Drew Pearson; what is the deal?

[Irvin88_4life]

Or Haley or Bettis, frankly...

Haley I can see, but Bettis no way. I still wouldn't vote then in over some of the 70s Cowboys players

 

[Irvin88_4life]

If you're going to disagree at least attempt to make an argument in favor of Waters. I can make a number of arguments against him especially for the HOF. Some of you think half the Cowboys roster through the years should be in the HOF and ROH. Charlie Waters wasn't remotely close to a HOF player it's not even debatable. Explain how a corner can be a HOF player who only made 3 pro bowls, had only 41 int's and never once made an all-pro team? There's only 24 DB's safeties/corners in the HOF and you honestly believe Charlie Waters should be amongst that elite group? You obviously don't realize what a great honor it is to be elected to the HOF. In an interview a few years ago Waters himself admitted he didn't have the speed to play corner. He said he had trouble covering fast WR's. He mentioned the roasting he took vs the Rams in 73 and how Tom Landry came to his defense saying he wished every player on the team played as hard as he did. Landry saw a lot of himself in Waters a scrappy player who was slow but was vey football savvy. Landry tried turning Waters into a all pro corner but he didn't have the speed to stay with speedy WR's so Landry converted him to strong safety where he played very well. Waters was a good tackler by necessity and was much better in coverage as a safety not having to stay with quick, fast WR's. He was like a coach on the field for the Cowboys Doomsday II defense. As a corner he needed a lot of help from Cliff Harris and even Harris couldn't keep up with Harold Jackson in that 1973 game vs the Rams. Both Harris and Waters took a lot of heat for their performance. Below is a poor quality video highlight reel of that game with no sound.

As for the ROH again Waters wasn't ROH worthy because it's a special honor that has eluded even better Cowboys players than him. The ROH was originally designed to honor the players who helped pave the way for the Cowboys championship teams which is why Don Meredith and Don Perkins were inducted. Neither were "great" NFL players but they were excellent players for the Cowboys and were part of the first real good teams the Cowboys had. As the Cowboys started winning championships the criteria for the ROH changed especially when Jerry bought the team. Every player he's added to the ROH is in the HOF except for Lee Roy Jordan. Darren Woodson will be the next player inducted into the ROH who's not in the HOF but at least a few arguments can be made for Jordan being in the HOF and even some for Woody but no argument can be made for Charlie Waters. The opinion I'm giving you is coming from someone who watched 10 of Waters 12 NFL seasons.

I never said every player should be HOF but why should I say anything because you know my thoughts and your opinions are the only one that matters. Again I disagree and will leave it at that. .......no explanation in better terms

 

[KJJ]

I never said every player should be HOF but why should I say anything because you know my thoughts and your opinions are the only one that matters. Again I disagree and will leave it at that. .......no explanation in better terms

Didn't say you said every player should be in the HOF but you must be one of those who thinks a majority of the Cowboys should be inducted if you think Charlie Waters should be in the HOF. If you think he was a HOF player you should be able to make at least one argument as to why but you refuse to give a reason to anyone because your opinion is based purely on bias.

 

[KJJ]

Haley I can see, but Bettis no way. I still wouldn't vote then in over some of the 70s Cowboys players

It's easy to see why Bettis was inducted he's 6th on the all-time rushing list ahead of Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett and Jim Brown. Only 5 RB's in NFL history have rushed for more yards than Bettis and every RB amongst the top 10 all-time rushers are in the HOF.

 

[zrinkill]

I still don't understand how Haley got into the ROH before Too Tall.

i dont understand how a Haley got in the Ring of Honor when he spent most of his career on another team,.

 

[KJJ]

Here's a list of players that should definitely be in and I'd like to hear why you think it's fine that they aren't in the HOF.

