old, a rookie and a journeyman who has never thrown a pass in the NFL.

And let's be objective about this, Quincy was still in the development phase. I don't care how bad a quarterback you are, you will benefit from being the starter the previous year because of your experience. I agree that he would not have improved that much but he would have at least improved a little being that last year was only his third year in the NFL. Truth is, you don't know how bad or good Quincy would have played. If he stunk it up; fine give the ball back to Vinny. You don't lose anything. He did play well for the Jets in relief of Pennington so Bill decision isn't helped by that evidence.

Given the choices that I had, there is no way I cut Quincy. It's called being smart and preparing for the worst case scenario. Guess what that scenario happened on Thanksgiving when ole Bill wanted to replace Vinny and he didn't have anyone else to turn to.
 

joseephuss

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BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY said:
Agreed...But answer this one simple question: What team that loses its starting Qb (cut late in camp), starting free saftey (woody), starting RCB (Hunter), Starting Deep Threat WR (Glenn), Starting RB (JJ for over half the season), and starting Blocking TE (cambell) can overcome ALL these injuries as essential skill positions and still improve???? I'll answer this...NONE!!!

I didn't think they did a good job of bringing in a good corner back for the right side. They had to rely on an uproven guy. It is too bad that Hunter got injured because it still leaves the question of if he is good enough.

The safety spot needed to be addressed in the off season even before Woody's injury. It is not as if he was going to be around for a long time. They got stuck with Dixon and Scott because they failed to go out and find someone.

They had a deep threat in Bryant, but they traded him.

The Julius Jones injury was a tough one and that especially was seen once he returned and displayed his talents. I thought they should find a competent back up during the off season. They settled for Eddie George. He lived up to my expectations.

As far as QB. Was Quincy really the answer? That is who they were counting on? I still don't understand why he was cut, but how do you go into training camp with he and Vinny as your #1 and #2 guys.
 

mr.jameswoods

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joseephuss said:
The Julius Jones injury was a tough one and that especially was seen once he returned and displayed his talents. I thought they should find a competent back up during the off season. They settled for Eddie George. He lived up to my expectations.


Or why not start Reshard Lee? You lose nothing by testing your rookie and you gain nothing by going with your old slow veteran. Oh year....ball protection.
 

BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY

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joseephuss said:
I didn't think they did a good job of bringing in a good corner back for the right side. They had to rely on an uproven guy. It is too bad that Hunter got injured because it still leaves the question of if he is good enough.

The safety spot needed to be addressed in the off season even before Woody's injury. It is not as if he was going to be around for a long time. They got stuck with Dixon and Scott because they failed to go out and find someone.

They had a deep threat in Bryant, but they traded him.

The Julius Jones injury was a tough one and that especially was seen once he returned and displayed his talents. I thought they should find a competent back up during the off season. They settled for Eddie George. He lived up to my expectations.

As far as QB. Was Quincy really the answer? That is who they were counting on? I still don't understand why he was cut, but how do you go into training camp with he and Vinny as your #1 and #2 guys.
You still never addressed the question, you simply argued for pre-addressing and unkowns!!!
 

BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY

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mr.jameswoods said:
Except for the fact that Jimmy didn't coach the same way Parcells did. Jimmy Johnson catered to his superstars and treated them differently than the rookies. Johnsn was a politician. Parcells is a dictator who treams everyone as if they are subordinates including the guys he knows like Vinny and Keyshawn. Parcells has yelled at both players this season. Some people love that because Parcells is fair. But the truth is an old veteran doesn't like to be treated that way. Vinny and Keyshawn have worked with Parcells before but I don't think many prime free agents will come with knowledge that Parcells will talk down to them.
Wrong, Jimmy told them they would be benched too if the continued bad play or fumbles. Jimmy was a commander as well, sorry, it will not work!!! Bill expects production, Jimmy did the same exact thing, and expected his key players to produce and let them know it if they did not. You obviously do not remember Jimmy very well, and Bill is a tough coach, Jimmy was too, different personalities, but similar approach. Bill is tougher I will grant you, but you fail to mention the other side of Bill that bonds with his players and is quite close to them.
 

BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY

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JackMagist said:
Actually Carter was cut early in camp; the first week in fact before the first preseason game. And I don't think that was such a factor since his numbers were similar to Vinny's. Still your point about the injuries and players losses is well taken. I think that one thing that is overlooked is the loss of Willie Blade (regardless of the reason) he played well the year before and we missed that level of play in the middle this year.

But the fact that the other guys (except Woody) will be coming back is reason for optomism for next year. Optomism that is IF we do a good job in offseason filling the other holes on the team.
Early or late Quincy was cut...what difference does it really make substantially speaking??? The cut affected the teams chemistry.