Drew Pearson
Harvey Martin
Chuck Howley
Lee Roy Jordan
Daryl Johnston
Nate Newton
Darren Woodson
Jay Novacek
Mark Tuinei
Cliff Harris
Charlie Waters
Tom Rafferty
Ralph Neely
Jethro Pugh
Tony Hill
John Niland
Cornell Green

Daryl Johnston in the HOF? LOL He was a blocking FB who never rushed for more than 212 yards in a season and had 8 career TD's. His career rushing average was 3.2 and you think he should definitely be in the HOF? I liked moose and he had a very important role with the Cowboys but it's all about numbers at his position. Regardless how many holes he helped open up for Emmitt the only blockers that will be elected to the HOF play on the OL. As for Jay Novacek he did very little his first 5 years in the league with the Cardinals. He was a great addition to the Cowboys and fit their system but his position is about numbers and there's too many TE's ahead of him who had more catches and yards. He was a real good player for the Cowboys but not a HOF caliber player. Already discussed Charlie Waters and Drew Pearson. Harvey Martin was a terrific player but he got overshadowed by Randy White. Of the 70's players not in the ROH he's the most deserving in my opinion and an argument could be made for him for the HOF. Unfortunately sacks weren't an official stat until 1982 so Martin only got credited with 10 sacks. He had 113 career sacks which was a franchise record at the time including 20 sacks in 1977.

DE's didn't get as many opportunities for sacks during Martin's era with offenses leaning on the running game so his sack totals were pretty impressive. As for Tony Hill he was an excellent receiver who's numbers were very similar to Drew Pearson's but he didn't make as many memorable plays as Pearson. He'll best be remembered for the fade he caught in the endzone from Roger Staubach that beat Washington in the season finale in 1979. That ended up being Staubach's last regular season pass and TD. Although Pearson and Hills numbers were very similar only Pearson was a HOF caliber player due to the number of clutch/impactful/memorable plays he made. As for Cornell Green he was a terrific corner/safety who had speed but he only had 34 int's and that total isn't going to get it done for the HOF. Don't have time to go through the rest of the list but of the players I didn't cover arguments could only be made for Jordan, Howley and Harris for the HOF.

 

[perrykemp]

Daryl Johnston in the HOF? LOL He was a blocking FB who never rushed for more than 212 yards in a season and had 8 career TD's. His career rushing average was 3.2 and you think he should definitely be in the HOF? I liked moose and he had a very important role with the Cowboys but it's all about numbers at his position.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or another on whether Moose should be in the HOF, however, I'd like to say this -- shouldn't the assessment of a fullback be 95% based on their blocking ability?

 

[KJJ]

I don't have a strong opinion one way or another on whether Moose should be in the HOF, however, I'd like to say this -- shouldn't the assessment of a fullback be 95% based on their blocking ability?

The assessment of a FB is based mostly on their blocking by NFL teams. Moose was drafted in the 2nd round primarily due to his blocking but the HOF doesn't assess FB's or RB's based on their blocking ability they're judged by their rushing totals.

 

[jaybird]

How does a guy who was one selected to the all-70s decade team not make it to the Hall of Fame?

So many memorable plays, too.

Thats the thing. He made so many clutch plays in big games- hence his nicknmae was "Clutch". He didnt have huge career numbers and he career was stop about 2 years short. The 49er championship came" the catch" he was almost the hero stop by literally one finger. Perhaps if he breaks that tackle we win another superbowl and he would have already been in the HOF. Regardless Drew is a true Cowboy ICON.

 

[KJJ]

There's only 5 FB's listed in the HOF and they all had solid rushing totals. Moose only rushed for 753 yards and 8 TD's with a 3.2 career rushing average. He was a great blocker and a pretty good receiver but let's be real his numbers weren't even close to HOF caliber.

 

[Plankton]

There are 11 true Cowboys players in the HOF.

ELEVEN.

As many great players and teams that the Cowboys have had and there's only 11 HOFers? That's ridiculous.

Here's a list of players that should definitely be in and I'd like to hear why you think it's fine that they aren't in the HOF.

Drew Pearson
Harvey Martin
Chuck Howley
Lee Roy Jordan
Daryl Johnston
Nate Newton
Darren Woodson
Jay Novacek
Mark Tuinei
Cliff Harris
Charlie Waters
Tom Rafferty
Ralph Neely
Jethro Pugh
Tony Hill
John Niland
Cornell Green

Based on the HOF list, there are 15 Cowboy representatives in the Hall of Fame that have significant accomplishments as Cowboys on their resumes. That list includes Tom Landry and Tex Schramm. Charles Haley and Deion Sanders are on the list as well. If you dispute their listing as members of the Cowboys, the HOF disagrees.

There are only 8 other teams with as many or more representatives than the Cowboys. They are:

Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears - 96 seasons played, 9 world championships, 28 Hall of Famers
Green Bay Packers - 95 seasons played, 13 world championships, 23 Hall of Famers
Pittsburgh Steelers - 83 seasons played, 6 world championships, 21 Hall of Famers
New York Giants - 91 seasons played, 8 world championships, 20 Hall of Famers
Boston/Washington Commanders - 84 seasons played, 5 world championships, 19 Hall of Famers
Cleveland Browns - 70 seasons played, 8 world championships, 16 Hall of Famers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleveland/Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams - 78 seasons played, 3 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers
Oakland/Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders - 56 seasons played, 3 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers
Dallas Cowboys - 56 seasons played, 5 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers

When you consider the number of seasons played, it would stand to reason that the Cowboys would have fewer than some of the other teams. The Bears, Packers and Giants were good teams for many decades, and accumulated a significant number of championships. On that basis, seeing their numbers isn't surprising. The Steelers benefited from winning 4 in 6 years - between 1933 and 1972, the Steelers were one of the worst franchises in football. Some of their members can be argued, but their success can't be disputed. If the Cowboys had won one or both of their Super Bowl meetings, the numbers could be different. The Commanders were successful in the 1930s/40s, and in the 1970s/80s. Some numbers of HOFs can also be disputed. The Browns were the dominant team of the late 40s/early 50s, and produced a good amount of all-time great players.

Looking at the list, based on years of existence and overall success, the Cowboys have done quite well for themselves when you consider that no team that has been in existence for as long as they have has more representatives in the Hall of Fame. The Raiders tied the Cowboys. If people want to dispute the 70s and 90s teams not getting their due, consider that the 49ers, who won 4 Super Bowls in the 1980s, and 5 total, has fewer reps than the Cowboys.

Every team in the league can produce gripes about players who have been overlooked. Here's how I view it with regards to your list of oversights: the Cowboys have the Ring Of Honor. That honor goes to the very best of the Cowboy organization over the history of the team. Ask yourself this - if a player isn't recognized by their own team as being worthy of making their own ROH, which signifies the best of the Dallas Cowboys, how can they legitimately be Hall of Fame oversights, which represents the best of the best of the entire sport? That doesn't seem to make sense.

On that basis, from your list, Daryl Johnston, Jay Novacek, Mark Tuinei, Charlie Waters, Tom Rafferty, Jethro Pugh and Tony Hill automatically fail the sniff test. It's not to say that any of them weren't very good, or even underappreciated players. They just aren't at a Hall of Fame level. I don't think that any of them would feel that they are if you were to ask them.

The others on your list, here's my views in a little more detail (BOLD - should be a HOF enshrinee):

Drew Pearson - No brainer, should be in. Was a clutch wide receiver, and was part of some seminal plays in the franchises history. What hurts him is his lack of production in the playoffs, his statistical drop off post-Roger Staubach, and the Cowboys losing both matchups to the Steelers in the Super Bowl in the 1970s.

Harvey Martin - I'm 50 50 on Martin. His 1977 season was one for the ages - team record in sacks, All-Pro selection, NFL Defensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl Co-MVP. He was named to the Pro Bowl four times. But, once the rules on blocking changed in 1978, where open hand blocking was now legal, Martin's effectiveness went down. He was no longer as dominant a player. I definitely think that he should be Ring of Honor, but for the Hall of Fame, gun to my head, I think he comes up short.

Chuck Howley - To me, another no brainer, and quite possibly one of the worst oversights of all time. Six time Pro Bowler, Five time All-Pro selection, only MVP of a Super Bowl from a losing team. Howley is the very definition of a Hall of Famer.

Lee Roy Jordan - Jordan was a terrific player, the heart and soul of the Cowboy defenses he played on, and one tough SOB. He made five Pro Bowls and one All Pro team. The problem that he has, and is likely the reason why he hasn't strongly been considered for the HOF, is that he played during the glory days of the MLB position. Jordan played during the era of Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke, Joe Schmidt, Willie Lanier and Jack Lambert came in the league as he was leaving it. Tommy Nobis, who was another great MLB from that era, also can't get in. When looking at the above list of contemporaries, and considering that, IMO, a HOF player is one who comes to mind when thinking of the best player at a position during his era, Jordan, as good as he was, doesn't measure up.