I agree on Blade.
 

mr.jameswoods

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BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY said:
Wrong, Jimmy told them they would be benched too if the continued bad play or fumbles. Jimmy was a commander as well, sorry, it will not work!!! Bill expects production, Jimmy did the same exact thing, and expected his key players to produce and let them know it if they did not. You obviously do not remember Jimmy very well, and Bill is a tough coach, Jimmy was too, different personalities, but similar approach. Bill is tougher I will grant you, but you fail to mention the other side of Bill that bonds with his players and is quite close to them.

You have no clue what you are talking about. I didn't want to say that earlier but since you are calling me out, I won't be polite.

It's a well known fact Jimmy favored certain players on his team. If you don't believe me, ask anyone else on this forum. Jimmy was only a disciplinarian with his rookies and unproven players. He admitted to treating players differently. Jimmy believed that certain players earned the right for a little more leeway. Parcells doesn't believe in this. He treats everyone the same regardless. This is what you fail to grasp. Parcells intentionally berates star players because he wants to make certain everyone knows he is in charge. I remember Drew Bledsoe would talk about how Parcells would belittle him after he had a good game just to keep him humble. Jimmy Johnson would never do that. Jimmy Johnson would massage the egos of his best players while being a disciplinarian with the other players. This is a major difference in their philosophy. And this is why a star free agent would love to play for Jimmy because he knows he won't be spoken down to.

Players were willing to deal with Parcells ascerbic ways because he won. However, now that Dallas has lost its championship form, it's doubtful some of the leagues best free agents would come to Dallas if a contending team made a similar offer.
 

Hostile

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BPARCELL'SRULESUBOY said:
Early or late Quincy was cut...what difference does it really make substantially speaking??? The cut affected the teams chemistry.
I have yet to see or hear any team member come out and claim this. One minor comment made to a member here, but certainly no one on the team publicly stated this. I have heard this from "the Jet's" fans, but have not heard it anywhere close to coming from the team.

Let's play devil's advocate now and assume that it did in fact affect the team's chemistry. Let me ask this in defense of Parcells' and Jones' decisions. Should it have? I mean let's be serious here, we're talking about rumors of drug use being behind the reasoning. The team rallied around that? If so then we have some serious problems ahead.

Truth be told this "reasoning" doesn't give me much to hang my hopes on if the reason the team fell apart is that they became afraid to jointly hit the bong. Pretty damned bleak if you ask me. If that is true it would make me want to applaud Bill and Jerry more than ever. They need to finish that drug war if this is what it is.

I also have to assume that at least some of the players on the team are not addicts and would feel a sense of relief that the drugs were taken away and would have played harder. Unless of course you believe our entire team is partaking. You getting a sense of how hopeless a picture this philosophy is painting?

That is why I put no stock in it at all. I just don't. I find the very hint at belief in it to be laughable. Again, one player on the team told a member here and called it "karma." Maybe it's just me but I don't believe that Buddhist and Hindu Gods punished this team for cutting a Christian QB.

Now let's push this a little farther in the question of should this have affected the team chemistry. We can even remove the concerns over the drug rumors if you want. Aren't they supposed to be professionals? Since when did it matter if someone else was on the team or not and whether you had to do your job?

You see, the very hint at this being a reason behind their lackluster play just kind of makes my blood boil, drug rumors or not. I don't want a team full of lace panties cry babies. I want a team of professionals who can shrug off an injury or a waiver and go on. Guys who lace up their boots a little tighter and get the job done. What this philosophy is suggesting is that we have players who need pacifiers. I mean that's what it boils down to if they can't move past a personnel decision and do their jobs.

You guys who embrace and espouse this thinking really worry me. You make me think our entire team is weak minded and has issues with dependency. That kind of cloying neediness doesn't make me envision a football team. It makes me envision emotional support groups in need of group hugs and commiseration over lifelong emotional needs. No thank you very much.

What is even more baffling to me is that the biggest difference between 2003 and 2004 had nothing to do with the offense where "the Jet" played. 289 points scored in 2003, 293 in 2004. 322.6 yards per game in 2003, 324.8 YPG in 2004. I mean from where I sit that looks like stasis.

On the other hand, let's look at defense where he did not play. 260 points allowed in 2003, 405 in 2004. 253.5 YPG allowed, #1 in the whole NFL in 2003, 330.3 YPG allowed in 2004.

Maybe you can explain to me why the loss of chemistry is most evident on the side of the ball not played by the "reason" in question? I've been wondering about it for months now. Every time this philosophy shows itself I become more perplexed on how it can be accepted and embraced.

For the longest time I have felt that issues facing this team were lack of personnel. Read the real "reasons" here and I discover it is really a lack of Kleenex. Hey didn't Parcells say that last year Bradie James could barely lift a box of Kleenex? Maybe this thinking is on to something after all. I mean a team full of ultra needy pansies like this would need a lot of Kleenex.
 
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