Nate Newton - Newton is a borderline case. He was a six time Pro Bowler, and a two time All-Pro. When he was good, he was outstanding. Between 1992 and 1996, he was as good as there was in the game. Prior to 1992 and after 1996? Newton was not nearly the same player. His drop off post-1996 was pretty severe, and that tarnishes his resume.

Darren Woodson - To me, I think he's a HOF player. Woodson provided LB run support and terrific man coverage from the slot position. He was also on every special teams unit. He was ahead of his time, and allowed the Cowboy defenses a lot of matchup flexibility. Two things hurt his cause, and will prevent him from getting in. First, as good as he was, he didn't make a lot of turnover causing plays. For his career, he had 23 interceptions and 12 forced fumbles in 13 seasons. That's not an overwhelming number. Second, not making the 1990s All Decade Team (Ronnie Lott never should have made the team - horrible decision there) will hurt his overall view by the masses. That being said, having watched every game he played in, his value went beyond numbers.

Cliff Harris - Another no brainer, and brutal oversight. Six Pro Bowls, three All-Pro selections, All Decade safety of the 1970s, all in 10 seasons of play. Harris became the best player in the Cowboy secondary once Mel Renfro's play began to slip in 1976. I'm amazed that he didn't make it.

Ralph Neely - Another player that I am 50 50 on, but I think ultimately that he should be in. He made three All-Pro teams and two Pro Bowls, and excelled at both LT and RT. What is keeping him out is a reputation for holding quite a bit, as well as not being in the ROH, but if Rayfield Wright is in playing a less difficult position of RT, then Neely, who slid to LT to make room for Wright, should be in as well. Ask Roger Staubach how valuable he was.

John Niland - Another borderline player. Six time Pro Bowler in nine seasons as a starter in Dallas, three time All Pro selection. Devastatingly fierce run blocker, and great at leading backs through the hole when pulling. When considering Niland, not being in the ROH hurts a lot. Also, when you consider that a contemporary in Jerry Kramer, who made five All Pro teams and was All Decade in the 1960s, can't get in the HOF, and Kramer was a superior player to Niland, it's hard to say that he should be in the HOF.

Cornell Green - A very underrated player who excelled at both corner and safety. It's weird to think that Mel Renfro is considered by many to be the best cornerback in Cowboys history, but Green played corner for longer than Renfro, and Renfro played safety for a good amount of his career. Five time Pro Bowler and three time All-Pro. Where he likely comes up short with voters is that he isn't in the ROH, and he was such an unsung player who played on a defense dominated by Bob Lilly, Chuck Howley and Mel Renfro, and he didn't make many game changing plays in the playoffs. That being said, I think that he warrants strong consideration for the HOF, despite the negatives. He most certainly should be in the Ring of Honor.

That about sums up my feelings on the matter. Keep in mind that every team has players who have been overlooked that fans feel a strong objection to. It's not a Cowboy only phenomenon.

 

[irishline]

Smith had already had a HOF career when that drop happened. He had retired after 15 years and Landry talked him out of retirement to play the 79 season because Jay Saldi broke his arm and the Cowboys needed a replacement. He didn't catch a single pass during the regular season that year but was used as a blocker in a 2 TE formation. He made 3 catches including a TD vs Atlanta in the playoffs and that got the Cowboys looking to him as a receiver which led to one of the biggest SB gaffs ever.

I know all that. My statement wasn't an indictment of his HOF credentials or why he was on the team. The "why"question was was merely why did he have to drop it lol.

 

[KJJ]

I know all that. My statement wasn't an indictment of his HOF credentials or why he was on the team. The "why"question was was merely why did he have to drop it lol.

Wasn't sure where you were coming from because most posts on Jackie Smith are indictment of him and his HOF credentials. I'm sure Smith has asked himself through the years why him because that play left a deep scar on his career and it's the play he's most remembered for. The only time his name is ever mentioned is in regards to that drop in the SB. Some Cowboy fans think he wasn't even a good player and can't understand why he's in the HOF all because of that one play. A poll was started once asking who the most hated Cowboy player was and Jackie Smiths name came up more than anyone.

 

[perrykemp]

Based on the HOF list, there are 15 Cowboy representatives in the Hall of Fame that have significant accomplishments as Cowboys on their resumes. That list includes Tom Landry and Tex Schramm. Charles Haley and Deion Sanders are on the list as well. If you dispute their listing as members of the Cowboys, the HOF disagrees.

There are only 8 other teams with as many or more representatives than the Cowboys. They are:

Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears - 96 seasons played, 9 world championships, 28 Hall of Famers
Green Bay Packers - 95 seasons played, 13 world championships, 23 Hall of Famers
Pittsburgh Steelers - 83 seasons played, 6 world championships, 21 Hall of Famers
New York Giants - 91 seasons played, 8 world championships, 20 Hall of Famers
Boston/Washington Commanders - 84 seasons played, 5 world championships, 19 Hall of Famers
Cleveland Browns - 70 seasons played, 8 world championships, 16 Hall of Famers
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cleveland/Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams - 78 seasons played, 3 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers
Oakland/Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders - 56 seasons played, 3 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers
Dallas Cowboys - 56 seasons played, 5 world championships, 15 Hall of Famers

When you consider the number of seasons played, it would stand to reason that the Cowboys would have fewer than some of the other teams. The Bears, Packers and Giants were good teams for many decades, and accumulated a significant number of championships. On that basis, seeing their numbers isn't surprising. The Steelers benefited from winning 4 in 6 years - between 1933 and 1972, the Steelers were one of the worst franchises in football. Some of their members can be argued, but their success can't be disputed. If the Cowboys had won one or both of their Super Bowl meetings, the numbers could be different. The Commanders were successful in the 1930s/40s, and in the 1970s/80s. Some numbers of HOFs can also be disputed. The Browns were the dominant team of the late 40s/early 50s, and produced a good amount of all-time great players.

Looking at the list, based on years of existence and overall success, the Cowboys have done quite well for themselves when you consider that no team that has been in existence for as long as they have has more representatives in the Hall of Fame. The Raiders tied the Cowboys. If people want to dispute the 70s and 90s teams not getting their due, consider that the 49ers, who won 4 Super Bowls in the 1980s, and 5 total, has fewer reps than the Cowboys.

Every team in the league can produce gripes about players who have been overlooked. Here's how I view it with regards to your list of oversights: the Cowboys have the Ring Of Honor. That honor goes to the very best of the Cowboy organization over the history of the team. Ask yourself this - if a player isn't recognized by their own team as being worthy of making their own ROH, which signifies the best of the Dallas Cowboys, how can they legitimately be Hall of Fame oversights, which represents the best of the best of the entire sport? That doesn't seem to make sense.

On that basis, from your list, Daryl Johnston, Jay Novacek, Mark Tuinei, Charlie Waters, Tom Rafferty, Jethro Pugh and Tony Hill automatically fail the sniff test. It's not to say that any of them weren't very good, or even underappreciated players. They just aren't at a Hall of Fame level. I don't think that any of them would feel that they are if you were to ask them.

The others on your list, here's my views in a little more detail (BOLD - should be a HOF enshrinee):

Drew Pearson - No brainer, should be in. Was a clutch wide receiver, and was part of some seminal plays in the franchises history. What hurts him is his lack of production in the playoffs, his statistical drop off post-Roger Staubach, and the Cowboys losing both matchups to the Steelers in the Super Bowl in the 1970s.

Harvey Martin - I'm 50 50 on Martin. His 1977 season was one for the ages - team record in sacks, All-Pro selection, NFL Defensive Player of the Year, Super Bowl Co-MVP. He was named to the Pro Bowl four times. But, once the rules on blocking changed in 1978, where open hand blocking was now legal, Martin's effectiveness went down. He was no longer as dominant a player. I definitely think that he should be Ring of Honor, but for the Hall of Fame, gun to my head, I think he comes up short.

Chuck Howley - To me, another no brainer, and quite possibly one of the worst oversights of all time. Six time Pro Bowler, Five time All-Pro selection, only MVP of a Super Bowl from a losing team. Howley is the very definition of a Hall of Famer.

Lee Roy Jordan - Jordan was a terrific player, the heart and soul of the Cowboy defenses he played on, and one tough SOB. He made five Pro Bowls and one All Pro team. The problem that he has, and is likely the reason why he hasn't strongly been considered for the HOF, is that he played during the glory days of the MLB position. Jordan played during the era of Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke, Joe Schmidt, Willie Lanier and Jack Lambert came in the league as he was leaving it. Tommy Nobis, who was another great MLB from that era, also can't get in. When looking at the above list of contemporaries, and considering that, IMO, a HOF player is one who comes to mind when thinking of the best player at a position during his era, Jordan, as good as he was, doesn't measure up.

Nate Newton - Newton is a borderline case. He was a six time Pro Bowler, and a two time All-Pro. When he was good, he was outstanding. Between 1992 and 1996, he was as good as there was in the game. Prior to 1992 and after 1996? Newton was not nearly the same player. His drop off post-1996 was pretty severe, and that tarnishes his resume.

Darren Woodson - To me, I think he's a HOF player. Woodson provided LB run support and terrific man coverage from the slot position. He was also on every special teams unit. He was ahead of his time, and allowed the Cowboy defenses a lot of matchup flexibility. Two things hurt his cause, and will prevent him from getting in. First, as good as he was, he didn't make a lot of turnover causing plays. For his career, he had 23 interceptions and 12 forced fumbles in 13 seasons. That's not an overwhelming number. Second, not making the 1990s All Decade Team (Ronnie Lott never should have made the team - horrible decision there) will hurt his overall view by the masses. That being said, having watched every game he played in, his value went beyond numbers.

Cliff Harris - Another no brainer, and brutal oversight. Six Pro Bowls, three All-Pro selections, All Decade safety of the 1970s, all in 10 seasons of play. Harris became the best player in the Cowboy secondary once Mel Renfro's play began to slip in 1976. I'm amazed that he didn't make it.

Ralph Neely - Another player that I am 50 50 on, but I think ultimately that he should be in. He made three All-Pro teams and two Pro Bowls, and excelled at both LT and RT. What is keeping him out is a reputation for holding quite a bit, as well as not being in the ROH, but if Rayfield Wright is in playing a less difficult position of RT, then Neely, who slid to LT to make room for Wright, should be in as well. Ask Roger Staubach how valuable he was.

John Niland - Another borderline player. Six time Pro Bowler in nine seasons as a starter in Dallas, three time All Pro selection. Devastatingly fierce run blocker, and great at leading backs through the hole when pulling. When considering Niland, not being in the ROH hurts a lot. Also, when you consider that a contemporary in Jerry Kramer, who made five All Pro teams and was All Decade in the 1960s, can't get in the HOF, and Kramer was a superior player to Niland, it's hard to say that he should be in the HOF.

Cornell Green - A very underrated player who excelled at both corner and safety. It's weird to think that Mel Renfro is considered by many to be the best cornerback in Cowboys history, but Green played corner for longer than Renfro, and Renfro played safety for a good amount of his career. Five time Pro Bowler and three time All-Pro. Where he likely comes up short with voters is that he isn't in the ROH, and he was such an unsung player who played on a defense dominated by Bob Lilly, Chuck Howley and Mel Renfro, and he didn't make many game changing plays in the playoffs. That being said, I think that he warrants strong consideration for the HOF, despite the negatives. He most certainly should be in the Ring of Honor.

That about sums up my feelings on the matter. Keep in mind that every team has players who have been overlooked that fans feel a strong objection to. It's not a Cowboy only phenomenon.

I applaud the time, effort, and overall content in this post.

 

[JakeCamp12]

I think most anti-Cowboys voters see 15 players inducted and they have a small bias of letting any more in. I think Pearson and Howley belong in, the others you can make arguments for or against that can be pretty compelling. To me, the guy that doesn't belong in is Joe Namath. If you take out the Super Bowl III victory, his stats are terrible and he never won anything after that game. He was inducted solely on one game and being a personality.